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Circassians etc

Hey!

I left a response to your message some time ago! ;-) [[1]]

- LouisAragon (talk) 17:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC)`

Hello, I saw your recent edit on List of diasporas regarding Circassians. You stated they don't form a community per se in Greece, although Circassians are known to live there, or like the case with Circassians in Iran, assimilated to a point they don't have a huge Circassian identity anymore. The Ottoman Empire did once ruled Southeastern Europe and Mesopotamia where Circassians relocated to in the late half of the 19th century, so there are some Circassians in Serbia and Syria. And Circassians in southern Russia, but your edit included the entire former Russian Empire and Soviet Union/USSR (1917-91). 67.49.89.214 (talk) 17:09, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

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Transliterations

Hey Listofpeople,

Do you perhaps have some proper command of the Circassian language? I have a few articles that would be much more complete with the Circassian transliteration of their names. Unfortunately, I don't really have any command over the language myself. Please ping me when you read this. :-) Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 16:50, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Dear LouisAragon, I would love to help! Best, Listofpeople (talk) 20:07, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Heyy! So yeah, I would love to include the Circassian transliterations of these names if possible. -> Teresia Sampsonia, Shamkhal Sultan, Najafqoli Khan Cherkes, Qazaq Khan Cherkes. Thanks alot! :-) - LouisAragon (talk) 15:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

?... - LouisAragon (talk) 03:08, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello LouisAragon, I have seen your message yesterday night. Let's see what I can do.

The given name Teresa is used amongst Circassians, but the other names such as Sampsonia, Shamkhal, and Najafqoli were obviously not part of these people's birth names as they do not sound really Circassian. That is why there are various other alternatives of spelling. Yet, I suggest you use the following:

• Тхьэрэса (or Тхьэрэсый which is equally fine) Сампӏсыёня (or Сампсыоня) Шъэрлӏй

• Шъэмхъап Султан

• Наджыэфкъолӏй хъан Шэрджэс (Najafkoli is a total foreign word to me, but I transliterated it assuming you pronounce it something like Nedge-jeff-koley in English)

• Къазахъ хъан Шэрджэс (You can also use hyphen between the words Къазахъ and хъан)

Let me know if you pronounce them differently in English or in the native language of these non-Circassian names, so I can make some changes if needed.

Best! Listofpeople (talk) 08:56, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

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Hussein Fahmy

The source that's used is a broken link, thus can't be considered a source, let a lone a reliable source. So leaving it this way is against the policy of Wikipedia. --Rita saber1 (talk) 00:54, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Dear Rita saber1,

You are right that it is not good to have broken links. However, it is usually quite possible to fix such URLs. Instead of removing them, we should first check whether they can be rescued or not. I might do it for you as soon as possible. Thank you for leaving a message on my talk page.

Sincerely, Listofpeople (talk) 07:08, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

The links you provided are still broken and do not exist. Do not undo my edits until an admin checks them out. --Rita saber1 (talk) 21:01, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Dear Rita saber1, I see that you may not familiar with rescuing broken links via archives since you are a recent user. However, I have fully rescued the references for those pages. I have also added some new pages as well although it is not mandatory. Please refrain from removing cited information and references from Wikipedia articles.

Sincerely, Listofpeople (talk) 02:14, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

First of all, the links you have provided are either broken, unreliable sources, or just links that don't provide any information that go along with your edits. You cannot just add unreliable sources or sources that do not exist and get away with it. P.S. You should not be editing articles on the English Wikipedia with such poor command of written English. Please, do not revert any edits until an admin check them out. --Rita saber1 (talk) 02:24, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

First you say that the links are broken and that they should be removed. Now all the links were rescued and you still try to ignore them despite there are many other sources which mention the same information. I have never added a piece of information that goes against the sources. Moreover, it is a widely-known fact that those actors and actresses have foreign ancestry. You can easily find more sources when needed. I do not know what made you think that, but I do not have poor command of English. You are the one who should refrain from reverting. When you remove the information and references from those articles simply because you do not want them there, I can fix it immediately because I am pretty sure about their validity. I am not a recent user either. I assure you that what you are doing is a mistake. Listofpeople (talk) 02:50, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Again!

