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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Susanna Hoffs/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 6 August 2024 [1].

Susanna Hoffs

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Nominator(s): BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Susannah Hoffs is probably best known as a member of popular music group the Bangles; she co-wrote their hit "Eternal Flame". Her cinematic career has been less successful than her musical endeavours, which have included several solo albums and collaborations. In 2023 her novel This Bird Has Flown was well-received by critics. All suggestions for improvements to the article are appreciated. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

750h

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lead
  • Considering, as per the "Early life" section, her middle name is "Lee", why isn't this mentioned in the lead ("Susanna Hoffs (born January 17, 1959) is an American singer, guitarist," ==> "Susanna Lee Hoffs (born January 17, 1959) is an American singer, guitarist,")
  • Following tensions and resentment of Hoffs's perceived leadership, the band split in 1989, reformed in 1999 and released albums in 2003 and 2011. add a comma after "1999".
  • and formed the faux British 1960s band Ming Tea, with Mike Myers and Matthew Sweet comma unneeded
early career
  • with sisters Vicki and Debbi Peterson, and shared a house should there be a comma?
the bangles
  • recounted that she had been looking at selected members of the crowd, to counter is the a comma needed?
  • He attended some of the group's concerts, and occasionally comma needed?
solo career
  • Prior to leaving Columbia Records, Hoffs Change "prior to" to "before" for conciseness
  • Hoffs's fourth studio album, was release on Baroque Folk Records in 2021. change "release" to "released".
  • The album includes interpretations of the Rolling Stones, Squeeze, Lesley Gore and received should have an "and" before Lesley Gore.
other collaborations
  • The trio made a number of club and TV... change "a number of" to something like numerous/several/many

that's all from me. solid work. 750h+ 10:12, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Much appreciated, 750h+. Let me know if anything else is required. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support 750h+ 00:34, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pseud 14

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  • Per MOS:ROLEBIO, we should only use her most notable roles, which I think is American singer-songwriter and actress and the other sundry roles can be listed in the infobox (which they already are).
  • and number one "Walk Like an Egyptian" -- and number one single
  • included the US top-ten hit -- we should avoid using terms like "hit"
  • and released albums in 2003 and 2011. -- perhaps the albums can be named here, as it appears that have wiki articles.

Started looking at the lead for now. Will endeavor to complete over the weekend. Pseud 14 (talk) 20:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I amended the lead per the points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Changes on the lead looks good. Pseud 14 (talk) 01:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More comments:

  • She is the couple's only daughter; they also have two sons John and Jesse -- I think a colon is needed after sons
  • and noted that while her mother was religious and kept kosher, -- and said that while her mother...
  • Her maternal grandfather Ralph Simon was a rabbi in Chicago and her maternal uncle Matthew Simon was rabbi emeritus -- Her maternal grandfather, Ralph Simon, was a rabbi in Chicago and her maternal uncle, Matthew Simon, was rabbi emeritus
  • she and then-boyfriend David Roback (a former schoolmate from Palisades High School) -- I think you can remove the parenthethical and use commas instead
  • She said that the first real performance was with the Bangles -- I would link this first instance of the Bangles, and remove the link from "The Bangs" section
  • the text has been amended by another editor; I've added the link in the Bangles section but let me know what you think.
  • Meanwhile, Annette Zilinskas joined as the bass player -- link bass
  • In 1983, the group signed to Columbia Records -- the group was signed to Columbia Records
  • The Bangles released their first full album All Over the Place in 1984 on Columbia Records -- The Bangles released their first full album, All Over the Place, in 1984 on Columbia Records
  • Their breakthrough hit was the 1986 single "Manic Monday" -- I would probably use an alternative wording in place of "hit"
  • This single was released as a track on the album -- The single was released
  • and went double-platinum -- and was certified double-platinum
  • and was their first American gold record single -- unlink "gold record" per MOS:DUPLINK
  • Dickerson wrote that "Manic Monday" and "Walk Like an Egyptian" "open the door to a new audience of female fans" -- suggest maybe paraphrasing "open the door to a new audience of female fans" instead.
  • In the video for "Walk Like an Egyptian" -- music video is more appropriate I think
  • Writing in the same paper a few months later, Richard Williams also compared Hoffs to Nicks, writing that Hoffs's "dark eyes -- maybe an alternate wording for the second instance of "writing" to avoid being repetitive
  • The Bangles had another US number two hit with a cover of Simon & Garfunkel's "A Hazy Shade of Winter" -- maybe had another US number two single instead of hit"
  • indicating "Generally favorable reviews". -- I think this can be in lower case

