Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Blue men of the Minch/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 08:56, 9 July 2014 [1].

Blue men of the Minch

Nominator(s): Sagaciousphil (talk), Eric Corbett (talk) 20:16, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is the third article in our Scottish mythology series, about creatures in human form who inhabit the Minch, a strait between the norther Outer Hebrides and mainland Scotland. They may be a tribe of fallen angels, Picts, or North African slaves taken to Scotland by the Vikings. You decide. Eric Corbett 22:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Jamesx12345

This looks like another interesting one.

Just to note that there are no incoming links from The Minch.
We're not responsible for the Minch's article, which is little more than a stub anyway. Eric Corbett 21:15, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is now an incoming link. SagaciousPhil - Chat 14:46, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"complete two lines of poetry." - it isn't immediately clear that this is to follow on from an offering by the blue man.
I don't understand what you're getting at here. The text seems quite clear to me: "... their chief rises up out of the water and shouts two lines of poetry to the skipper, and if he cannot add two lines to complete the verse the blue men seize his boat." Eric Corbett 21:21, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
After reading it, I thought for a few seconds that the captain would just have to finish (complete) two lines of poetry, maybe a rhyming couplet. Even appending "...offered by the blue man." would make it clearer. James^x12345 21:36, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But that's exactly what happens; the chief of the blue men shouts out two lines of verse, then the skipper adds two lines to complete the verse. The chief may then shout out another two lines, which the skipper would also have to complete, and so on. Maybe Sagaciousphil will have more luck than me in understanding what it is you're getting at. Eric Corbett 12:40, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I also felt it wasn't really necessary; however, it could be Eric and I have read it so many times there is a subliminal type effect coming into play, so I have amended it as per James' suggestion. SagaciousPhil - Chat 14:46, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"boats resembling kayaks" - I can't help but feel that this is a bit dubious, and "small boats" is more likely to be correct.
The source says "... perhaps something like the kayaks of the 'Finn-men'". Eric Corbett 21:15, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I saw that, but some quick research suggests that coracles and currachs would have been used. A kayak is a very particular design of boat. James^x12345 21:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But that's not what the source says, and we're not at liberty to draw conclusions from our own research. Eric Corbett 12:34, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I did have a quick look to see if I could find any sources suggesting "currachs" but without any success. As Eric says, kayaks is specifically used in the source we have, so we can't synthesise it into currachs; the author was probably attempting to come up with something modern day readers could visualise (whoops, now I'm hypothesising!)? Thanks for trying to research it, James - if you do have a source that says the blue men used currachs, please let us know and we'll certainly consider using it. SagaciousPhil - Chat 14:46, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here are two fairly reliable sources on the boats that would have been used by Picts. I don't think there is good reason to say "coracle", although that is likely to be the kind of boat in question, but "resembling a kayak" is almost certainly wrong. A kayak is long and pointy, whereas a coracle is like a bathtub. A search for "Pictish kayak" produces no meaningful results. James^x12345 17:05, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, James, but I'm really not following where those books can tie in with this? Kingshill/Westwood are reliable sources - they are not saying it was a kayak, only that it was possibly similar to a kayak. To use anything else without a direct tie-in to the blue men would, I think, be original research. SagaciousPhil - Chat 04:16, 20 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a note about the fact that this is is suggested to be borrowed from the Finn-men, as Picts in kayaks would alarm a few people. James^x12345 21:18, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"The tempestuous water around the..." - this sentence is confusing. "The tempestuous water around the Shiant Isles 19 kilometres (12 mi) to the north of Skye is known as the Current of Destruction owing to the number of ships wrecked there. This area, subject to rapid tides in all weathers, is where the caves inhabited by the blue men are located." - maybe.
Some redundancy removed.
"These turbulent waters are inhabited by several spirits." - this sentence is very abrupt. "These turbulent waters are inhabited by several other mythical spirits." - possibly expand on that.
I've merged that sentence with the previous one. Any expansion ought to be in the Minch's article, not this one. Eric Corbett 21:29, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Are the Annals of Ireland known to be any of these? Might be a long shot.