Did you not read what the Administrator has told you? Wikipedia is not always interested in the origins of people's families, especially when your sources are merely some news from newspapers! There is nobody in Egypt who's a 100% of an origin and/or a race, does that mean everyone of us should walk around carrying a list that mentions their family's origins? Of course not; that's what the concept of 'nationality' was made for. --Rita saber1 (talk) 02:19, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Rita saber1, please be honest with me and others. You simply do not want to see the statement regarding those artists' origin even though those origins are definitely true. You do not deny this, do you? Well, up to this point, you put it in a very wrong way, making weird excuses like that you cannot open the source or see the information (when it was right there). Later you claimed that the newspaper or magazine article is in Arabic so it should not be on English Wikipedia (whilst there is no such rule, and some of the sources were already in English.), and even that my English is not adequate enough to edit English-language articles on Wikipedia. The things you told did not made any sense. Yet, I would try to understand If you instead said something like "Well, these people have definitely those origins, fully or predominantly. I know it, but I believe we do not necessarily have to mention their ancestry here because they were very famous actors and actresses who did a lot for their country (which is Egypt), and when we mention their foreign ancestry in a paragraph, it may sound morally wrong to their Egyptian audience." I do not know. That is not my opinion. I just try to understand your possible way of thinking. If this is the case, I would even take this radical preference of yours seriously if you were this honest with me and others even though their origins were well documented and already known to public in general. Moreover, those people did not hide this. They also came from what is called upper-class families. Maybe you thought they were fully Egyptian until now, but I am afraid it is unlikely that you never heard about their European origin. There is technically nothing wrong in stating one's ethnic origin, even in the introduction section. You either misunderstood the administrator, or... Well, the truth is this is not something forbidden, but must we mention their ethnicity? No, not necessarily. You can simply say "an Egyptian actress", without mentioning about the ethnic origin "at all". Only the nationality/citizenship... I really try to emphasize with you. Let's say there is an article about a notable American person of Chinese and Korean origin. If you remove the word Chinese from the article and replace it with Japanese when that person has really no Japanese ancestry, then this is a serious problem. If you remove the word Korean, and keep the Chinese only, then it is also a problem. But if you remove the whole statement about the origin and keep the nationality (American) only, I might get it to a certain extent as long as you do not invent a lie to remove that text. Do you see my point? In the case of those Egyptian artists, if you did not try to slur a user who did nothing wrong, there would not be much problem. You still say things like "the sources are from newspapers" as if they should not be. Please refrain from making wrong excuses so that we would be okay. Besides, you do not have to compare publicly-known people with other citizens. That is not a relevant justification. And we do not talk about some diluted, too ancient ancestry for those artists. We talk about immediate ancestry. At this moment I may not be interested in reverting your problematic edits so far If you admit that you removed the content not because it was wrong (it was not!), but because you personally prefer not to reveal that information (ethnicity). I do not know if another user notices first that you removed some facts from Wikipedia for no objective reason and undo your edits, but please be honest with me so that I would know that you are not a vandal once and for all. So far your actions unfortunately made me think otherwise. Listofpeople (talk) 07:24, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Daughter of Fawzia/Pahlavi

Hey LoP, how are you doing my friend? Long time no talk. I was wondering, would you be willing to lay down the ancestries of Shahnaz Pahlavi the way you did it for Fawzia of Egypt? E.g. "she was of 5/16th Circassian, 1/16th French, (...)" etc etc. She was quite mixed, so I think having that in the article could help readers understand it better rather than just reading the names of her ancestries. Thanks much in advance. - LouisAragon (talk) 03:20, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Btw, I think you've done some excellent work on numerous Adyghe-related articles in the past few months. Keep it up! - LouisAragon (talk) 03:25, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Hello LouisAragon, thank you so much! It is great to see you. It seems Shah M. R. Pahlavi's mother and paternal grandmother were both ethnic Azerbaijani (Ayrum) who were born in present-day Azerbaijan and Georgia, respectively. I see that the Ayrums' homeland is in between today's southeastern Georgia, northeastern Armenia, and western Azerbaijan. Considering his paternal grandfather was known to be Persian only (Mazandarani from Savadkooh), this would make his daughter Shahnaz Pahlavi, in descending order of dominance, 3/8th Azerbaijani Turk, 5/16th Circassian, 1/8th Persian, 3/32nd Turkish, 1/16th French, and 1/32nd Albanian. Maybe it is better to use the least common multiple (32) for all of them if you think it is not easy to follow. Have you ever heard any other ancestry for the Shah? Listofpeople (talk) 22:02, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Hey! Nope I have not heard about any other ancestries regarding him. I think the ones you mentioned were all of them. I was actually moreso looking for a source that would mention all these ancestries she had. The reason for this is because another editor removed all this info, explaining that it would be "non-defining" for the article.[2] I do kind of agree with him, especially as the article is still quite small. I guess we could salvage the individual sources that would cover all these ethnicities up, but it's kind of redundant imho. - LouisAragon (talk) 02:00, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Dear LouisAragon, I would really appreciate if you could review some of your recent edits on the article of Caucasus. Maybe I should edit it myself, but before making some changes I would like to explain why. As you know, the southern Caucasus states are Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia because these three countries have territories located within the Caucasus Mountains. Although Turkey and Iran are not within the region, they neighbour some countries which are in the Caucasus: Armenia (the republic, not the region called Armenian Highlands or else), Azerbaijan (not the non-Caucasus one), and Georgia (Sakartvelo). And Russia for the northern part. I added the text "and the neighbouring countries" to the image's caption not because it is written in the source (the source is about Georgia only), but obviously because the image also shows the neighbouring countries outside the region (such as Turkey, Kazakhstan, Iran) and ethnic groups like even in East Anatolia and Syria (dark green part). That is so obvious.

