User talk:Bbik/Archive 3
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Smederevo
Re this undertaking of yours: just to let you know that my wife is from Smederevo and I go there about once a month. So, I'll be able to provide some nice photos... once I get my ass up and walk to the Fortress. :-). And, yeah, you deserve this. Duja► 07:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Ooooo pictures! Any chance of a map of the place, too? With numbered towers? (Hey, I can try, can't I? ;) ) I should copy that over to the actual page soon... Once I figure out what the heck I'm supposed to do with the mess that is the rest of it. And, thanks! Shiny! -Bbik 07:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- You mean, like this one? ;;). I'm fairly versatile with Corel so I might try recreating it... I can't deny you. Duja► 07:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- See also here. Duja► 07:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- You know, you're starting to make it look like I'm not even trying to find stuff myself, the speed you've come back with some of these links. :p All I'd managed were these two, one of which says about nothing, the other which is too small to read, and (I think) Cyrillic anyhow. The first one you found is great. The second... has a lot of words. I'll have to look through that and see what I can get out of it. -Bbik 08:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not quite sure what to make of the second link. For Golubac, some of the information agrees with what I've already found, and some doesn't at all. The age is older than anything I've seen, and I'm not sure where Byzantine and Bulgaria came from, though I suppose it's possible during some of the unknown dates... I'm a bit curious what the palace it mentions is, too, especially in the lower section. For Smederevo, is there both a manor and a palace in the small town, or does "manor" mean the entire area, and the palace is within it? Also, any idea if "biforium" (Something about Gothic windows, I think the dividing part when it's a double window.) is a word in English? It seems to be in German and Polish, but even Merriam Webster doesn't seem to know what it is in English. -Bbik 09:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- There's something fishy here: we have an article Triforium, describing a related but by no means same stuff as the window. However, pl:Triforium talks about three-arched windows? Is perhaps "biforium" a back-formation from "triforium" under a mistaken (?) assumption that "tri" comes from Latin "three"?
In any case, I'd go with google:Double-arched window, which seems to be the common English expression. See e.g. here.
As for the Smederevo fortress, I'm not sure.Duja► 12:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)- For that matter, what does that first link you found say? Between what I've already found (Yay language barrier-crossing numbers!) and the (very few) words I'm starting to recognize, it looks like there's actually some decent information there. Perhaps even something about these windows the other link mentions, since there's a picture? Is there any rhyme or reason for the willy-nilly numbering on the map? It would be so much easier to follow if it just went in a circle, rather than all the back and forth... And where's the sacral complex? Is that in the small town, or is that the thing on the bottom right of the big town (It's labelled "Turkish [something]" though, isn't it? Judging by the baths bit, anyhow.), or somewhere else entirely? (Do you have time for translating stuff, or should I see if I can recruit xompanthy again? I will learn to read this myself, eventually. Somehow...) -Bbik 06:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- There's something fishy here: we have an article Triforium, describing a related but by no means same stuff as the window. However, pl:Triforium talks about three-arched windows? Is perhaps "biforium" a back-formation from "triforium" under a mistaken (?) assumption that "tri" comes from Latin "three"?
(Undent) Well, the page does have the "English" link at the top right, which leads you to... We have a saying "Speak Serbian so that whole world can understand you", which clearly demonstrates our cosmopolitanism $-).
Well, I don't quite have time for translation, but I'll try the text on the right side, which contains more relevant informations. The one on the left is from Aleksandar Deroko's "Srednjevekovni gradovi na Dunavu" (Medieval Cities on Danube).
Basic data
The area of the small and the big town, according to 1975 measurements, is 11.3272 ha. The fortress is squeezed between Danube's right bank and the mouth of Jezava, in an irregular triangular shape. Since it had a water trench around the big town, the Fort belonged to the so-called water fortress type, although it wasn't built so that it foundations lie in the water.
The Danube side is 550m long, the one along Jezava 400, and the third, turned towards the city, 502 m. Actually, it is a reduced image of Constantinople Fortress. So is artistically and intellectually shaped a military fortress with a smaller and a bigger triangles, two canals, Roman and Serbian built-in monuments.