Unfortunately it's not specified - I might be able to make a guess at it but that's going into original research again ;-) so not a good idea! I also think it would be starting to stray off topic. SagaciousPhil - Chat 14:46, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not too keen on the use of the word "negro", not only because it is potentially offensive but also because the word itself has very strong connections with the colour black, more so than "black person," making the translations seem a bit off.
It is nevertheless the word chosen by the translator, so we're not at liberty to choose an alternative word some may find less offensive. I don't see anything offensive about the word in any case. Eric Corbett 12:31, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't find it offensive in the context we have used; it is also included as a direct quote that is not used in any derogatory way and provides a good explanation as to where the origins of the story may lie. SagaciousPhil - Chat 14:46, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The single note works equally well as parenthesis.
Fine. Eric Corbett 12:31, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Crisco comments

The #Etymology section is but two sentences in length. I'd try and merge it somewhere, or expand further.
I've added some commentary about the blue men's alternative name of storm kelpies. Eric Corbett 13:40, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The blue men may have been part of a tribe of "fallen angels" that split into three; the first became the ground dwelling fairies, the second evolved to become the sea inhabiting blue men, and the remainder the "Merry Dancers" of the Northern Lights in the sky. - We should be clear from the get-go that these are mythological, I think. You don't use "mythical" in this section until the next sentence. Further sentences such as "Blue men have the power to create severe storms," likewise blur the boundaries.
"Mythical" has been added to the first sentence, to establish the frame of reference for the rest of the section. And having established that frame of reference I think it would be tedious to prefix every mention of the blue men's attributes or powers with words such as reputed, alleged, claimed and so on. Eric Corbett 13:40, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I liked it better before "fabled", "legendary", etc. were each added several times into the text. The section is named "Folk beliefs", and given the very whimsical topic at hand, I don't think there should be any confusion. It's not a big deal, but surely there's a compromise between acknowledging the mythical nature of the stories in general and reaffirming it every paragraph. – Juliancolton | ^Talk 14:57, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So did I. Eric Corbett 15:14, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken it back a notch or two, hopefully a compromise? SagaciousPhil - Chat 17:55, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Church of Scotland Minister John Brand - Per WP:SEAOFBLUE this should be reworked or a link should be removed. I'd take out the link to "minister"
"Minister" has been delinked. Eric Corbett 13:40, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise nothing from me. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:38, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking the time to have a look. Eric Corbett 13:41, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support Another great article on Scottish folklore from the two of you. Thanks. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:30, 20 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Crisco! SagaciousPhil - Chat 09:34, 20 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support – following my previous comment, I'm happy to offer my support for an interesting and engaging article. – Juliancolton | ^Talk 14:01, 20 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - glad you enjoyed it! SagaciousPhil - Chat 14:43, 20 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hamiltonstone. Very interesting and couldn't fault it.hamiltonstone (talk) 03:36, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! SagaciousPhil - Chat 03:40, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image and source check by Hamiltonstone

Two images, both with appropriate licensing.
Sources: footnotes 6, 13: why is this a location number rather than a page number?

Clarified to show ASIN for Kindle ebook.

OK, i guess this comes from being technologically backward - i still don't know what that number is that appears after the author and year in the Harvard cite: is it a paragraph number? An entry number? It needs some sort of explanation. The cite template says it is a location (I assume that is what is meant by "loc"), but i don't know what that means. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:10, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ebooks don't generally have page numbers, they have location numbers, i.e. a position in the eBook that can be used just like a page number to find a specific piece of text. I really don't think it's our job to explain how eBooks work. Eric Corbett 12:24, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, but at the moment i have no idea what that number is - so i can't tell if it has something to do with an e-book or something else. That's the virtue of the "p." for page, or "para" for paragraph. Isn't there a symbol or abbreviation for an ebook location number, so we know it's an ebook location number? hamiltonstone (talk) 12:41, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've added "loc." - does that help? SagaciousPhil - Chat 13:01, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Footnote 17: this looks like a reference to a journal article item, but the reference is listed in the bibliography, but the references 26, 35 and 38 are journal articles that are listed in the citations. What's the rationale here?

Changed footnote 17 to citation.

Also re footnote 17: why is it listed as anonymous? My suspicion is that an editor has been able to locate this information using google books but because of snippet view, hasn't been able to locate the author of the paper in which it occurs. But the paper almost certainly does have an author - it's just that their name needs to be hunted down...

Inserted author and article title.

Otherwise good.hamiltonstone (talk) 06:35, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Hamiltonstone, I think we've now tweaked those. SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:47, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.