Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jennifer Lawrence/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 20:31, 17 January 2017 [1].

Jennifer Lawrence

edit
Nominator(s): FrB.TG (talk) 10:22, 9 December 2016 (UTC), Snuggums (talk / edits) and Krimuk2.0[reply]

Jennifer Lawrence has impressively been the highest-paid actress in the world since 2015. She has also set a few records at the Oscars. The article was expanded by me and Krimuk2.0 (who unfortunately has retired) till the personal life section in May. Recently I decided to complete our work on it. We are ready to address any prose concerns - I believe there will be quite a few of them - you might have. Enjoy! – FrB.TG (talk) 10:22, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Source review and spotchecks

edit

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • FN40 should have a time or chapter reference
The other reference covers everything FN40 was used to support the statement so I simply removed it.
Replaced - many thanks, Nikki. – FrB.TG (talk) 21:10, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Wehwalt

edit
Support Excellently done, it reads very well. Just a few comments and I've made some hands-on edits you are free to revert if you do not like:
Resolved comments from Wehwalt
  • "After performing in church plays and school musicals during her childhood, a talent scout spotted her in New York City when she was 14." if you read this literally, the talent scout did the performing.
  • "highest-grossing action heroine " what is an action heroine? I know she was quite athletic in The Hunger Games, is that it? Do we have a suitable article to link?
  • "She also won" I might say "She has won". She is still alive and may win more awards.
  • "continued to take on parts" I would say "continued to take part". They did not send her scripts to review and discuss with her agent at this point.
  • " Lawrence's mother was not keen on allowing her to pursue an acting career, but she briefly moved to the city to let her read for roles." this feels a bit confused, with who some of the pronouns refer to unclear. I take it that Mrs. Lawrence moved to the city with Jennifer, I would say after the comma: "but temporarily relocated to the city with her so Lawrence could read for roles". Or some such.
  • "Despite opposition from her parents, she signed on with the CESD Talent Agency, who convinced her parents to let their daughter audition for roles in Los Angeles." Well, wasn't parental consent needed to sign?
  • "with a high score" Is a score needed to graduate high school? Was this on the equivalency exam, or are grades meant?
  • The first paragraph of the 2011 section could usefully be split.
  • "made her an ideal role model for youngsters" I would cut "for youngsters" first because I think it's implied and second because I'm not thrilled about the word. Also, role model is linked on a subsequent usage and not here.
    I'm not sure I see the need to keep stating the years on the various films, meaning subsequent, non-linked mentions.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your suggestions and especially for your copyedits - much appreciated, as always. - FrB.TG (talk) 22:06, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dank

edit

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

Comments from Aoba47

edit
Resolved comments from Aoba47
Comments from Aoba
  • In the sentences about The Burning Plain in the "Career beginnings and breakthrough" sub-section, you seem to favor the positive review of by including the quote from it, while not fully expanding on the negative review in the same way. This may come across as a bit of a bias (I have never worked on an article like this so feel free to correct me if I am wrong). It may be best to add a brief phrase to the negative review explaining why they felt she was miscast (just a brief paraphrase of a few words on how they felt the transition fro Lawrence to Theron was unbelievable, a quote is not necessary). Let me know if this makes any sense.
Explained.
Thank you! Aoba47 (talk) 18:13, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not sure if it would be helpful for this article, but do you think you should add in a brief sentence following the X-Men: Apocalypse bits in the "Established actress" sub-section that Lawrence has publicly said she would not reprise the role of Mystique for future X-Men movies?
I think she said that back in June or near that month but I see a plan to sign JLaw in the sequel. Let us wait until the filming for the next film begins.
Makes sense, it is too soon to tell for this. Aoba47 (talk) 18:13, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is more of a note for you, but the parts about Passengers could use an up-date in the near future as the film will be released soon.
I will.
Thank you, just making sure. Aoba47 (talk) 18:13, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Great work with the page. I only have relatively minor comments. Once my review is addressed, then I will support the nomination. Aoba47 (talk) 17:11, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the suggestions. - FrB.TG (talk) 17:34, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Very well-done article! Aoba47 (talk) 18:13, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

edit
  • No audio files used, images only.
  • All images were originally uploaded on Flickr and are properly licensed.
  • Good use of captions that illustrate the image in a clear and concise manner for the reader. All images in the body of the article are appropriate for the sections.
  • Every image has an appropriate ALT description.