This monumental colossus of Serbian military architecture, surrounded by water from all three sides, seemed impregnable. And yet, world events, strong Turkish breakthrough, and (proverbial, may I add) Serbian discord speeded up the fall of Smederevo, the witness of Serbian creative force. However, hard imposed taxes and long-standing exhausting work on its building have left the traces in popular memory and associated the malediction with the name of the Despot's wife Jerina (commonly known as "Prokleta" (damned), op.ed.)
From once small suburb, which was placed on the Danube bank away from the fortress wall (because in front of them a clear field space "kalemejdan"), during the centuries, and especially after 1867, todays big town of Smederevo developed.
Along with the tower with cross and inscription, the small town also has two another building elements.
Windows towards the Danube
The throne hall, leaning on the north wall towards the Danube, belongs to the most representative buildings of our medieval architecture. It contains biforas -- four big two-part windows overseeing the Danube, carved in the stone with gothic and romanic arches. Those were the Despot's residing premises and the reception hall. In this hall, the famous merchant contract between Venice and the Despotate was signed.
Donžon kula (keep) was the last resort and defense. Into this hall, with walls over 4m thick, the eminent persons withdrew during the Turkish attacks.
Duja► 09:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
...and, from here:
On one of the towers of the small town is a brick-built large inscription which testifies the year of the fortress's building. This tower, for the cross immured above the inscription, is known as "krstata kula" or "krstača" in the people.
The inscriptions like this are generally rare, and can be found only on the Byzantine territory, and this one is the sole example in Yugoslavia.
The text in original reads:
„V Hrista Boga blagoverni despot Gurg, gospodin Srblju i Pomorju zetskomu; zapovešću njegovom sazida se ovaj grad v leto 6938 (1430)“
"In Christ the Lord faithful despot Gurg, master of Serbs and the Littoral of Zeta. By His order this city was built in the year of 6938 (1430)."
Duja► 09:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- "From once small suburb, which was placed on the Danube bank away from the fortress wall (because in front of them a clear field space "kalemejdan")..." -- Outside the wall, I'm assuming? Though, the links I'd found make it sound like there was nothing outside the walls...
- The throne hall in the next bit is referring to 17 on the map, right? Any idea what the (fortified) manor my links keep mentioning is? Hall, keep, or palace? I'm thinking it might mean the hall, if the throne hall was "the Despot's residing premises..."
- Any idea which tower this "krstata kula" is?
- -Bbik 06:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, outside the walls; the central place (with the Church of Saint Lucas) of the modern city is some ~500m away from the fortress; I'm not sure if it can be seen on that photo. It probably developed much time later. I omitted a part of the sentence: "a clear field space" ... had to be maintained.
- Yes, the throne hall is #17. I can only guess that the "fortified manor" refers to the entire small city. The small city is small indeed, I guess some 30-40 m wide.
- It's #16 on the plan. Duja► 15:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I completely misunderstood that. I thought it was still talking about the big town suburb (or at least that timeframe) for the first half of that sentence, not (the start of) the modern city.
- And the tower with the inscription being the inscription tower would make sense, wouldn't it? I need to start thinking a little before I ask even more stupid questions.
- -Bbik 07:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The fortress plan
- Yay! Thanks :) -Bbik 06:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, btw, any chance you can add a compass rose or something to the map? I think I've figured out what's north based on the labels on your pictures, but... Not terribly clear without looking through them all. Though, apparently it's not too terribly vital, either, if it took me this long to even notice the lack. -Bbik 04:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Will do; however, the North is almost exactly where it should be on the plan. Duja► 07:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Wait a minute, there's no more Jezava? Is it just redirected elsewhere, or... gone, entirely? -Bbik 04:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- The water is shifted some 80 m eastwards, and there's a marina now, with coast fixed and arranged. You can see a part of it on the left side of Image:Smederevo panorama 2.jpg. What I don't quite get is that it seems like a 500m or so deep Danube's inlet rather than a river's mouth -- i.e. I couldn't see where and whether Jezava actually flows into that marina. As I suppose, Jezava itself is more like a swampy canal than a "real" river. Here's a fairly detailed map of the area -- check out the Jezava's flow right above the title "SMEDEREVO" :-). Duja► 12:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- There's one thing about that map that's really confusing me. The double-line along the coast, above Brežane and continuing to SMEDEREVO and zigzagging everywhere else, what is it? I'd say it looks like train tracks, but... it doesn't seem to be going anywhere a train would logically go (at least, to me anyhow). At any rate, along there is more water, "Jezavski knl" and it seems to be going to the right place, even if the Jezava isn't. It even has a little point sticking out by the fortress, is that the marina (or at least, the bit of water in that picture) perhaps? Why would anyone have dug so much canal, not even following the pre-cut path of the river, to seemingly the middle of nowhere, though? -Bbik 20:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- The double lines are levees I suppose; the railway goes along the town edge, the Danube, and ends in "Stara železara" (the old steel mill). Oh, I found a photo gallery. #11, "Izgled tvrđave sa jezavske strane, pre razaranja" is taken before the 1941 explosion; it's the southern wall. This aerial view is relatively recent, and this one is old, but apparently after WWII.