The first sentence in the history section was "Located on the peripheries of Turkey, Iran, and Russia, the region has been an arena for political, military, religious, and cultural rivalries and expansionism for centuries. Throughout its history, the region was usually incorporated into the Iranian world...The Russian Empire conquered the territory from Qajar Iran." Russia is not in the periphery of the region. Russia has territory in the region itself. Even if those sentences are about only some territories in the region, they are still problematic. Another one: "Conquered the territory from Qajar" Which territory? The whole region?

-- Hey! :-) Well, indeed a very large part of the region is inside Russia, but it has never been a part of mainstream Russian history, culture, identity, ethnicity, etc., hence I believe the wording used by Iranica is not that odd, de facto. Regarding the 2nd point, this obviousy refers to eastern Georgia (Kartli/Kakheti), all of Azerbaijan Rep., all of Eastern Armenia, and Southern Dagestan. In short; most of the South Caucasus, and a small part of the North Caucasus. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

The whole paragraph is about some part of the South Caucasus, but an adequate introduction would be something "The region has been an arena for political, military, religious, and cultural rivalries and expansionism for centuries. Throughout its history, the Southern Caucasus region was part of the Kartvelian, Armenian, later also Turkic, Russian, and the Iranian world." Amongst others, of course. Because if you just say the whole region is incorporated into the one world without mentioning anything else, that would be super wrong because the whole region was not incorportated to that world and there were many others. Since the quote is from the Iranian encyclopedia (an article about Iran and Caucasus relations), I can understand why it emphasizes the Persian world on that encyclopedia, but this is not to say we should not mention the local Kartvelians, Armenians, and others (Turkic, Slavic, Hellenic, etc.). Not mentioning anything other than Persians can be okay for that encyclopedia (in that context given the article's name), but not for the Wikipedia article about the whole region, right?

-- I don't see how its verifiably possible to equate literally a few years/decades of Armenian/Kartvelian/Hellenic dominance of some parts of the area with, encompassed, many hundreds of years of Iranian dominance? (e.g. Achaemenids, Medes, Sasanians, Safavids, Afsharids, Qajars) And then I'm not even mentioning the Scythians, Alania/Alans, etc. To equate these three, namely Armenian/Kartlian/Hellenic (just as an example) with the Iranian or even Turkic dominance, is pretty much WP:UNDUE weight in the stricest sense of the word, I think. Slavic dominance literally didn't appear any earlier than the 19th century, so that point needs to be nuanced as well. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Moreover, the antiquity section includes irrelevant details. Even the very first sentence starts with Assyrians reaching to the region to the south of the Lesser Caucasus. This is definitely not the most relevant thing. After that, saying Armenia became an empire is great, but then adding that it grew to include Parthia, Syria, Nabataean kingdom, Judea, (and the long list goes on), is beyond the scope of a history section for the Caucasus region's article. Even the dynasty's parent house and many other details were there.

-- I think the Assyrian expansion is significant to a certain degree, as it was probably the first time that an outsider (a kingdom), and not even from a bordering region, managed to expand to the area. I think one small sentence should at least be kept about it. I totally agree about the list of provinces of the Armenian kingdom that should be removed, and the same goes for the mention of its parent house, per WP:UNDUE. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

It is true that the majority of historical Armenia's lands were outside the Caucasus region. It was once much larger than the modern republic, but historical Armenia is within the scope of that article because of some northern territories only.

-- I concur. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

The sentence about what single religion became dominant in the region was also wrong not only because it did not specify a part (yes, that sentence really implied that for the whole region).

-- Yep, that needs to be adressed as well. It only referred to the Southern Caucasus and Dagestan, and not the entire region obviously. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC) There is also this "Up to including the early 19th century, it was part of..." Meaning from the time immemorial until that century?

-- I agree. For simplicity's sake, and taking into account that the article is still very small, lets change that sentence to; "In 1813 and 1828, Qajar Iran ceded the Southern Caucasus and Southern Dagestan to Imperial Rusia" The ref is already there, so that saves us some effort. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

There is a difference between that or "For a time until the early 19th century"/"From ... until the late ..." With all those details it was really like reading an article about the dual relations of Iran with Armenia, Georgia, or Russia. That is too much. Even the very first paragraph was like "Russian conquered the territory from Qajar Iran" Which territory? The whole region? The conquered territory is not written in that sentence or before, but everything else is there. There are many sentences like that. I think now you see what I mean. We should definitely review the article. All the best! Listofpeople (talk) 06:47, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the princess' article, I am not sure what really happened there. The "non-defining" part, ancestry, and titles? We should review that article as well. Listofpeople (talk) 07:12, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

-- Well according to the guy who removed it, those categories, as well as the mention of her ancestries are a "non-defining aspect of the article" [in its current state]. Kind of a vague reason, I know. PS: as you can see, in order to keep it all coherent, I replied to every point right after the sentence. Hope its readable this way for you. Always a pleasure to work together with you! - LouisAragon (talk) 22:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Ways to improve Yegeruqwai

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