Everything looks good with the images. Good luck with the rest of the comments. Aoba47 (talk) 18:26, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the review and support, Aoba47 :) Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:23, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Anytime! Aoba47 (talk) 21:59, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Moisejp

edit

Support on prose. I haven't spot-checked any sources. I did make several minor copy-edits. A couple of other minor points that don't affect my support:

Resolved comments from Moisejp
  • "During the film's production, Lawrence damaged some of her costumes, causing the wardrobe department to create a number of identical dresses.[63]" Actually I did look at the source for this one because I couldn't figure out the notability of this fact in the context of her career or even as a notable anecdote from the film's production. The source in fact seems to say that production was planning to make multiple dresses anyway, due to the planned spilling of champagne on the dress—so that should definitely be changed. But back to my original concern, is this sentence notable enough, or would it be worthwhile to remove?
  • "Lawrence did not study acting and was not involved in professional theater.[9]" Possibly it's OK, but I was wondering about the nuance between "was not involved" vs. "has not been involved". "Was not" assumes that theater would necessarily be earlier in one's career as a way to learn the craft. That may often be the case. But other successful film actors decide to also do theater later in their career, which is a logical possibility, in which case "has not been involved" is more accurate. It's true that "has not been involved" loses some of the impact of supporting the idea that Lawrence jumped right into (TV and) film without formally learning the craft. So I'm not insisting on one or the other, I just wanted to confirm you have carefully considered this question. Thanks. Moisejp (talk) 20:47, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks, Moisejp - both your points have been considered and addressed. Also, thanks much for your copyedits. - FrB.TG (talk) 21:01, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Same from me, Moisejp :D Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:04, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article states she played the daughter of Mel Gibson and Jodi Foster's characters in "The Beaver". She did not. She played the girlfriend of their son. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eindaeast (talk • contribs) 14:30, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Corrected, thanks. - FrB.TG (talk) 14:57, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have any other comments, Eindaeast ? Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:29, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from HJ Mitchell

edit

Comments HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:16, 29 December 2016 (UTC) Lead:[reply]

  • The lead paragraph doesn't really tell us what she's known for. We get that she's an actress, she's made a lot of money, she's earned lots of awards, then we jump to feminism and philanthropy without learning anything about her acting. There wouldn't be any of the other stuff if it hadn't been for her acting so the emphasis should be on that.
Yup, that sort of info can be found in the biographies of senior actors but Lawrence is a bit young for that. She is not particularly known for the types of roles she plays and things of that sort. I think for now it is enough just to discuss her success. - FrB.TG (talk) 08:51, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • On that note, the lead isn't huge for a 4,000-word article, so you've got room to play with. If it was "my" article, I'd keep paragraphs two and three pretty much as they are, move the politics and philanthropy to a fourth paragraph and maybe add a tiny bit more detail (notable feminist statements, charitable work done by the foundation), then use the first paragraph for a summary within a summary and to introduce her biggest claims to fame.
Me too, but it does look awkward jumping from money to feminism to philanthropy. I have shifted the philanthropy and politics parts to fourth para but I don't think there is anything more beyond that which can be added to the lead. - FrB.TG (talk) 08:51, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • It takes a moment to parse all the adjectives in "with the acclaimed role of a poverty-stricken teenager in the independent drama"; maybe lose "acclaimed role"?
  • "established her as the highest-grossing action heroine of all time. She has earned several accolades from her collaborations with director David O. Russell." That's a bit of a jolt; I'd expect more than half a sentence on her best-known and most successful role, but the prose jumps abruptly to different projects.
  • The three sentences about the awards need a bit of a rewrite; they seem very repetitive at the moment and "in the two aforementioned films and for starring as the eponymous inventor" is very awkward.
  • I was mildly surprised that Passengers wasn't mentioned in the lead, nor is anything about her public image.

