Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment

Electronic Intifada should be deprecated

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Moved to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Electronic Intifada.

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In this article titled "German envoy admits he spread lie about 7 October mass rapes". They imply that the Germany ambassador lied about mass rapes. In reality, he only apologized for believing a story which was not corroborated correctly. it is a single story and no where he mentions "mass rapes". EI is lying openly. This should be enough for them to be deprecated given that they are used as a reliable source for A-I conflict. EI is extremely hyper partisan that it should not continue being used as a reliable source. LuffyDe (talk) 19:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

This seems a borderline WP:ECP violation, but there have been RFCs about EI in recent months. Remsense ‥ 论 19:57, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@LuffyDe and Remsense: This is off-topic for this page, which is for discussing improvements to the page Wikipedia:Requests for comment. In fact, the question appears to be something that should go to WP:RSN. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I would move it there. LuffyDe (talk) 22:34, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Support and suggestions for improving a draft RFC around whether advocacy groups can be used for WP:BLP or if they count as WP:SPS

User:Bluethricecreamman/SPS_RFC

This is part of a few discussions[1][2] around whether literature from advocacy groups can count as WP:SPS, especially in the context of WP:BLPSPS.

Current discussions total is about 1.4 WP:Tomats long, and I haven't had a good chance to really parse everything in the discussions out.

I'm looking to: 1) Make this RFC more succinct/formatted correctly. 2) Figure out if the proposed language should belong in the RFC to update a longstanding essay, WP:USESPS, or just drop it. 3) Trying to see how vague/abstract the question should be.

I suspect there is no RFC that would answer the discussions entirely and that debates will last longer, but I am looking for the question that provides the most information about what current community consensus is, and provides a useful framework to debate around. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

RfC metadiscussion

I reverted the recent addition of a sentence saying that debates about an RfC are not allowed in the RfC discussion, because it sounds like this is forbidding discussion of such things as whether the RfC is a waste of people's time because it's not timely or the question is too vague to yield useful comments or the question is biased. These are all important discussions, and we don't state any better place to have it. It's true that such discussion does not answer the request for comment, as it is not about the topic of the request, but the talk page section where those comments go seems like an appropriate place for it.

I think we should, if we don't already, advise people to try to have those discussions before creating the RfC.

If there is some other kind of debate that we want to discourage in the RfC discussion, we need to be more specific. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 18:19, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

This relates to an RFC on RSN, see WP:RSN#RfC on People’s Daily. There is no need for the policy change, it wouldn't be helpful to block such discussion and prior discussion is what was missing in this case. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

AFAIK the only kinds of debate that we want to discourage in RFC are behavioral problems. So long as people are following ordinary rules about participation, then whether their responses are what the OP wants to hear vs saying that it is a bad question is not really something we need to constrain.

I can imagine certain people (e.g., limited English skills, limited social/communication skills) would prefer a straight-up vote with no explanation, but that's not what RFC does. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:10, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I think you missed the point of the rule being proposed -- it isn't about what kinds of things are OK in any RfC discussion; it's about off-topic discussion. While there is nothing wrong with discussing flavors of ice cream in an RfC discussion, we don't want to see them in a discussion where the question is, "Is The People's Daily a reliable source"? By the same token, metadiscussion (discussion about the discussion) is off-topic; it is not under the topic on which comments were requested. Explaining a vote is not metadiscussion (but arguing about whether people should vote is). While I think metadiscussion is appropriate for RfCs in spite of it not being the comments that were requested, I do see why someone would think that discussion should go somewhere else. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 18:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that meta-discussion about the RFC is off topic. Meta-discussion could include:

• Should this RFC be happening (now, or at all)?
• Is this question clear, concise, neutral, understandable?
• Are there any prior RFCs or other discussions that should be noted?
• Comments about vote counts and themes in the replies.
• Discussions about when and how to extend, end, or modify an RFC.

