Talk:Turnbull Thomson Park

DYK nomination

Template:Did you know nominations/Turnbull Thomson Park

Untitled

I can see this place from Google Earth, and there are some images too but copyrighted. I thought if I can get the measurements or blue print of it I can recreate it Google SketchUp8, render it and take some snapshots.

Nice image from NASA Earth Observatory [1] Free to use [2] I can draw a yellow dot on it with Paint. :D

Found out this person User:Willuknight took the panorama image in Invercargill. We could request some more about the park from him.

Questions

Hi RexRowan. So sorry I've taken so long about this. I've got a series of questions/comments, if you don't mind. If you could let me know where you got the information, possibly from a source, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, I've suggested a few removals, I'd like to know your thoughts.

• "As a natural reserve, it has unique environmental and scenic value." - Is it a natural reserve? Does it have unique environmental and scenic value?

The council management plan kept on calling it as a reserve. Maybe they are confused, because I think it is not formally classified as a protected area.

• "Right below it" - below implies beneath... but it's south of it, isn't it?

Yes, south.

• "Its nearest city is Invercargill" - isn't it in Invercargill?

Yes, it should be in the city, but I got on this place first when I created the box: [3]

• "To its southeast, is Peacehaven." - is this worth mentioning? Peacehaven Village appears to be a retirement home.

Hehehe, is it? Old people and park, a good place to be. Ok, I will cut it.

• "The Main South railway line and Otepuni Stream bisects the reserve in the middle from horizontally." - Horizontally? I think you could just say it bisects it.

Yeah, I didn't realize. I was trying to reword the sentence and repeated myself.

• "A band of industrial segment on Otepuni Avenue creates a barrier between the two eastern parts of the park. On the corner of Lindisfarne Street and Otepuni Avenue, sits a sewerage pumping station." I think that's a little more description than is necessary, I'd suggest this is a bit removed.

No, no, I found a document from John Turnbull Thomson writing about cleansing of the city, he actually set up the sewerage system for the city. It's good to know.

• "Visitors are mostly locals" - any evidence of this?

No, I guessed. My bad.

• "It is also a ideal place for children playing and dog walking." - ideal is a weasel word, and I'd suggest you have a few too many examples at the moment.

Ok, taking notes.

• Maintenance - have you got a source for these?

Yes, from the council plan.

• The first paragraph of landscaping holds a little too much detail, I'd stop at "bordered by W St, X St, Y St and Z St". Otherwise, it could do with a little tidy and a bit more sourcing.

Ok, no problem. I added these on later on to expand it the original was in my own words with brief description.

• Sports clubs, do you have evidence for each of these? I'd recommend a source for each.

The council plan has got them all. I found a few sources for the football clubs but the others are not very famous, but they are there.

• History needs some sources, but I really like this section.
  • "As a matter of fact" should go (OK)
  • I'd suggest removing the names of the daughters, just referring to them as the daughters. (Sure)
  • "During World War II the land was used for growing crops due to the food shortage, and the cultivation of the land helped improve the turf condition for the playing areas." That's really interesting and would make a great DYK hook. Do you have a source for that? (Yes, in the council plan)
  • I really like the history of when things were built, do you have a source for them? We could possibly even expand the information about the building into the article, because they are unlikely to warrant an article of their own, but the would fit well here. It depends what info you've found on the buildings. (also in the council plan)
  • What's a "sealed" walking/cycling track? Is it just the type of paving? (I was wondering the same, maybe not open to the road.)

• Activities seems to be restating something from earlier, but that isn't an issue if we make the first section into the article lead. We will need sources though. (OK)
• Geology, you've diversified slightly into geology of Southland. Try to keep focussed on the park, which might have slightly different geology and ecology, given that it's been landscaped as part of a city. For example, I'd be unhappy with the implication that there is gold under it! Having said that, this information would be great to add to the Southland article. (Yes, the park is too small to have these sections in it.)
• Ecology, similar to geology, you've gone slightly off topic. I like the first sentance, which plausibly refers to the history of the park, but the rest doesn't appear correct as it's about the Southland in general. Unless you've got any evidence that we can find these species in the park itself, I think much of it should really go. (Sure.)
• Similarly with the gallery. (Pick and choose, the birds are famous in New Zealand's biodiversity, read the first section in the New Zealand article.)
• I'm curious about the Miscellaneous section. Is that from a news article, or a letter to a newspaper? It doesn't really seem very relevant, but might point to what sort of trees are in the park. Can you let me know where you got that from? (Council plan again)
• Much of the further reading is more appropriate for the John Turnbull Thomson article, not the park article. I also don't recommend people read something I haven't read, because it might not be relevant. If you've got a reason to think it's relevant (a review perhaps?) then fine, but otherwise I'd say take it out. (Ok, I will move them.)
• You've got some External links which I'd suggest removed. Keep focus on the park. (OK)
• Finally, the image in the box. I'd really hope for a picture of the park, rather than that space image of New Zealand. I'd recommend that picture is removed. (OK)

I hope that's not too scary! You've done a really good job, and I can see this being a good article. When I suggested it to the other editor originally, I was expecting about a paragraph of text and an infobox - I'm amazed at how much information you've managed to pull together. Worm^TT(talk) 11:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Not at all, I will go through the list bit by bit. My source is mainly from the council plan and Teara. Thank you for the praise! You are a good mentor! :D --RexRowan^忍(Ninja signal) 11:39, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Carole's notes

This is work space to work on User:RexRowan/Turnbull Thomson Park

Item #1: Land managed by Environment Southland

From the first place I saw a citation, the article says: "A section of land managed by Environment Southland is in the middle of the reserve next to the railway line on south of Mary Street. Another piece forms a boundary to the reserve in the north west - next to the Mitre 10 Mega Store and Harvey Norman complex."<ref>Invercargill (N.Z.). City Council. Parks Administration, Turnbull Thomson Park: Management Plan : March 2008, Invercargill City Council, 2008.</ref>

From the source: "A parcel of land managed by Environment Southland can be found in the middle of the reserve adjacent to the railway line (south of Mary Street). Another piece of Environment Southland land forms a boundary to the reserve in the north west - adjacent to what is currently the Mitre 10 Mega Store and Harvey Norman complex."