I've read up to "The Bangles". Will continue with the rest soon. Pseud 14 (talk) 21:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • on Rainy Day's album Rainy Day (1984) -- suggest changing to Rainy Day's 1984 self-titled album
  • worth linking - A-side
  • New York Times critic Janet Maslin panned the movie as -- The New York Times critic Janet Maslin panned the movie as
  • The album received a negative critical reception and did not sell well. -- perhaps we can say the album was a critical and commercial failure
  • the album was rated as a "dud" by Christgau. -- Should be capitalized since it looks like the quotation that precedes it ends in period. Alternatively, we can use "It" was rated, since "the album" is mentioned in the previous sentence.
  • Before leaving Columbia Records, Hoffs recorded tracks with producer Matt Wallace for a follow-up album in 1993–94 – including some songs written by Mark Linkous of Sparklehorse – but the album was not released.[85] -- this standalone sentence could probably be merged into the paragraph it follows.
  • Billboard reviewed the single, -- Billboard should be in italics
  • Hoffs contributed vocals to "One Voice", the end credits song for the film A Dog Named Gucci (2016), a track also featuring Norah Jones, Aimee Mann, Lydia Loveless, Neko Case, Brian May and Kathryn Calder. "One Voice" was released on Record Store Day, April 16, 2016, with profits from the sale of the single going to benefit animal charities.[98] -- this can also be merged into the paragraph before it, since it is two sentence long.
  • Hoffs cowrote songs for the Go-Go's -- co-wrote songs for the Go-Go's (only because you used "co-written" with a hyphen in a previous instance)
  • about the book included Mark Weingarten in the Los Angeles Times, -- including Mark Weingarten
  • character he'd created -- needs to be written in full he had created
  • Fleetwood Mac, Carly Simon, Rod Stewart and others. -- I think it's better to state it as Fleetwood Mac, Carly Simon, Rod Stewart, among others
  • For some time her main instrument was a borrowed Fender Telecaster -- comma after For some time
  • wrote a paean -- I would link paean for those who may be unfamiliar.

That should be everything from me. Great work on the article. Pseud 14 (talk) 01:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Pseud 14. Let me know if anything else is required. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:45, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for addressing the comments. Changes look good. Support on prose. Pseud 14 (talk) 21:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source and image review