I can understand someone wanting those comments to not happen/be visible to future participants (especially if that person disagrees), but they are IMO permissible and sometimes very valuable. Bryan, I'm glad you reverted that inappropriate claim. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

+1 agree to the revert. Folks can always debate appropriateness of an RFC. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

RFC signer

What is the current consensus on whether an RFC should be signed with the filer's username? I see there was a discussion about this in 2018, where most agreed that the filer should be identified. Asking this question after an RFC was left unsigned here, which although is in line with the RFC information page, is a rare occurrence and obscures accountability whenever it is required. I think the RFC information should be changed to reflect the consensus of editors. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:19, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

There was a discussion on this a couple of months ago. The opinion seemed to be that it is acceptable, even sometimes beneficial for them not to be signed, as it let’s editors come to an opinion on the question without being prejudiced by their opinion of the opener.

It’s not all that rare; about 9% are unsigned. BilledMammal (talk) 10:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

9% is rare. They can avoid prejudice by having the statement filed by an admin for example, not necessarily by having an empty signature. I think after all these discussions an RFC on the way to open an RFC is needed. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Given page history is publicly accessible, I don’t understand the line "obscures accountability" - if you want to know, can’t you just check the history? BilledMammal (talk) 10:52, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

If the RfC question is posed in a perfectly neutral way, it shouldn't be possible to determine the opinion of the opener from the question. The problem comes when a non-neutral question is unsigned, not when a neutral question is unsigned. Requiring a signature will encourage the opener to be more careful in drafting the question. I could imagine an exception for committee-drafted RfCs like we have on VPP sometimes, but otherwise I think that everything that appears on any type of discussion page should indicate who put it there. An RfC on this would be interesting, but I think VPP would be the right place and it would need a discussion first. Zero^talk 11:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

This assumption is false. Some editors are well-known for holding certain viewpoints (e.g., pro-infobox, anti-pseudoscience), and as a result, merely adding our names makes it possible to determine the opinion of the opener. The username can also act like waving the proverbial red flag in front of a bull: "Oh, him. I'd better go vote against whatever that is" or "My friend started an RFC. I should go help her win". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: I know this argument and I don't believe it. There is no evidence that any appreciable number of votes occur other than on account of the opinion/POV of the voter. The argument also ignores existing votes. In most cases the originator votes, so if someone was to choose whether/how to vote on account of their opinion of the originator, the originator's vote is much more likely to be the motive. Zero^talk 00:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

We could argue all day about how many is an "appreciable number", but we seem to agree that it actually does happen sometimes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

That is why I mentioned obscure not prevent. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

All of that was mentioned in the prior discussion. Another argument against signing an RfC is just a philosophical one: The request isn't personal, so there's nothing to sign. The requester isn't a secret, it's just not part of the request. It's like the reason that you don't sign a Wikipedia article when you write one. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 18:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

90% + of people who do RFCs sign them. Selfstudier (talk) 19:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Articles are not signed because they are joint work and public-facing. Also because wiki usernames are meaningless to the readership. Also because articles would be a horrible mess after many edits. None of those reasons apply to RfCs, so the analogy fails. Zero^talk 00:54, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough. There are enough other reasons not to sign a Wikipedia article that I should not have used it as an analogy. For me, the main reason not to sign a Wikipedia article is that it isn't personal, like some people believe about their RfC requests. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 18:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Just woke up one day and thought I will make a non personal RFC about something I don't care about, right? Selfstudier (talk) 18:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

RFCs can be joint work, too.

I think the case you need to make is not "Under ordinary circumstances, signing an RFC is normal and desirable" but "I can hereby prove that under no circumstance whatsoever is it appropriate for an RFC question to be displayed in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/All without at least the wrong username". Because that's what is suggested above: That it would be preferable to have the RFC misleadingly signed by someone who is not actually asking the RFC question ("having the statement filed by an admin for example") than to have it unsigned. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Exceptions are fine, we can note those. Otherwise, simply follow common practice and sign, no-one will complain about that. Selfstudier (talk) 16:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

