Template talk:User Ireland Irish

Well done, using an historic flag that few people in Ireland, North or South, would recognise.--Damac 08:54, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hear, hear. And those who do recognize it know it to be an imposed 18th-century British creation. I certainly wouldn't want to be associated with it by having it on my own user page. What is wrong with using a simple outline map of the island of Ireland? -- Picapica 11:46, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The Patrick Saltire is certainly much older than the 18th Century. Read up on your history. --Mal 07:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

It is indeed. it was the arms of the FitzGerald family - responsible for the deaths of many fine Irish people throughout Corcaigh and the rest of the south during the Tudor period, and a major contributing force in the English invasion of Ireland. As someone of irish ancestry I find it offensive and insulting. I've replaced it with a map, but if someone can find something better, feel free... Grutness...wha? 12:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Well done, that man. -- Picapica 12:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The origins of the Patrick Saltire predates the FitzGeralds too Grutness. As someone who is Irish, I can tell you that the usage of the Patrick flag is seen as a very inoffensive symbol - particularly in Northern Ireland - by both 'sides' of the political and religious spectrum. --Mal 06:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

That "particularly in Northern Ireland" bit is what says it all, Mal. The association with St Patrick is phoney, in any case.

Excuse me? What is that "says it all" comment supposed to mean?!? --Mal 12:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

It's supposed and intended to mean that it's not seen as inoffensive outside of Northern Ireland — not least because it's present in the "Union flag". -- Picapica 13:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The red-on-white saltire was not associated with St Patrick until 1783, when a new order of chivalry, the Order of Saint Patrick, was established by the British Crown. Whether or not the Order's badge was derived directly from the FitzGeralds' coat-of-arms, it is certain that the highest ranking member of the Order was the Duke of Leinster, a FitzGerald. Crosses had indeed traditionally been worn on St Patrick's Day before that date, but there is no evidence that these were red-on-white saltires.

I assume that someone picked the colours for the saltire.. perhaps one of the FitzGeralds, who knows? --Mal 12:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The instance alway cited for the appearance of a red saltire in an Irish context before 1783 is that of a map depicting the position of the armies during the Battle of Kinsale in 1601 which identifies the combined Irish-Spanish forces by means of a red-on-white saltire flag. This is not surprising since a red-on-white saltire was the flag of the Spanish armed forces from the 15th century until 1843. It is La Cruz de Borgoña, or Burgundy Cross, also known as La Cruz de San Andrés (St Andrew's Cross) and dates from the royal union of Spain and Burgundy (of which St Andrew is the patron). St Andrew's Cross, despite being conventionally white-on-blue in Scotland (blue-on-white in Russia), is defined not by its colour but by its saltire shape (recalling the manner of St Andrew's martyrdom).

So there you go: the saltire was possibly based on the combination of Irish and Spanish forces. --Mal 12:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I.e. yet more cultural baggage behind this soi-disant "neutral" symbol. -- Picapica 13:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Many Irish were, in fact, indignant about the resemblance of the new "St Patrick's Cross" to the Scottish St Andrew's Cross: The breasts of Irishmen were to be decorated by the bloody Cross of Saint Andrew, and not that of the tutelary saint of their natural isle.. More recently, exception has been taken to the use, as a symbol of Ireland, of a device associated with a regiment of the British army [also, now, a British police force] and the fascist Blueshirts.

More background at this site -- Picapica 12:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

None of this changes the fact that the Patrick saltire is regarded in Northern Ireland, and throughout most of the rest of the island, as being a non-sectarian, non-biased and non-offensive symbol. --Mal 12:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm one Irishman that's lived in several different counties, and I've not seen it. I have no doubt it is non-sectarian, non-biased and non-offensive, but to me it's also non-Irish! Also, I think maps are better for geographic boundries, like the recently created {{User Norden}} MartinRe 13:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong Martin - I accepted the use of the map long ago. You might not have seen the Patrick flag, but that of course doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist, or that it isn't used. Its fast becoming a non-biased standard (witness the adoption of it by the PSNI). However, some particularly staunch Irish Republicans don't see it that way I have to say, considering the flag was adopted and merged into the Union Jack. --Mal 13:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Rename request

All other countries in Europe and UK have individual names, so I suggest we rename this to User RepIreland, and change the flag to the tricolour, rather than try and create an "all ireland" one, which would be very tricky and non consistent with the rest.