Early life

  • "Jennifer Shrader Lawrence was born on August 15, 1990..." The normal convention is to cite the full name and DOB in the lead so you don't have to repeat it (this one of the exceptions to WP:LEADCITE)
  • "she was spotted by a talent scout" on the street, or was she performing/auditioning?

Career

  • "made her film debut with a supporting role in the independent drama film Garden Party" a few words about this role would be good; it's her film debut, after all.

That's as far as the 2011–2013 subsection for now; more tomorrow hopefully. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:16, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments so far, HJ Mitchell. It might not be perfect at the moment, but the article hopefully looks better now. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:10, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "something a little lighter" is that a quote from Lawrence herself? It's not entirely clear from the context; does the quote really add anything?
I have already paraphrased, and I can't see any serious objection on that, as paraphrasing is always good. - FrB.TG (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Despite being an admirer of the books, Lawrence was initially hesitant to accept the part, as she was intimidated by the scale of the film, and pondered how it would affect her career" What do we mean by "intimidated by the scale"? Is there any more detail in the sources about why she was reluctant and what effect she envisaged on her career? Was she looking to go back to something more serious, for example, or just trying to avoid being typecast in a sort of role? Do the sources elaborate on how her mother changed her mind?
+'d grand to scale as in "grand scale". Hopefully that is clear. I read the source to see if there is anything worth adding about her mother convincing her to take on the film. It says that her mother told her not be scared by the film's size, but I don't think that is anything worth mentioning in fact that will just make the prose repetitive. Do you have any suggestion? - FrB.TG (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand what scale means but I was wondering why she was intimidated by this role in particular, and what her concerns were when she "pondered how it would affect her career". HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:47, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Those are the other editor's (who is inactive here) words so I don't exactly know what he meant by this, but I have now used a quote from Lawrence, in which she expressed her concerns about taking on the project. But if it still does not make sense, an attempt can be made to remove this bit from the article. - FrB.TG (talk) 16:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I get the meaning and I don't think it needs to be removed (though I like your re-written version). I was just wondering if there were any more details. In a biography of an actor, it's interesting that they hesitated before taking on the role that gave them their big break. If the sources aren't there there's not much we can do, but it would enhance the article if we knew what Lawrence's thoughts were. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:05, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Any other recommendations for the article or does it now look FA-worthy? Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:09, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, unfortunately that happens very much to the bios of contemporary actors like Lawrence. I often see in several bios that say certain actor was skeptical on taking up a role but s/he later changed his/her mind without clarifying why as the source does not do so. It is really an uphill task to write about them with the lack of literature and scholarly sources. I guess we just have to write from whatever we find. - FrB.TG (talk) 21:29, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sad but true :/ Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:47, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's the challenge with this sort of article. It's not easy to write a comprehensive biography of someone whose success is so recent, but we're about the only place you'll find one so it's that much more important. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:24, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "An Empire writer considered..." Was this reflective of the consensus among critics? Is there anything more that's worth adding about Apocalypse? The prose just seems to jump a little from a negative review to gross takings.
I remember critics deeming Apocalypse the worst in the X-Men series and I can see why. It got really bad reviews so yeah you could probably say that. - FrB.TG (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I read a few reviews of Passengers before I went to see it, and Lawrence seems to have attracted praise for making the best of a poor film. Don't feel obliged to use it just because I brought it up, but one that caught my attention wrt Lawrence was this one, which concludes "Lawrence is no passenger. She’s carrying this thing".
  • "Lawrence is vocal about issues pertaining to women's rights." I'd have expected at least a couple of sentences about when and where she was vocal about issues that matter to her.
I believe the para does discuss that e.g. her speaking about gender pay gap and not supporting a party that does not support women's rights. Another one added that talks about her promoting body positivity among women. Hopefully enough. - FrB.TG (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing fundamental here, and I can't see any reason not to support once these minor concerns are addressed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:04, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. - FrB.TG (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Excellent work. As I said above, it's not easy to write these sorts of articles but people come to Wikipedia looking for them so it's important work. My minor criticisms have been addressed to the extent possible; there are details that would enhance the article here and there, but we can only go with the sources. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:24, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your input and support, HJ Mitchell :D Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:32, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from John