"knl" stands for "canal"; I don't know when it was dug, but it's apparently a part of flood defense system: the only reference I found is the operation plan of Ministry of Agriculture [1], pages 17-18, which refers to several levees on Jezava and Morava, "new riverbed of Jezava", "old riverbed of Jezava", reservoir of Jezava etc. The town itself is on the hills, but the plains start right east of Jezava/Jezava canal. Duja► 08:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- The double lines are levees I suppose; the railway goes along the town edge, the Danube, and ends in "Stara železara" (the old steel mill). Oh, I found a photo gallery. #11, "Izgled tvrđave sa jezavske strane, pre razaranja" is taken before the 1941 explosion; it's the southern wall. This aerial view is relatively recent, and this one is old, but apparently after WWII.
- There's one thing about that map that's really confusing me. The double-line along the coast, above Brežane and continuing to SMEDEREVO and zigzagging everywhere else, what is it? I'd say it looks like train tracks, but... it doesn't seem to be going anywhere a train would logically go (at least, to me anyhow). At any rate, along there is more water, "Jezavski knl" and it seems to be going to the right place, even if the Jezava isn't. It even has a little point sticking out by the fortress, is that the marina (or at least, the bit of water in that picture) perhaps? Why would anyone have dug so much canal, not even following the pre-cut path of the river, to seemingly the middle of nowhere, though? -Bbik 20:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- The water is shifted some 80 m eastwards, and there's a marina now, with coast fixed and arranged. You can see a part of it on the left side of Image:Smederevo panorama 2.jpg. What I don't quite get is that it seems like a 500m or so deep Danube's inlet rather than a river's mouth -- i.e. I couldn't see where and whether Jezava actually flows into that marina. As I suppose, Jezava itself is more like a swampy canal than a "real" river. Here's a fairly detailed map of the area -- check out the Jezava's flow right above the title "SMEDEREVO" :-). Duja► 12:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- Wait a minute, there's no more Jezava? Is it just redirected elsewhere, or... gone, entirely? -Bbik 04:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- Will do; however, the North is almost exactly where it should be on the plan. Duja► 07:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, btw, any chance you can add a compass rose or something to the map? I think I've figured out what's north based on the labels on your pictures, but... Not terribly clear without looking through them all. Though, apparently it's not too terribly vital, either, if it took me this long to even notice the lack. -Bbik 04:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
(Undent) Well, as far as levees and such, pta has this: In the 1970s to 1990s funds for making a water defence system from the Danube were provided, with investments from the Ministry of Culture of the Republic of Serbia. However, it seems to be specifically about the Danube, rather than the Jezava. Unless perhaps whatever water level increase for inlets resulting from higher Danube levels is included in the defense system, meaning the Jezava falls under it, too? Or maybe the canal (which I'm guessing is the same as the "new riverbed of Jezava"?) was dug specifically to drain off water from the Danube if it gets high, rather than really having anything to do with the Jezava itself, other than being in the same general area?
Also, I had been assuming The condition of the city wall facing the town is bad – it was restored several times as part of the river wall protection works and is stable, although conservation work is of poor quality. (pta) meant the southern wall, but perhaps it actually means the southeastern corner, if those lines are levees? Or is there some sort of levee system cutting the fortress off from the rest of the city, too? -Bbik 23:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
A few more useful links
- Here's a nice (albeit small) aerial view, so that you get an idea how it all looks like.