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File:Hoffs-2006.jpg has a weird EXIF - was it cropped from another file? Image placement and ALT seem OK to me. Is AllMusic a reliable source? The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles can probably be linked. "Film: Susanna Hoffs Stars In 'Allnighter' by Her Mother" and "Mazzy Star: Shining Brightly" does it lack an online version? What is #23, #56, #77 and #95? I think in #31 "Forward" should be in italics. Is "Chris Hunt" a prominent interviewer? What makes ultimateclassicrock.com, Earwolf, RockCellar, Magnet Magazine, Vintage Guitar, Red Roses and Petrol and Stereogum a reliable source? #94 should probably not have Publicity.vanguardrecords.com as the name. #144 is there no better source than an Imgur image? What is #155? #164 is a search link, not really a good source for anything. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hoffs-2006.jpg -Appears to be a different version of File:Susanna_Hoffs_2006.jpg, which was uploaded in 2017 by the same user; the 2017 data has further structured data available. I'm not sure whether I need to do anything here.
  • AllMusic - I've replaced the instances where this site was used for biographical details. It's now only used for attributed reviews and uncontroversial info such as releases. (WP:ALLMUSIC refers)
  • The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles - link added.
  • "Film: Susanna Hoffs Stars In 'Allnighter' by Her Mother" - I only have access via the Wikipedia Library, which I don't think is a helpful link for the majority of readers.
  • "Mazzy Star: Shining Brightly" - added link to a clipping of the relevant page.
  • 23 - I added "Official website for Stony Island movie" as the website. It's used to confirm what are I believe are uncontroversial details.
  • 55, 56 - added The Times and it's publication location.
  • 77 is from Q.
  • 95 - added the missing "American Songwriter"
  • Amended the citation for Forward from publisher to website
  • Although Chris Hunt's article is rather lacking in citations, I believe he is a suitable source. I couldn't find the original of Rage Magazine.
  • ultimateclassicrock.com - A 2023 disussion at RSN failed to attact interest. Gary Graff has written for The New York Times, Billboard, The Boston Globe, The Cleveland Plain Dealer, and the San Francisco Chronicle so seems a suitable authority.
  • Earwolf - I'm not sure this is a suitable source. As I couldn't find info about her unreleased collaboration with Mark Linkous in other suitable sources, I removed it. The contribution to the Talking Heads album seems to have been as one of several backing vocalists on a single track, so I also removed that as not very significant.
  • RockCellar - the interview did attract at least one piece of secondary coverage. It seems to be a fairly small scale operation, but given that official sites such as those for Bryan Adams, Chicago, Jimi Hendrix and Brian May have linked to interviews, surely they find it a faithful source.
  • Magnet - established as a print magazine in 1993. I don't have info about it's editorial team beyond the editor's name; there's a 2014 article in The Philadelphia Inquirer about it, though.
  • Vintage Guitar - has been published as a print magazine under that name since 1989. It has editorial oversight (see [2])
  • ''Red Roses and Petrol - is the official website for the movie, used to confirm what are I believe uncontroversial details.
  • Stereogum - has been running since 2002 and has editorial oversight (see [3])
  • 144 ARIA charts - removed; I don't think this was particularly valuable info for readers.
  • 155 - it's Sight & Sound - I added a link.
  • 164 - Sorry, I'd missed that, somehow. Swapped for an MTV source.
Sorry it has taken so long, Jo-Jo Eumerus. I've responded above. Let me know if I need to take any further action. Thank you. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:04, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing else needed, although I'll qualify that this is a field where I don't have much expertise. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

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This has been open for 9 weeks and is at a standstill, lacking support for promotion. If that doesn't change in the next few days, it's liable to be archived. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 23:00, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Moisejp

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Hi, I just saw this. I'll review it. I'm a Hoffs mini-fan, including enjoying her novel and her covers recordings with Matthew Sweet, as well as being a very casual fan of the Bangles' work in general. I'm happy to see this nomination here. I'll try to start the review within the next day. Moisejp (talk) 14:47, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding comments as I go along:

  • In the paragraph about When You're a Boy, I was surprised to see "one upbeat assessment" (Globe and Mail review) then two negative reviews, then another positive review, then more negative reviews. Moisejp (talk) 07:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I finished my first read-through (making some small edits along the way) and am expecting to support. I'll do another read-through hopefully in the next couple of days. Moisejp (talk) 07:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to finish this review this weekend. Moisejp (talk) 04:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • The lead says, "Following tensions and resentment of Hoffs's perceived leadership, the band split in 1989" (suggesting that was the only or main reason) but in the main text several reasons are given for their break-up. Moisejp (talk) 23:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unrelated to my comment above but the following feels slightly out of place to me, and I might consider removing it if it was me. But if you disagree and prefer to keep it, no worries: Larkin wrote: "The Bangles folded in 1989 partly because Susanna Hoffs was being touted as the 'star' in a previously egalitarian band. It is ironic, therefore, that her solo career failed to come close to the success enjoyed by her old band." Moisejp (talk) 23:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I enjoyed this article and think it is well written. I was especially surprised to find out she sang on "Wild Wild Life" (the regular single studio version we all know and love?). If you address my five comments above I'm pretty sure I'll be ready to support promotion. Thanks! Moisejp (talk) 23:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review and edits. I was also dubious about her singing on "Wild Wild Life", but she is listed as doing that at the AFI Catalog - I didn't use that as the source because its not easily citable because of collapsed pages. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:21, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Moisejp: I've replied above. Please let me know if anything else is required. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:23, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your changes look good. I'm happy to support now. Cheers, Moisejp (talk) 05:56, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Binksternet

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I'm not seeing exceptional prose here, just facts delivered in a clunky fashion. I would not vote to promote. Binksternet (talk) 21:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Noted. Thanks for taking the time to review, Binksternet. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:52, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