edit

Not bad. First pass comments; too many quotes and weird image formatting. Will look further. --John (talk) 19:42, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any specific quotes you feel should be paraphrased? Sorry if there's too many at the moment, but I'm not sure which ones to change without there being too few. Do tell how the image formatting could be improved. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:44, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The only quotes which should be kept are a very small number which are irreplaceable, ideally ones where the exact words of the quote have become part of the "story" of the subject. The others can be summarised. The upright images should be formatted by using the upright parameter. --John (talk) 21:01, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Implemented upright parameter into pics. Quotes will probably take some time to sort through. Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:09, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Quotes are major part of biographies of actors/actresses. It is the media speaking about them and their words cannot always be paraphrased the way they describe films/actors using adjectives. The article has only quotes of film reviews, of her speaking about her films and thoughts, and some other ones from directors and media publications of what they think about the actress – nothing particular that other FA-class actors/actresses do not have. If you could point some out that you feel are unnecessary that would be great. - FrB.TG (talk) 21:26, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There are too many and at present I would oppose on WP:QUOTEFARM. I can take a look at which ones should be paraphrased. It may or may not be tonight though. --John (talk) 22:02, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have paraphrased/trimmed some quotes and would be interested to know if there are any other unnecessary ones. - FrB.TG (talk) 10:16, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's a good start. Let's look at what we have now. I'll do it section by section.

Early life

    • She describes her childhood as an "unhappy" experience, as she suffered from hyperactivity and social anxiety and considered herself a misfit among her peers. This can be paraphrased without losing anything. Good encyclopedic writing is not ctr-C, ctrl-V.
    • Lawrence says that her anxieties would "disappear" when she performed onstage and that acting "made me happy because I felt capable whereas before I felt good for nothing". Paraphrase.
    • Describing her early experiences, Lawrence says: "It was hard at first. I didn't have any friends. I remember being kind of lonely." Paraphrase. --John (talk) 00:13, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Shall we continue with quotes, @John:? - FrB.TG (talk) 14:48, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. Take all the time you need. - FrB.TG (talk) 06:25, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have been moving house and it has taken longer than expected. My Internet is now on but I only have an IPad to work with at present. Do you mind if I just edit the article directly? I propose to paraphrase a few of the quotes and clean up some of the language. Easier if I just do it then discuss here than posting suggestions here. That ok? John (talk) 20:48, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely, easier for us too. And a discussion would be needed only when there is disagreement. – FrB.TG (talk) 21:00, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that, and for your patience. I will definitely get to this in the next few hours. --John (talk) 22:12, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Looking forward to it :) Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:13, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That came out really well! I was a bit concerned at first about the nude hacks bit, but thankfully your revision didn't take out the crucial bit agreed upon in the extensive discussion mattbuck mentioned. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:17, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Echoing my co-nom: great copyediting. I must say I consider this nomination of mine lucky to have so many great reviews. – FrB.TG (talk) 08:49, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I now support. I may still slightly trim some more quotes but it's passed the level I support at now. Well done, it's a great article. --John (talk) 12:04, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Very much appreciated, John :D! Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:27, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ritchie333

edit

I don't know Jennifer Lawrence from a hole in the ground I'm afraid, but I'll see what I can do....

  • Is it worth clarifiying what a "children's camp" is - is this a holiday camp or something slightly different?
  • Lawrence was educated at the Kammerer Middle School in Louisville As multiple Lawrences are being referred to in this section, I think WP:LASTNAME means we should go with "Jennifer" instead.
  • I can't say I'm jumping up and down with excitement about using People as a source in an FA, though I seem to recall long drawn-out conversations at WP:RSN that says it's okay.
  • It's far from the best source overall compared to other publications, but certainly not the worst either. If including it, then I personally would just limit its use to non-contentious claims. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:04, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Rolling Stone source mentions her family was predominantly boys and she was raised accordingly; this would be worth adding as it explains why she didn't play with girls much
  • her mother convinced her that they were lying - I'm confused; who was convincing whom?