- [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/deo-iz-knjige-smederevo-1430-370744.html?p=4014110 Here's] a longish excerpt from "Smederevo 1430-1930" by Ljubomir Petrović (um, sorry that it's Stormfront but that's the only place I can find it...). Here's a part of its building I find interesting (and my attempt at translating traditional decasyllable) Duja► 10:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The draft was made by model of Constatinople Fortress, which was also in triangular shapes. The works were managed by older brother of despotesse Jerina, George (Đorđe) Kantakuzin. Among the bricklayers, apart from Greeks, were also Ragusans. The extreme effort that the people had to endure was further exaggerated in the popular tradition. The tax in money and other duties were given. Both old and young had to work, as well as women. According to the poem "Starina Novak and count Bogosav", there were people who fled into the woods as hajduks.
Kad me pitaš pravo da ti kažem: Since you asked, I'll tell you truthfully jest mi bilo za nevolju ljutu; It was trully a harsh misfortune Ako moreš znati i pamtiti If you're able, remember and know Kad Jerina Smederevo gradi, When Jerina built the Smederevo Pa, naredi mene u argatluk. She ordered me into day labor Argatovah tri godine dana, I had worked but three full years I ja vukoh drvlje i kamenje, And I pulled sticks and stones Sve uz moja kola i volove; All with my own wagons and oxen I za pune do tri godinice, And for all of those three years Ja ne stekoh pare ni dinara, I had not acquired but a dime Nit' zaslužih na noge opanke! Nor even opanaks to my legs I to bih joj, brate, oprostio. Even that I would forgive her, brother. Kad sagradi smedereva grada, But when she built Smederevo city Onda stade pa i kule zida, There she went on building the towers Pozlaćuje vrata i pendžere, Gilding doors and even the windows Pa nametnu namet na vilajet, And imposed golden tax on people Sve na kuću po tri litre zlata, Every house three liters of gold To je, brate, po trista dukata! That is, brother, three hundreds of ducats! Ko imade i predade blago; Who had had it, gave her the treasure Ko predade onaj i ostade. Who delivered, that one remained Ja sam bio čovek siromašan, I was a man simple and indigent Ne imadoh da predadem blago, I had no gold and money to deliver Uzeh budak, s čim sam argatovo', Took the pickax that I used to work with Pa s budakom odoh u hajduke, With the pickax I went into hajduks Pa se niđe zadržat ne mogoh So I couldn't stay anywhere U državi Jerine proklete. In the state of Jerina damned
Duja► 10:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- So, at the risk of sounding really stupid... Where, exactly, is the fortress in the picture? (I assume you mean the very top one, right?) Is the fuzzy top half supposed to be it, or the whole thing, or something else entirely?
- Is it only on Stormfront because it's a copyvio? That seems to be the common reason with situations like that. I'm guessing Ragusans is referring to the bunch of people from Dubrovnik that some link or other mentioned? Or is it the Republic of Ragusa?
- And, I like that better than the stupid poetry we had to read in school. At least it has a story to it!
- -Bbik 06:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- This one should clarify the situation (looks like a postcard scan).
- Dunno why it is on Stormfront (it's a forum site anyway). Guess those folks are interested in Serbian history. Yes, "Ragusans" meant people from Republic of Ragusa (=Dubrovnik).
- On second reading, t'was a sloppy decasyllable translation (give or take a couple of syllables) but you get the idea :-).
- Btw, a stub on Jerina is located at Eirene Kantakouzene, so
weyou could spare a few words there in the way. Duja► 15:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yup that one helps, and I see where it is on the other picture now, too. Much as I'd already converted the 11ha to 23 acres and realized it was big, that thing is huge! I can see why it's actually a mention-worthy walk to take pictures, now. I'll add whatever other questions later if they come up, it mostly depends how much patience I have for it all right now. Turning lots of overly specific, sometimes overlapping, sometimes disagreeing lists into halfway decent, logical prose, blech. -Bbik 05:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm... So if I go and stick {{Serbia-bio-stub}} at the bottom, that's "[sparing] a few words there" right? :p (I'll see what turns up to help it out a bit. Not nearly as fond of all the tangled webs involved with people, though, so doubt I'll go too much out of my way for it. We'll see. Not like I planned to do all this, either.) -Bbik 07:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Condition, etc.