100cellsman

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Oppose. This article fails on summary. It feels both very short and very long at the same time. It's nice there's a section on her equipment, but I wondered what some aspects of her artistry were. I see stated influences here and there, and that's another issue I have. This article could also really benefit having her discography spun off in it's own article. 웃OO 03:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review, 100cellsman. Have you got some examples you could share of articles that better cover these aspects of their subject?. I guess you also think that the filmography should be split off, is that correct? Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have my own work Jamiroquai, other recently promoted examples I could find are Regine Velasquez, Pierre Boulez, Neutral Milk Hotel, Meghan Trainor and Leah LaBelle. Her filmography doesn't look too big to me, so maybe no need to split. 웃OO 19:12, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Butting in (hi all), I would prefer always that substantial discographies / filmographies are spun out, but its certainly not something that would warrant an oppose at FAC. Ceoil (talk) 11:27, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My oppose is still standing for the lack of summary, mostly lack of subheaders that make the article appear very long at a glance and there isn't a place for her artistry or influences. I gave the nominator some promoted FAs to look at for reference. 웃OO 15:17, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IMO this objection is vague, badly articulated and not actionable. Ceoil (talk) 15:19, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil

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Placeholder....I think Mosie's review has lead to a good improvement in the prose, but there are some issues yet. Leaning support but would like some time to run through. Ceoil (talk) 11:34, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Don't think acting in her mother's films is worthy of the first sentence in the lead's second paragraph...ie would cut Hoffs appeared in the films Stony Island (1978) and The Haircut (1982), both written by her mother, Tamar Simon Hoffs. She starred in the comedy movie The Allnighter (1987), directed by her mother. This seems to diminish her musical achievements. Ceoil (talk) 11:52, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with the above that the filmography sect should be spun out; its long and takes up a lot of space, but unsubstantial.
  • Similarly, the lead seems lobsided as to why she is actually notable; and gives too much space to later albums, acting, and cover versions...none of which would be reasons for a keep on notability in an adf if she had not been in the Bangles. I would trim this severly, and focus more on her career before the band broke on MTV...they were HUGE in the UK music press as jangle pop darlings and that to me is more notable. Ceoil (talk) 16:42, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Benny, how is this going? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:18, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gog the Mild I've made some notes after re-reading MOS:LEAD, and should have something in the next day or two. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:06, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ceoil I've taken out the films from the lead, and expanded on the Bangles section. Please let me know if you have any further advice about what to include/exclude. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reading through again. I'm still not happy that the article presents her as an instant pop star and later legacy artist, whereas in reality she came up through the Paisley Underground, had a brief moment of fame and retreated again to the underground where she remains highly respected. The article doesn't mention the tie to Opal or the influence of Love or Big Star! Trying to place my finger on how to structure and fit in so that this becomes clear. Also, the equipment section seems to be confused in places as to tense...ie had/has. It does seem close to FAC standard, so hang on for actionable suggestions please. Ceoil (talk) 23:39, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Airship

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As always, these are suggestions, not demands; feel free to refuse with justifications.

  • The only part of 100cellsman's oppose I agree with is that the "Solo career" and "The Bangles" sections could use level-3 subsection headers, otherwise we have (in my opinion) too many paragraphs of uninterrupted prose. Dulls the eye, you know?
    • By contrast, the short "Early career" section doesn't need any subheaders (MOS:OVERSECTION).
    • It is also odd that "The Bangs" is not part of the Bangles section. I would suggest the following layout: putting the "The Unconscious" subsection (without header) into "Early life", and having ==The Bangles==, ===The Bangs: first releases and name change===, ===Critical and commercial success===, ===Disbandment and aftermath===.
  • I would however disagree that the discography/filmography needs to be spun out. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:50, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC

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Lead
  • "including resentment Hoffs's" ->'at' or 'of' before Hoff's
  • "comedy movie" -> "comedy film" (movie to too slangy)
  • "songs for movies" -> ditto
Early life
  • "Maryland—he marched": jars a little bit. Slightly smoother as "Maryland who marched", but your call
Bangles
  • "since the Different Light;" – either drop "the" or add 'album' after
  • Sort of agreeing with the previous comments about maybe sub-dividing this, (1982-1989, then 199? to 2011 would be a possible one)
Matthew Sweet
  • "Pretenders" should be "the Pretenders", particularly as it's following 'the Smiths'
refs
  • FN38 p -> pp
  • FN73 "p. c08" -> "p. C08" (consistency with others)
  • Support. In terms of the above oppose, I've seen disc, biblio and filmographies both included and excluded from biographies, and there's no set rule for it, except what works best in that specific article, and in this article, I don't see the need for it. I would suggest the sub-division of the longer sections, which I think would be an improvement, but, again, this isn't the basis for an oppose in my book. - SchroCat (talk) 11:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Edwininlondon