Comments:

• This is very WP:Close paraphrasing, a form of copyright violation, because: 1) there is just a replacement of a few words, but essentially the sentences are written as the author had written them, 2) they follow in the same order in which they were written.
• There are a couple of ways to work on this 1) find more information from other sources to rewrite this section and expand on the information or 2) rewrite the sentences. Either way, the sentences have to be rewritten.
• When rewriting, one thing to consider is - how much of this information is needed. For instance, do we need to know that it's next to a Mega Store - or do we basically just need to know where it is in relation to a particular town, landmark, etc. It may be enough to say that there are two parcels of land, one in the center of the reserve and another in the northwest corner of the reserve (switching the order of the two).
• This prompts a question for me: why is it just these parcels that they are responsible for - answering that might be helpful in rewriting the sentences.

Would you like to take a stab at rewording the sentences, after having decided how much information should be in the article - and whether you want to fold in any additional information? (By the way, this is something I struggle with every day - how not to have sentence sound like it's just a minor paraphrase of the content. When someone brought it to my attention in my early writing days here, I rewrote the WP:Close paraphrasing article last year to make the points clearer for myself and others)

One tool is to start with an outline of the key points:

• Environment Southland manages land in and adjacent to the reserve
• One is in the center of the reserve
  • near the railway line
• Another "forms a boundary to the reserve in the north west"

Item #2: Maintenance checks

Article: "Children's playground equipments are given a monthly maintenance check and every six month a safety check by the city council to meet the New Zealand Safety Standard for Playgrounds."<ref name=council/> Source: "All playgrounds and play equipment in the Invercargill District shall be given a monthly maintenance check and a six monthly safety check to ensure all pieces of equipment are maintained to a safe standard and meet the current New Zealand Safety Standard for Playgrounds."

Outline:

• Playground equipment checked
  • monthly
  • six months
• ensure proper maintenance and safety checks
• meet New Zealand Safety Standard for Playgrounds

Comments:

• Yep, this is better - there's elimination of some words that aren't needed. Yeah, one step closer!
• The words still flow in basically the same order, though, - and use some of the same words that may not be needed (e.g., given, monthly maintenance check, six month safety check.
• It's just personal opinion about whether "monthly maintenance check" and "six month safety check" need to stay worded that way - it's just that the more that you can get across the basic points (they ensure safety is met and follow the standards) without using the author's words, the better.
• Do you think want to take a stab at rewriting the sentence the way you think it should be written to get the basic points across?

Note: Worm may know this, I don't - it may be that NZ Municipal Park documents are not copyrighted - and you can use close paraphrase. I still invite you to try to reword to get just the information that is needed for the article - and as a good practice since most sources have copyright issues.--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:55, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the tips Carole. I merged all the points together to form a paragraph and cut the specific time interval of checks and mention routine checks instead. --RexRowan^忍(Ninja signal) 08:10, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I've no reason to think that they are not copyrighted - it's always best to assume that they are. Worm^TT(talk) 08:57, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Item #3

1st half

• Article

3a "The main entrance to the park is off Lindisfarne Street, with many other open access points."

• Source - page 9 section 1.2

3a The park is well served for access. Lindisfarne Street provides the main street frontage however there are a number of key access points for user groups accessing their facilities and informal access points for the public.

• Comment: I think this is a good summary, eliminates unnecessary information and isn't all in the same order. The only suggestion is to use another term for access points - like "places to enter" or entry synonms. Other than that, I think it's good - it definitely gets the point across with fewer words!

Ok, done, changed into open entrances. --RexRowan^忍(Ninja signal) 08:13, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

2nd half

• Article

3b "The entire area is roughly divided into four main sections by Lindisfarne Street, South Island main trunk railway line and Otepuni Stream. It is roughly bounded by four different streets, on the north is Tay Street, on the west is Elles Road, on the east is Inglewood Road and on the south is Tweed Street. <ref name=council/>"

• Source - page 9 section 1.1

3b The reserve is roughly divided into four segments dissected by Lindisfarne Street running north-south, with the South Island main trunk railway line and Otepuni Stream running east-west. Otepuni Avenue and a band of industrial sections increase the separation of the two eastern portions. Broadly it is bounded by Elles Road, Tay Street, Inglewood Road and Tweed Street.

• Question: What is your opinion about this: does it seem to be in the author's voice? does it properly reword the information? is there any information that's not needed?--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Worm! I just realized I had been putting them in the wrong place.--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I am a bad offender, hehehe. Hope this sounds better The main entrance to the park is off Lindisfarne Street, with many other open entrances next to the roads. The park is bounded by four roads on the outskirt and divided by Lindisfarne street and the railway line in the middle into four parts. --RexRowan^忍(Ninja signal) 08:35, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

What do you think about: The main entrance to the park is off Lindisfarne Street. The park is divided by Lindisfarne street and the railway line into four sections.

Now that I see the revised sentences and think about it - if you mention the main entrance, then it's implied that there are other entrances.--CaroleHenson (talk) 12:44, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

That is a very good logic, sure! :D --RexRowan^忍(Ninja signal) 12:59, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Sources

• John Turnbull Thomson Mausoleum and Family Plot New Zealand Historic Places
• TURNBULL THOMSON PARK Management Plan ICC Government New Zealand