Youch, 10km? That is huge. For clarification, is "town" (blasting through the entire town. . .and most of the buildings in the town were turned into debris) referring to the larger suburb within the walls (Did it still exist then? If it did, this certainly explains why that area's empty now.), or modern Smederevo as a whole, or? And... How did any of the fortress survive, if it damaged buildings that far away? How did the bath and church survive, either, since they're actually within the fortress? Or does the sporadic "remains" label actually mean they're two big piles of rubble, rather than still standing but damaged?
Any idea which tower is the "corner-stone tower"? Number 7 on your map, maybe? Which one is "tower number 10"? Any chance they're the same tower? Are the two trenches big enough for boats/ships, as "canal" (from one of the sources) implies, or are they actually moats, or not really even that, as your "trench" implies? There are a few questions (some bolded, some hidden) in the text itself, too, if you have any insight into them. -Bbik 01:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- "The town" refers to the entire modern Smederevo. I can't really tell why the damage to the fortress walls was relatively low: for the start, they're helluva thick (2-3 m). But then, if they resisted, they would supposedly direct the shockwave a bit up and at least partially protect the vicinity (from the direct shockwave path if not from the falling debris)? Or not? I'm not exactly an expert on physics of explosions. No, the "remains" of the bath and church are merely the basements; you can see a bunch of trees the air photo on the supposed location of the bath, and I guess it's similar for the church. But I'll check out for the weekend myself.
- Cross-checking with the original map, it seems likely that "tower number 10" equals "cornerstone tower" and equals "Turkish inscription tower" #7 on my map. It's not clear, however, whether there are two towers at that corner or only one (and what the circles on the outer triangle tip really indicate); again, I'll check for the weekend.
- The outer trench does not exist anymore at all. The inner trench is actually a moat; it still exists and I don't know how wide it is. My memory says somewhere around 5m, but I'll check. I'll reply to the other questions inline. Duja► 14:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- Just to double check, it looks like tower 10 is in fact the same as the corner-stone tower, however it is not the same as the Turkish inscription tower, right? Feel like adding a number to that tower, too, so I can mention it specifically, as the only tower to have been restored (at least, in the big town)? -Bbik 07:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- Right. Will do. Duja► 08:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- Just to double check, it looks like tower 10 is in fact the same as the corner-stone tower, however it is not the same as the Turkish inscription tower, right? Feel like adding a number to that tower, too, so I can mention it specifically, as the only tower to have been restored (at least, in the big town)? -Bbik 07:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Photos
commons:Smederevo Fortress. Although a picture is worth a thousand words, I do expect more questions ;-). But I gotta dig my head down into the debugger now :-(. Duja► 11:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Smart of you. :) (Poor computer, though. I need to do entirely too much maintenance too, as soon as I can get it to let me write a CD.) Nice work on those panoramas, by the way. I can't make things look so good that you can't even tell where pictures overlap when I try pasting them together. Bbik
- Is the tower inscription in Cyrillic? Or Glagolitic? I can't make out any of it. Bbik
- Is that foundation the entirety of the palace? It looks so... small. Like a wide hallway, more than a palace. Or is that just because of the perspective? What're all the nicely lined up holes along the walls for? For that matter, what're all the holes in this one, either? Bbik
- Yes, the foundation is the whole palace. It isn't big indeed, compare the people. My guess is that the holes on the small town walls were beam holders; as for the ones from here, I don't have any idea (it's on the outer side, on the tower next to the "Krstata kula").Duja►
- Is the red outline where the hall used to be? I thought it was still standing? Bbik
- Since the corner tower has railings and stairs... where's the entrance? On the outside or something? It doesn't look like there's one in the picture. Oh... or is it just the gate stairs, and you have to go across the wall to get to it? Bbik
![[3]](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Smederevo_small_town_walls.jpg){kind=link}
- What's the big black thing in the small town? And in the river (I'm guessing Danube?) too, for that matter? Bbik
- The ship gate... did ships used to go through there? Or just come up to there? If the first, is it actually a lot bigger than the picture makes it look? If the second, to there on which side? The front, or the other side? Or? Bbik
- I thought myself it was passable for ships (as the original Deroko's plan shows), but now I doubt it; it's narrow (~1.5 m) and, as you can see, there's no break in the outer scarp. Now I think that the ships actually anchored outside, and that "ship gate" means "where you enter if you come by ship". The photo is taken from the inside.
