Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/New York City/archive4

New York City

2 months later, the nomination of New York City as a featured article returns! I looked over some of the problems with the last namination and decided to do some research:

Wikipedia Article	Total size	"readable prose"	# Words
Seattle, Washington	83K	49K	7800
Detroit, Michigan	69K	40K	6300
San Francisco, California	81K	39K	6250
Boston, Massachusetts	59K	37K	5900
New York City	57K	33K	5300

August 2006

These are other cities that are currently featured articles. In comparison, I think New York City should have made the cut since that was the main issue. Blackjack48 21:38, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment So how much "readable prose" is there in the NYC article?--DaveOinSF 21:56, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By my count, there are 5300 words and 33K of "readable prose" in the NYC article.--DaveOinSF 01:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, just what do you two mean by "readable prose"? The text of the article excluding footnotes, captions & infoboxes? Please, let's try not to use jargon that not all Wikipedians either are not familiar with -- or are unable to easily find a published definition for. -- llywrch 16:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, didn't think this was obscure. According to Wikipedia:Article size:

"Readable prose" is the main body of the text, excluding sections such as:

Footnotes and reference sections ("see also", "external links", footnotes, bibliography, etc)
Diagrams and images
Tables and lists
Wikilinks and external URLs
Formatting and mark-up.

--DaveOinSF 16:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Object. Some items to address:

Please correct the links so that the article talk page links to the failed FAC as well as the new FAC. I can't find the old FAC, but I seem to recall that I objected to a POV issue, which still seems to be present. The failed FAC shouldn't be removed from the talk page: has the new FAC overwritten the older one?
I don't recall what the older objection on prose size was, but I come up with Overall 57KB, 35 KB prose, which is a "normal" and acceptable article size, but seems a bit short for an important city, in relation to the others. This should not be an objection if this article makes good use of Summary Style (and perhaps the others didn't). Without seeing the older FAC, it's hard to understand why this issue is raised. (For those who asked, here is how readable prose was explained to me.)
The article needs to conform to WP:GTL: please reorganize sections. (See all of the articles you referenced above: they are done correctly.)
I still have a POV objection, which I believe I raised in the last FAC.
It emerged from the war as the unquestioned leading city of the world, with Wall Street leading America's emergence as the world's dominant economic power, the United Nations headquarters (built in 1952) emphasizing its political influence, and the rise of Abstract Expressionism displacing Paris as the center of the art world.[6]

PBS very well may believe that New York City is the Center of the Universe, and they may have even found others who agree. But, baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet aside, asserting that opinion as fact, even based on a reliable (albeit biased) source, is POV. "Unquestioned leading city of the world" is an extraordinary claim: it requires extraordinary sources. It would be easier to accept if London and Paris sources said the same thing.
Reference 8 is missing.
Please expand all refs (example ref 35, Safest cities according to SanJose gov.)
I cleaned up some typos in a couple of refs just to give you a sample of work needed. Since this is your second nom, the refs should exemplify our best work :-)
Lacking citations - examples from one section only - there are numerous others throughout the article:

(Where is this article?) Writer Tom Wolfe said of New York that "Culture just seems to be in the air, like part of the weather."
(Where did you get this number of seats?) The city's 39 largest theatres (with more than 500 seats) are collectively known as "Broadway," after the major thoroughfare through the Times Square theatre district.
(Likely true, so why not provide a source?) The Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, which includes Jazz at Lincoln Center, the Metropolitan Opera, the New York City Opera, the New York Philharmonic and the New York City Ballet, is the largest performing arts center in the United States.

New Jersey Nets are a New York Team? New York has two NBA teams: the New York Knicks and the New Jersey Nets.
Weasle words, no cite. New York is often called "the media capital of the world".

These examples are only a start: the article needs more work. Sandy 16:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, they were the New York Nets originally, and might be moving back there. In the sports world, they generally are considered a New York team. The article could explain this a bit better though. --W.marsh 22:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Sandy Georgia KnightLago 01:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Object Some problems with the footnotes:

2 needs access date
4 needs access date
5 needs expanding; what is referred to?
8 is missing
9 needs page reference if possible
10 needs page reference if possible
12 needs page reference if possible
18 needs page reference if possible & WPA Guide needs publisher & year
24 needs page reference if available
35 needs expanding: who? when?
37 publication data?
42 publication date?
48 Bureau of Transportatin Statistics .. US? NYC? NY State?

I would love to see NYC get FA status, as it and London are the top two Global World Cities and they deserve FA-quality articles. I hope some editors take the suggestions mentioned here and make some progress. --Paul 17:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per referencing problems and above. Never Mystic (t c) 20:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]