The problem isn't that nobody complains about the most common practice. The problem is that sometimes the most common practice results in more harm than benefit. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Apparently that's only in theory. Do you have some examples of such harm? Selfstudier (talk) 16:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure: I've personally felt drawn to oppose whatever is being recommended because I recognize the username in the question. I'd like to think that I'm enough of an adult to consider the question fairly or to walk away, but I'm also enough of an adult to recognize that an RFC signed by User:TeeteringOnTBAN is not going to get the same response as the same one from User:Unknown or User:Friend. How about you? Are you a paragon of virtue who is never biased by reputation and past experiences with people, or maybe you just have a hard time remembering names? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:53, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Every RFC is like that in my area. Selfstudier (talk) 19:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the precipitating event:

• @Makeandtoss, when you say "accountability", you mean "knowing who to blame for starting an RFC about removing a sentence you added", right?
• I wonder if we should take quite the opposite approach, and recommend against signing RFCs in articles classifed as Wikipedia:Contentious topics.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Unnecessary, we have lots of RFCs without any problems, it's just the unsigned ones we complain about. Selfstudier (talk) 16:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Wrong, I never complain about unsigned RfCs (undated RfCs I will add a timestamp to), but I often complain about RfCs that are failing in some other way; sometimes I fix these up because I suspect that the filer might not understand my explanation. Examples: Special:Diff/1256748178; Special:Diff/1256578999; Special:Diff/1256555117; Special:Diff/1256426747. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:31, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

That's you, we're complaining here ;) We have complained about it before, now we havin another go. Selfstudier (talk) 18:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe we'll have a (signed) RFC about it. Selfstudier (talk) 18:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what you are trying to ask about but I won’t be trying to remember details about more than half a year old incident and not sure what is meant with precipitating incident. Accountability as in knowing who to ask when the statement is not neutral/not representative of the discussion/etc. As for the argument that identity of opener shouldn’t affect discussion, this would be also true for everything, including even edits or discussions, so I can’t see why RfC should be a unique exception. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:17, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Are you claiming that the RFC question is non-neutral? Here's a copy of the entire question:

"Should the following sentence be added to the lede?

In its investigation on 20 October 2023, Forensic Architecture concluded the blast was the result of a munition fired from the direction of Israel

"

If not, then what kind of "accountability" are you needing in this RFC? Or are you only saying that, hypothetically, if someone did need to have a discussion about an RFC question, then it would be unfortunate if you had to waste 30 seconds looking up the username first? I wonder how long it would take if the OP had taken you up on your advice to have an admin sign it instead. Then you'd start with the wrong user. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Wouldna took any time at all if they signed it like everybody else does. Selfstudier (talk) 19:34, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I genuinely have no idea what you are trying to get at. I clearly said if it is not neutral, I did not see that any specific question has been non-neutral. 30 seconds is a long time, it should be clear without having to dig anywhere. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

So you think there's nothing wrong with the question, and therefore you have no need to contact the editor over it. Why exactly do you immediately need to know the editor's name again? Just personal preference? A desire for an unnecessary level of uniformity? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:38, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

A natural desire for transparency and accountability if necessary. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Transparency and accountability are provided by the page history. Desiring these things does not explain why you believe the username need to be immediately visible, without clicking on the page history. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The answer is obvious: Make wants to judge the RFC question by who wrote it. This is the exact reason I think RFCs should not be signed: to stop, or at least slow down, people from doing exactly that. Levivich (talk) 18:51, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

As someone keeps pointing out tho, it is kinda easy to see who put it up. Selfstudier (talk) 18:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

If you're on the RfC page, you can look at the page history, sure. But many people won't have had the RfC's page on their watchlists, they will arrive by some other means. Perhaps they habitually check WP:RFC/BIO etc. and from those, pick out RfCs that they are interested in. What they see on those pages is the brief and neutral statement, terminating with a timestamp. I don't think that the lack of an optional signature will make these people say "I won't bother with that one because it's unsigned". But maybe they'll think "it's signed by my nemesis, so I'll go over there and oppose it, whatever the arguments in favour might be". --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

...as the internet has taught us, having to click (or scroll) is enough to dissuade like 90% of people. Levivich (talk) 20:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Did you seriously write "30 seconds is a long time"? Levivich (talk) 18:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Selfstudier, I think these are the reasons for both sides. Have I missed any that seem important to you?