Alas, the entire fortress is fairly overgrown with weeds; I even found some specimens of Ragweed (here, perhaps?), for which you are even supposed to pay fines if an inspections finds it growing on your property (allergenic, you know); not that it ever happened... Duja►- A fine for allergenic plants? That's one I've never heard before. You know, though... going past how ridiculous it sounds to me, how would anyone regulate that, anyhow? Is it a requirement to buy weed killers and spread chemicals everywhere to kill/prevent them or something? It would seem like there'd be any number of better things to spend that money on, if that's the case. Though, not having all that stuff in the air? That'd be nice... -Bbik 09:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Find someone with polen allergy and ask him how he feels... ragweed is the most notorious. Actually, I'm not sure if we have a fine for that (I know Croatia does), but the Ministry of Agriculture does organize actions and promotes its eradication, even in TV spots. Duja► 09:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, I know. I don't have horrible allergies like some I know, but I still notice it. I'd just never really considered it to be even possible to eliminate it, since pollen's everywhere, which is why the fine sounds quite so strange, too. But hey, if it's done, I guess it is possible, at least to some degree. Heh, I wonder how much of it is that everyone here wants to sell/take drugs to fix symptoms, rather than actually fixing the problem. -Bbik 21:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if they catch you with another kind of weed growing on your property, you'd get far more than just a fine :-). Alas, it doesn't spread and grow as easily as ragweed :-(. I suppose requiring land owners to get rid of ragweed is not too much, when you look at it that way :-). Duja► 12:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- Hehe :) -Bbik 19:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if they catch you with another kind of weed growing on your property, you'd get far more than just a fine :-). Alas, it doesn't spread and grow as easily as ragweed :-(. I suppose requiring land owners to get rid of ragweed is not too much, when you look at it that way :-). Duja► 12:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, I know. I don't have horrible allergies like some I know, but I still notice it. I'd just never really considered it to be even possible to eliminate it, since pollen's everywhere, which is why the fine sounds quite so strange, too. But hey, if it's done, I guess it is possible, at least to some degree. Heh, I wonder how much of it is that everyone here wants to sell/take drugs to fix symptoms, rather than actually fixing the problem. -Bbik 21:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Find someone with polen allergy and ask him how he feels... ragweed is the most notorious. Actually, I'm not sure if we have a fine for that (I know Croatia does), but the Ministry of Agriculture does organize actions and promotes its eradication, even in TV spots. Duja► 09:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- A fine for allergenic plants? That's one I've never heard before. You know, though... going past how ridiculous it sounds to me, how would anyone regulate that, anyhow? Is it a requirement to buy weed killers and spread chemicals everywhere to kill/prevent them or something? It would seem like there'd be any number of better things to spend that money on, if that's the case. Though, not having all that stuff in the air? That'd be nice... -Bbik 09:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- I thought myself it was passable for ships (as the original Deroko's plan shows), but now I doubt it; it's narrow (~1.5 m) and, as you can see, there's no break in the outer scarp. Now I think that the ships actually anchored outside, and that "ship gate" means "where you enter if you come by ship". The photo is taken from the inside.