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My comments on prose:

  • "US top-ten charting" + "the Top-40 hit" + "a US top 10 hit" + "the Billboard Top 40 single" seems to lack consistency
  • at the King David Hotel --> may I suggest to add "in Jerusalem"?
  • Hoffs learned ballet ... school, learning --> perhaps avoid repetition of learn by replacing learned ballet with something like "took ballet classes"
  • co-written by Hoffs's mother --> co-written by her mother
  • but in a 2012 interview Hoffs said --> but in a 2012 interview she said
  • Meanwhile, Hoffs played a --> that's 3 times meanwhile in short succession. Perhaps reword
  • reached number one in the US in December 1986 --> what is missing here, and for Manic Monday as weel, is a global view. They did well in other countries as well
  • What you have is good, although my link above is not for Newspapers.com, it's for various music-chart sites including this one [[5]]. If you decide what you already have is representative enough, that's fine, or if you want to add more, you can find a bunch of sourced chart positions at Manic_Monday#Charts (my link above). Moisejp (talk) 00:28, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • writing that Hoffs's "dark eyes, dangerous pout and fancifully sexy costumes match her sultry voice" were reminiscent of the Fleetwood Mac singer --> not sure this is gramatically correct: maybe if you drop "match her sultry voice"
  • (which also charted in the UK at number 44) --> why parentheses?
  • it reached number 56 in the UK album charts and number 83 in the US album charts --> now the UK comes first. This is inconsistent with earlier approach.
  • its AOR clichés --> what is AOR?

Otherwise, I have no problem with the structure of the article. I don't think the tables at the end are too long. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:05, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Edwininlondon. Hopefully I've addressed your points, but let me know if anything else is required. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just the Nicks comparison. Otherwise all looks good to me.Edwininlondon (talk) 09:02, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes. I've had another crack at it, Edwininlondon. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:28, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All right. I Support this nomination on prose. Nice work. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

John

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Nice and well-written article. I'm tending towards supporting but I have a few questions and suggestions to make.

  • The second paragraph in the Personal life section isn't about her Personal life at all. This could be split into another section but it would leave the section very short. Is this really all we know of her non-professional life as an adult? More to come... John (talk) 18:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, John. I added a little about Hoffs's relationships. I couldn't find anything else relevant. I take your point about that second para, but I don't have a good idea about how to handle it. I thought about retitling the section to something like "Personal life and influence" but that didn't feel right. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • About the short Legacy section, ideas for beefing it up a bit, could you look for sources that may describe Bangles songs she co-wrote, like "Walk Like An Egyptian" or "Eternal Flame", as important songs of the 1980s, or the Bangles as an important or influential band of its era? If it was me I would look in Newspapers.com and/or NewspaperArchive, which you should be able to access here [[6]] and you can filter by year to look at more recent sources. Hopefully there won't be an overwhelming number of hits. I will be too busy in the next week to help you, but if this nomination is still open early next week, I may have time to jump in and assist looking. Moisejp (talk) 18:01, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A while back I had problems accessing Newspapers.com, but when I purged my cookies it worked again, which someone had suggested here [[7]]. Yeah, Newspapers.com does seem to be working for me even now. Try emptying your cache of cookies and logging in again. Let me know if it works. Moisejp (talk) 19:00, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moisejp I haven't had much joy with Newspapers.com, even with downloading a new browser. (I can see my own clippings, and get to previews, which is better than nothing.) I managed to get some decent sources via other WikiLibrary sources and my access to The Times Digital Archive. I've added to the legacy section, but didn't find much about The Bangles, or anything about Hoffs specifically, being influential. I've added in a couple of recognitions, even though these aren't really top tier. Apparently the Bangles have been eligible for the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame since 2007, but haven't yet made it. See what you think about the additions. Thanks, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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