This is in keeping with the other user boxes (i.e. non overlapping regions)

• {{user Proud English}}
• {{user Scotland}}
• {{user Welsh}}
• {{user NI}}

with the addition of

• {{User RepIreland}}

Comments? MartinRe 12:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Ireland is a cultural entity embracing diverse political and religious traditions. There is no reason why "User Ireland" has to be aligned with any one nation-state, or model itself on the likes of "Proud English". It has only to be itself. -- Picapica 12:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment User Ireland is used as a location, not culture. In that sense User Ireland makes as much sense as having "user Iberian Peninsula", which also covers several countries. User Irish would be the ancestory userbox. MartinRe 12:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment If kept as a location, User Ireland should be outline of island, and a new one created for User Rep Ireland. Right now, there is no userbox for someone to say they live in the republic of ireland, the only country in europe for which that is true! MartinRe 13:05, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Well, I was reacting to the invitation "You can add this userbox to your user page" in the Active Irish Wikipedians section of the Wikipedia:Irish Wikipedians' notice board. Perhaps I should have read it in more detail: I didn't realize there were all sorts of (how necessary?) residency qualifications and class distinctions involved in being an Irish Wikipedian... And, anyway, what is wrong with a User Iberia category (or User Scandinavia, User Polynesia, etc. etc.) if that is what any users want?-- Picapica 13:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment I think the userbox request is confusing on that page. User Ireland was listed as a location, but used as a culture. I think it's more correct to have "User Irish" as the usebox to show culture (but the icon on that needs to be more neutral). I've no problem with User Ireland as a location in the iberia style, I would just worry that it might get mixed up as a culture reference again. MartinRe 13:28, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Update

I have created a userbox Template:User Ireland Republic for those who want to use it to state they live in the republic. I'm not doing anything with this userbox as above until there's agreement whether this should be a location type (lives in) or culture type userbox MartinRe 13:32, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• We already have Template:Proud Irish to serve as the cultural userbox in contrast to the geographic entity. When I created the userbox, the Patrick saltire seemed like the only Irish flag which can't really be accused of bias; it didn't occur to me to try something else, and I must agree a picture of Ireland would be much more recognisable. I propose replacing the saltire in this template with Image:Map of Ireland's capitals.png ( ). What does everyone think? --Kwekubo 21:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I like the idea of the map (as it's the ideal non ambigious picture of the location it refers to) It is getting a little confusing with all the variants, though, we have user Ireland/NI/RepIreland/Irish/Proud Irish. To me, the first three are location, the latter are cultural/nationality. Then again, the confusion isn't only in Ireland, User England is described as "comes from England", but adds the user to English people (which is what I though user english and user proud english were for! I think it would have been nice to have separate userboxes to show where you're from and what nationality you are, but I see no easy way of making the user boxes consistent without a great deal of work, which is hard to justify for userboxes. MartinRe 23:15, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• • Oop. I replaced the icon with a map before I saw this part of the talk page (see my comments at the top of the page as for why). If you'd prefer the other map (or possibly the shamrock as on {{User Irish}}, then go for it. Grutness...wha? 12:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
    • I think the map is good. I prefer that version to the one that has the different colours for the two counties. I think the map should remain, as the shamrock is more a cultural icon than a location one, and this is a location userbox. Good work. MartinRe 12:53, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Good - I was hoping I wasn't treading on toes (hell, I'm not even from Ireland, though most of my ancestry is). The fix-up of the template looks better too - thanks. Grutness...wha? 00:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

As someone from Ireland, and particaularly as someone from Northern Ireland specifically, I don't consider the map of the island to be offensive without the different colours to indicate the different countries on the island. I would assume that, had the 'User Africa' icon been created (and perhaps it has been - I haven't looked), then a map would be used of that area, without the need to colour each individual country within Africa.. as an example.

I agree that there should be some consistency between all of these, as per MartinRe 23:15, 15 February 2006 (UTC). Perhaps each of us should whittle away at them though, and come to a consensus about them in regard to iconic representation, layout and categorisation. Are any of you involved in the Wikiproject regarding userboxes..? --Mal 06:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with MartinRe (I think - I'm getting a little confused here!): a straightforward outline of the island is all we need (and certainly not a map indicating the partition). Template:Proud Irish, btw, (not a category I'd come across before -- my teachers always told me that Pride was one of the seven deadly sins) is terrible (at least at my screen resolution). What is that on the left: a cabbage? -- Picapica 12:29, 18 February 2006 (UTC)