- Does "Donjon" mean something? (Is it Donjon or Donžon?) I know I've seen that pop up several times instead of "keep", it's on the sign too, and I think I've seen it elsewhere, too. Does it just mean "keep", or is a keep just what that specific tower is, but donjon means something else, or? Bbik
- fr:Donjon has the interwiki link to en:Keep and vice versa (actually, that's how I found the term "keep"). Duja►
- So, Donžon is Serbian, Donjon is... Frenchified Serbian (? Is there actually crossover between Romance and Slavic languages, in that case, despite the fact that I can recognize essentially nothing?), then English decided, in its typical confusing fashion, to both steal the Serbian/French word, probably mispronounce it horribly like most other stolen words, and create another unrelated word for the same thing? And I like languages so much... why? Confusing things. Still want to learn them all. -Bbik 09:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Um? Donjon is original French, and Donžon is obviously the Serbian borrowing. AFAICT English doesn't use it, but rather "keep". Duja► 09:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- (Obviously, I don't deal with these terms normally, in any language, and the amount of criss-crossing in various places isn't helping any.) So is there an original Serbian word for it, too? If the one used is borrowed from French, it makes me think there isn't, but if there is, why not use it instead? -Bbik 21:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- We have, what, a dozen or less of large fortresses, and, say, a couple of them with a keep; wouldn't it be too much to invent a term for something used in 3 places? Duja► 12:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- In that case, yeah, that makes sense. I didn't realize there were so few, a combination of thinking most just weren't standing anymore, which was why these two are so impressive, and the whole "Europe is older. Older produced lots of castles and the like, which means Europe has lots of castles. Serbia is Europe, so must also have (or previously had) lots of castles." Gotta love misinformed assumptions and stupid generalizations! -Bbik 19:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- We have, what, a dozen or less of large fortresses, and, say, a couple of them with a keep; wouldn't it be too much to invent a term for something used in 3 places? Duja► 12:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- (Obviously, I don't deal with these terms normally, in any language, and the amount of criss-crossing in various places isn't helping any.) So is there an original Serbian word for it, too? If the one used is borrowed from French, it makes me think there isn't, but if there is, why not use it instead? -Bbik 21:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Um? Donjon is original French, and Donžon is obviously the Serbian borrowing. AFAICT English doesn't use it, but rather "keep". Duja► 09:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- So, Donžon is Serbian, Donjon is... Frenchified Serbian (? Is there actually crossover between Romance and Slavic languages, in that case, despite the fact that I can recognize essentially nothing?), then English decided, in its typical confusing fashion, to both steal the Serbian/French word, probably mispronounce it horribly like most other stolen words, and create another unrelated word for the same thing? And I like languages so much... why? Confusing things. Still want to learn them all. -Bbik 09:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- fr:Donjon has the interwiki link to en:Keep and vice versa (actually, that's how I found the term "keep"). Duja►
- That's some impressive leaning some of the towers are doing. How are they even still standing? Bbik
- Well, they do [5]. So does the Leaning Tower of Pisa, doesn't it :-P ?
My guess is that it was chiefly the 1941 explosion which did most of the damage; a fair part of the southern wall, outlooking the railway station (soon-to-be removed, they say) is missing, and others [6] are heavily damaged Duja►- I must've deleted my Pisa comment, I was thinking that too. (But when I saw it, they had rocket things shooting mud out from under the high side to try and untip it again so it wouldn't fall. No good views from the top for me.) Interesting that they plan to remove the wall, though... entirely opposite of my (admittedly, several years old) sources, which were talking about moving the railroad instead. -Bbik 09:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- I meant removing the railway, of course. It's a dead end, with only 2 trains a day or so. Duja► 09:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yup. That's called "I need to stop responding when that tired, because the responses get really stupid and miss the obvious." -Bbik 21:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- I meant removing the railway, of course. It's a dead end, with only 2 trains a day or so. Duja► 09:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- I must've deleted my Pisa comment, I was thinking that too. (But when I saw it, they had rocket things shooting mud out from under the high side to try and untip it again so it wouldn't fall. No good views from the top for me.) Interesting that they plan to remove the wall, though... entirely opposite of my (admittedly, several years old) sources, which were talking about moving the railroad instead. -Bbik 09:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, they do [5]. So does the Leaning Tower of Pisa, doesn't it :-P ?
![[5]](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Smederevo_southeast_wall_2.jpg){kind=link}
![[6]](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Smederevo_southwest_wall.jpg){kind=link}
- Oh, and what's with the mixed-script signs? Not your picture, I realize, but... I'm still curious! Bbik
- Well, we use both scripts equally, though usually not on the same sign (the new ones on the highways are in both scripts, though, probably because stupid foreigners [sic] won't learn the Cyrillic). Maybe the one for Niš was added or repaired later? Duja► 07:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Oh man. There's a topic I'm not going to get myself started on. Suffice it to say, I'm VERY much of the opinion that if you're going somewhere, you should be learning at least the very basics of that language, rather than expecting to be catered to (Especially if you're driving there! Sheesh!). Or if you actually want to get into this sort of discussion, it needs to have it's own topic, because I'll probably ramble and/or tangent, a lot. -Bbik 09:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, we use both scripts equally, though usually not on the same sign (the new ones on the highways are in both scripts, though, probably because stupid foreigners [sic] won't learn the Cyrillic). Maybe the one for Niš was added or repaired later? Duja► 07:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, I think that's enough for now. Tonight will hopefully be spent seeing if I can clarify some of the confused parts of the article. -Bbik 18:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Translation
Rather than getting it all confused with comments and such, and since it doesn't matter much... Is that page taken from a book that had pictures to fill in all the gaps or something, since it kind of jumps around everywhere, not to mention skipping parts (inscription) and a rather random section split (What does the windows header have to do with the following text? Is it still coming or something?)?
