Alphaten

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Cöthen

Cöthen, Coethen or Köthen? The present name on the English Wikipedia is Köthen (Anhalt). At Bach's time, it was Cöthen, but those times were not strict about spelling. The key thing is to make sure we mean the same thing. You could add a footnote to the many mentionings if you think that is unclear. If you want to do that and need help, ask here, - I'll watch. - Happy editing! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:59, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerda, for your kindly welcome and suggested links.

No worries re: Cöthen/Köthen. However, for an anglophone reader of the article, "Köthen" jars in a Bach context, because the city/area is not spelled "Köthen" in any of the current published English-language Bach books. This _is_ a Bach article, and as such ought to reflect *standard practice* for the area of study (ie. J.S. Bach).

Some exemplars of up-to-date 'standard' "Cöthen" usage in a musical research context:

• 1) The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians (Stanley Sadie, ed. 2000) -- Section 6 under Johann Sebastian Bach = '6. Cöthen'

• 2) 'Bach' in the Master Musicians series (Malcolm Boyd, OUP, 2001) -- Chapter 5 = 'Cöthen (1717-23)'

• 3) 'J.S. Bach: A Life in Music' (Peter Williams, 2007) -- Chapter 4 = 'Cöthen, 1717-23'

• 4) 'The Routledge Research Companion to Johann Sebastian Bach' (R.A.Leaver, ed., Ashgate, 2013) -- 4 main index entries under headword 'Cöthen'; p.198 - major section heading 'Cöthen (1717-23)'.

There is thus ample justification - and precedent - for changing the word from "Köthen" (modern geographical usage) to "Cöthen" (standard historical Bach usage)*. If there are no objections in light of the adduced examples of common practice, I'd like to go ahead with the change, possibly in other Bach/Cöthen related articles too. Looking forward to your further input. --Alphaten (talk) 09:12, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

\* [making clear, via links to the modern place-name that "Köthen" is meant.] --Alphaten (talk) 09:49, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, and you are right. Feel free to add footnotes explaining that at Bach's time it was Cöthen, but as long as our article is Köthen (Anhalt), as today's common name, let's assume that it is the better known name. In article text, we don't have to use the historic name at the time. Many were spelled differently back then, and to say Munich for a medieval fact in München carries the same lack of historicity, also calling Wagner's opera The Flying Dutchman (opera). Wikipedia is full of it, and I see more important questions open. - Nice to meet you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:38, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Well, no - you still haven't grasped my point: it's not a question of "in Bach's time" the spelling was such; it is that in virtually all of the _modern_ English-language literature on Bach, the spelling is standardized to "Cöthen". It's a question of up-to-date common practice among anglophone musicologists and musicians, and thus the proposed change merits serious consideration as well as being justified. Again, please remember that this is the _English_ Wikipedia, not the German one... And you say "let's assume Köthen is the better known name" when, among anglophone readers familiar with Bach, it's clearly not. --Alphaten (talk) 11:50, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for disappointing you. Wikipedia goes for the socalled common name in it's article names, and that is Köthen in the English Wikipedia. In this case, I don't even see confusion. - I have other problems to solve that are more urgent for me. Perhaps contact a project? Classical music? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:32, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm not even contesting the main Köthen (Anhalt) article header; only recommending that "Köthen" be amended to "Cöthen" per common anglophone practice in English Wikipedia articles touching on Bach's "Cöthen period" (for reasons clearly stated above). You are obviously not anglophone yourself, and thus naturally take a different perspective on this place-name matter. By the way, what's a non-anglophone doing editing the English wikipedia in the first place? (Something I've never understood). --Alphaten (talk) 12:40, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

It's not anglophone sources, it's what Wikipedia has as the common name, and again, I don't think any reader will be confused. No one was in the last 9 or so years. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:53, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

I really don't think you've understood me fully. But, in any case, who am I to beat fruitlessly against wikipedian currents until I drown? (I learned that lesson long ago) -- Alphaten (talk) 13:00, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Same for me ;) - There will be German sources saying Cöthen. - I advised you to argue not with me, but at a broader forum, and perhaps talk:Bach would be a place to start. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:09, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

ps: I don't believe your concern belongs in the lead of Köthen, in that detail, - compared to all the things not mentioned in the lead. Please think about it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

I'll certainly think on your words, Gerda - again, we differ in perspective (myself being anglophone and a long-time reader of English Bach literature, most of which still says "Cöthen"). But then instead, I may log off permanently and simply go back to the occasional small anonymous edits, since I detest the bickering that results from attempting to effect one tiny useful and relevant change... --Alphaten (talk) 11:01, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

PS. Where _else_ to put the litte note on the modern English spelling of the place-name? - Important indications regarding spelling/pronunciation generally go in the first _paragraph_ of the lead section, even the first _sentence_, let alone elsewhere in that section, would you not agree? :) --Alphaten (talk) 11:24, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	I have loved seeing your article on Ignaz von Gleichenstein develop and flourish! I hope my edits were of use to you. I have placed the article in my watchlist and will help to make it better (if necessary!). Good job! Blackswan19 (talk) 11:47, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks indeed Blackswan19. I enjoyed creating this (my second) article, and your help on the text was invaluable: a great improvement on my original -- much of which was translation -- in most cases! Alphaten (talk) 21:13, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

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Cryptozoology, Loren Coleman, and Pseudoscience

Here you state that "wikipedians believe the discipline is a 'pseudoscience'." In fact, it is the academic community that describes the subculture as pseudoscientific, as this section makes explicit. Particularly since proponents describe this particularly pseudoscience as very scientific, its status as a pseudoscience must be made clear where mentioned (see, for example, WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE: "The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such"). :bloodofox: (talk) 17:05, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Fine - do what you like. This was just a drive-by edit. I refuse to get embroiled in arguments as to what constitutes a 'pseudoscience' and who allegedly deems cryptozoology to be one. Alphaten (talk) 17:12, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

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DYK for Pasqualati House

On 14 March 2019, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Pasqualati House, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Beethoven composed two symphonies during the eight years he lived in the Pasqualati House (pictured) in Vienna? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Pasqualati House. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Pasqualati House), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

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