Should we require all RFCs to be signed with a username?

Yes, we should require this.

No, we should not require this.

If an RFC is unsigned, and I want to know who started it, I have to waste seconds looking in the page history. RFC used to ban signatures, but since editors were given a choice, signing has become the most popular choice (10 out of 11 RFCs). If someone wants to start and RFC without their name appearing at the top of the section, they can ask an admin to sign the admin's username instead. We could also make a list of exceptions but still officially require signing your name.

Some RFCs are written by more than one person, so signing one name is inaccurate. Signing with someone else's name would be even worse, because the page history would not have an accurate name. Unsigned RFCs promote fairness. Without knowing who started the RFC, the responses will not be biased by wanting to support a friend or reacting to the reputation of the editor who started it. Not including a username is important for some subjects, when an individual's signature might be seen as disclosing the editor's view on the subject. For example, if the username is either in the Hebrew or the Arabic alphabet, and the article is about Palestinians, then editors will assume that the person starting the RFC is biased.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Still waitin on those examples, btw. Selfstudier (talk) 19:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I've given you an example of the bias caused by seeing the signature, and you admit that you encounter the same problem. What more do you want? Names and dates, like "Here's a link to an RFC where I chose not to participate because the OP has such a bad reputation, and as proof of the bad reputation, here's the ANI discussion where they earned a TBAN"? If so, sorry: I'm not really interested in engaging in gossip about individuals. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Then I am not interested in your theorizing, fair's fair. Selfstudier (talk) 19:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

You've already agreed that Every RFC...in my area has you reacting to the reputation of the signing editor and your own past experiences with the signing editor. I wouldn't call your personal lived experiences to be "my theorizing". WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:29, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I would, tho. Selfstudier (talk) 17:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The argument about Arabic or Hebrew usernames is still unconvincing. Does this mean we should hide editors’ names when they edit so that people don’t perceive it in a biased way? Does this mean we should hide usernames in discussions so that editors don’t also perceive their opinions in a biased way? Why do we give an RFC special treatment? Makeandtoss (talk) 19:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we do allow editors to hide their usernames when they edit so that people don’t perceive it in a biased way. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry#Legitimate uses. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

This is just an info page, I think we should just amend this statement "Sign the statement with either ~~~~ (name, time and date) or ~~~~~ (just the time and date)." so as to clarify that it is usual to give the name version unless there is some good reason not to, which reason should be given somewhere. Selfstudier (talk) 20:04, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that both parts of this suggestion (i.e., telling people that it's usual to sign the username and adding an additional rule to post an explicit justification for not making the popular choice) are WP:CREEPY. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

It's just an info page. Selfstudier (talk) 15:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

So? We don't need instruction creep on info pages, either. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Info is not instruction. Selfstudier (talk) 17:29, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Telling editors that they should give the name version unless there is some good reason not to, which reason should be given somewhere is instruction, not info. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

It's info, y'know, cos it's an info page. Selfstudier (talk) 17:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I think you are reading too much into the label at the top of the page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

No, just getting ready for the RFC is all. Selfstudier (talk) 18:01, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I’ve opened several RfCs that were signed with just a timestamp, and no one’s made a fuss about it. Since both the previous discussion and this one were triggered by BilledMammal not signing his RfCs with his username, if he is creating non-neutral or problematic RfCs to the point where he should be required to sign with his username for purposes of accountability or transparency, then there’s a more significant issue at play here than simply whether or not the RfC is signed with a username. Some1 (talk) 23:49, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

There's also this handy userscript called User:Evad37/TimestampDiffs.js that allows editors to click on the timestamp of a comment and it'll bring them directly to the diff of the comment. Some1 (talk) 23:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

RfCs about Wikipedia:Vital articles

There's an ongoing discussion here: Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles#RfCs_for_nominating_articles Bogazicili (talk) 11:38, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

RFC on signing RFCs

Should the words "or ~~~~~ (just the time and date)" be removed from statement 5 of Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Creating an RfC?