More later, hopefully Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:00, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I look forward to it, Ritchie333. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:04, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Richie, did you want to add anything? I'd like to try and close this soon... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:14, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I've been caught up with other things. How quickly do you need comments? I wouldn't worry about waiting for me if it's important, I think enough experienced eyes have looked over this. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:39, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If possible, any additional input you might have is best given within the next day or two. Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:44, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from mattbuck

edit
Addressed concern from Mattbuck

I don't mean to rain on the parade of other commenters here, but I would not suggest paraphrasing everything. Specifically the comments regarding the iCloud hack of 2014, Lawrence was especially strident in her statements, and it is worth quoting them. This was discussed last year at Talk:Jennifer_Lawrence/Archive_2#Scandal, and the version which stood in the article (and which I reverted to) was the preferred wording. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:16, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No parade has been rained on, at least for me. I never said, and don't intend to say, that all quotes should be paraphrased. Here's a repeat of my comment: The only quotes which should be kept are a very small number which are irreplaceable, ideally ones where the exact words of the quote have become part of the "story" of the subject. The others can be summarised. ... --John (talk) 21:01, 4 January 2017 (UTC) and I stand by that. I will have a look at the discussion you refer to above. Of course, FAC is a higher bar than peer review and what was agreed there does not necessarily bind us here. I am sure we can haggle in good faith but the highlighted text continues to describe my (and Wikipedia's) position on quotes. I hope that makes sense. --John (talk) 18:13, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've now read the article talk discussion and the BLPN one. Very interesting, thank you for bringing it to my attention. I stand by what I said though; a form of words selected for BLP compliance a year and a bit ago isn't automatically going to pass FA standards. Neither am I saying at this point that I want to change that particular bit, I haven't got that far yet. --John (talk) 19:48, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My parade hasn't been rained on either. John did in fact make it clear that pertinent quotes should be kept, and that RFC (which I participated in) concluded that this quote indeed was very important to have. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:04, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Good to know we're all in agreement that the sun is out! I just wanted to make sure that what was I thought a very important quote wasn't lost. Most people when something like that happens would apologise and say it was a mistake, Lawrence's "no, this is a crime, fuck you" stance was unusual in content and vehemence. -mattbuck (Talk) 10:55, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator notes

edit

Coordinator notes: I think we are just about there now. Just a few queries from me on which I'd like reassurance before we promote:

  • "and was brought up as "tough" like them" and "Jennifer's mother did not allow her to play with other girls in preschool as she deemed her "too rough" as a result of her upbringing": I'm not too clear on the meaning of these words in quotation marks in this context. "Tough" and "Rough" are very vague terms and we should either explicitly spell out what they mean in this context or use a full quote. Given the concerns expressed above over quotes, I think the first option is better.
  • Why are we calling her Jennifer in that section? I think it's fairly clear who we are talking about if we stick to "Lawrence"...
  • ... but can we do a check of the number of times we use "Lawrence"? A ctrl-F search suggests we are over-using her name, including many times in the same paragraph, on many occasions.
@Sarastro1: Now reduced. - FrB.TG (talk) 21:31, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is always worth asking this question for these types of articles: The reviews of her performances here are fairly glowing. How certain are we that a) This is a fair representation of the sources and that we have covered all the major views and b) That there are no reviews in reputable sources that say that she ISN'T amazing.
  • If you look in the "2014-present" section, there is "criticized Lawrence for making her character too grim" for X-Men: Apocalypse and "considered her character to be of minimal importance" for Passengers. While wanting the positive and negative comments balanced out is understandable, I admittedly haven't seen very many negative bits on her compared to positive ones. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:39, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although not a FA requirement (and this won't hold up promotion), I would recommend looking at the alt text for the images and checking that we are following best practice. The 2011 Academy Awards image alt looks like it might need to give her name. If there is any uncertainty, RexxS is probably the best person to ask. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:18, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: This has had a lot of review now. There may still be one or two last points to address from reviewers, or further points that arise, but these can be taken up on the article talk page. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Jennifer_Lawrence/archive1&oldid=1075706179"