Oh, and "elided"? Where did you manage to learn that word? I had to go and look it up to figure out what that line said, never heard it in my life.
Anyhow, time to see what bits and pieces are where that I've forgotten, and see if I can piece them together. Even keeping this between two pages, I'm still losing stuff! -Bbik 22:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- At any rate, what you've translated so far is stashed into the article. Some's actually been meshed, some's just sitting there for now until I see what else is coming to connect it with. Good luck following the silly diff page, though, I did way too much at once for that to be any good. I think I'm considering myself done for now, unless I see something that desperately needs fixing. -Bbik 07:15, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, the text I started translating has the order of presentation like Tarantino's movies :-). Still, it has some useful info.
- "Elided"? I'm not sure; Usenet, I suppose. Yes, that's it.
- In any case, I won't be around until next Monday; business trip. Good luck & see you. Duja► 19:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Have... fun? Do you have a fun job?
- And yeah, the info's decent enough, though I have to admit I just started laughing at all the "Her flowing, curly locks were lovely, he was just oh-so-handsome, they were both beautiful and wonderful and..." (I noticed you skipped some about her, too. Probably a good thing.)
- And a quick continuation of the 'use green' edit summary, even aside from being a different color from links (well, unless you've customized stuff so that you don't use the standard colors), it just stands out better, too, especially when I'm just scrolling through to find off-color notes. And hey, it's less for you to type that way, anyhow! :p -Bbik 01:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hungarian? Turkish?
In 1428, during the Ottoman Empire's war with Venice, the Hungarians and Ottomans agreed to recognize Đurađ Branković as an independent ruler of Serbia, thereby turning it into a buffer state. (based on sugar)
So, under the contract concluded by Đurađ Branković and Murad II in 1428, sultan allowed the despot to build a city on the Danube, that would close the entry into the Morava valley to the Hungarians. (Smed talk page translation)
What contract? The buffer state one? Why did the Ottomans have a say in where it was built, if Serbia was more under Hungary's control than anyone else's at that point? Or is this all part of the next talk page paragraph, just unclear how specifically it's related? -Bbik
- Sugar mentions the buffer state one; maybe Brankovic was present as well? SUC mentions that in 1428 Brankovic accepts Turkish overlordship; supposedly the fortress was part of the deal? Duja►
- Well, the overlordship would help explain the whole contract issue... But SUC brings up another question instead.
- King Sigismund recognizes Djuradj as new ruler of Serbia and vassal (1427).
- Turks attack Serbia, take some towns, repulsed from mining center Novo Brdo. Construction of Smederevo, strongly fortified new Serbian capital on the Danube, begins. Djuradj accepts formal Turkish overlordship (1428).
- How is Djuradj simultaneously a Hungarian vassal and under Turkish overlordship? (In any case, apparently I wasn't totally messing up whether there was some connection to Hungary!) -Bbik 05:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Because :-). Sorry, I really don't know, but seems like a reasonable thing to do under the circumstances—to try to make friends with both of your enemies. I kind of guess that the 1428 contract regulated the Serbian obligations toward Turks and Austrian, but I don't know how—perhaps like paréage in Andorra? Duja► 10:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well that's interesting. I think I'm showing how little I know/understand about politics, I'd never considered that would even be possible. Reasonable on Serbia's part, sure, but can't understand how the Hungarians or Ottomans'd go for it. Oh well, we'll just go with it and I'll figure out how all that works sometime later. Maybe. -Bbik 18:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Because :-). Sorry, I really don't know, but seems like a reasonable thing to do under the circumstances—to try to make friends with both of your enemies. I kind of guess that the 1428 contract regulated the Serbian obligations toward Turks and Austrian, but I don't know how—perhaps like paréage in Andorra? Duja► 10:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, the overlordship would help explain the whole contract issue... But SUC brings up another question instead.