RFCBefore Selfstudier (talk) 18:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Yes The vast majority of RFCs are signed and there does not appear to be a valid reason for not signing. It has been suggested that a signature may induce bias in responses but there is no evidence for this. It has further been suggested that an RFC may be workshopped and therefore the creation of more than one editor, however the editor posting the RFC can simply indicate the location of the RFCBefore to clarify matters.Selfstudier (talk) 18:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• No, for the reasons given above. The reasons to not require an RFC question to end with one person's username are much stronger than the other reasons. The username is not required for any purpose (the bot looks for the date, but not a username).
  For background, there are now about 10 RFCs are signed with a username for every 1 RFC without it. Someone complains about an RFC that lists the username only in the page history, but not at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/All every year or two. As far as I can remember, every single complaint, including the most recent, involved some sort of political hot button. The most recent complaint is about an RFC related to the Israel–Hamas war, and I frankly couldn't fault other editors if they cynically wondered whether the real desire is to know whether the person who started that RFC is Jewish. (The complainant has already said that the RFC question complies with WP:RFCNEUTRAL.) We have a number of trans editors whose usernames indicate that they are out and proud, or their WP:CUSTOMSIGs use the colors or emojis that are associated with the Transgender flag. If one of them felt it was necessary to start an RFC, then I see no reason for us to require them to put their username, and therefore to disclose their trans identity, at the end of the question. The questions are supposed to be impersonal and neutral enough that the identity of the person starting the question is unimportant. Also, note that RFCs are sometimes posted on behalf of a group (or an individual who isn't sure how to start an RFC), so adding a username would be misleading. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:34, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  You should strike your "I frankly couldn't fault..." sentence as it is really offensive. You have been here long enough to know that casting aspersions like that is not allowed. Zero^talk 08:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• No, for the reasons in "WAID's No Box" in the previous subsection. I don't sign my RFC questions -- I just timestamp them, then add a "(as RFC initiator)" or "(as proposer)" to my !vote. It's much fairer that way. I know that seeing my name at the end of an RFC question will influence the response. There are also other situations, as detailed in the "No Box" above, e.g. when the person who posts the RFC isn't really the "author" of the RFC, or when there are multiple RFC initiators. All in all, I really don't see the benefit in requiring signatures after the RFC question -- I really think it's better to forbid it, in fact. RFCs should be decided on their merits; who initiated it is irrelevant. Levivich (talk) 18:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  I can go along with forbidding altogether as well. Selfstudier (talk) 18:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  I don't understand how an unsigned RfC followed by a !vote "as proposer" could influence others less than a signed RfC. The !vote is where you express your opinion and by implication how you wish other people will vote; people who hate you are now much better informed on how to vote against you. Zero^talk 12:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  The vote doesn't show on FRS or at WP:RFC. Clicking/scrolling is a real discouragement on the internet. Levivich (talk) 13:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I would support changing the mechanism so that signatures don't appear at all in FRS or WP:RFC. Whether they are signed or not. Then people who use those services to watch for interesting RfCs will decide only according to the topic whether to visit the actual RfC. Zero^talk 03:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  Also, some editors start RFCs and do not immediately post their own views (or at all). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• No, RFCs should be as little about individual editors as possible. Unsigned RFCs won’t stop the most battlegroundy from checking history, but I think it would curb less conscious predispositions. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 08:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• No, signing an RfC makes it personal and a requester of comments should be able to present it as not a personal request. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 22:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• No as per WAID and in particular because of the tribalism that is prevalent around many of the most contentious arguments that prompt RFCs. If it really matters, and someone truly wishes to go spelunking through the edit history, so be it, but for the average wikipedian, not having a signature should be fine; they don't need to know the person who proposed an RFC to try to decide on the matter at hand. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC)