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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tala tank/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 14 October 2021 [1].

Tala tank

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Nominator(s):  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  07:36, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the century old, world's largest overhead water reservoir, built by the British in Kolkata. Also, it is my first WP:4 attempt.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  07:36, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions by Chidgk1

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  • If water just flows one way first paragraph could be written something like:

"The Tala tank, or Tallah tank, (Bengali pronunciation: [ˈʈala tæŋk]), is a water tower in Kolkata, West Bengal, India. Construction started in 1909 and the tower was inaugurated by the Lieutenant Governor of Bengal in May 1911. Owned by Kolkata Municipal Corporation (KMC) the tank is fed by Palta Water Works near Barrackpore. More than 110 years after construction the tower is the world's largest overhead water reservoir, and remains the major water supplier for the city of Kolkata."

"The Tala tank covers 3–4 acres ......"

  • Use either imperial or metric first - at the moment sometimes one is first and sometimes the other (also tonnes is already metric)
  • Security against terrorists? Maybe that is secret so you cannot write.
  • I am not an engineer but I am curious why they did not fill all the tanks completely before the cyclone arrived - maybe because repairs had not been finished?
  • Future? For example is it big and high enough to help balance electricity supply and demand - by running the pumps at certain times?
great so when you have finished your exams (good luck) see if you can find a source and write a sentence or 2 Chidgk1 (talk) 05:41, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sure  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  06:06, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bonus - Improve it on Openstreetmap (just shows as "building" now) and add the Wikidata identifier there -if you don't know how to do that please ask

Additionally, if you found these comments useful, please add a comment or 2 here Chidgk1 (talk) 14:00, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Chidgk1: Sadly, unable to click a picture. Not getting time to visit the tank. One of my friend used to live there but he shifted to other place recently. Regarding future, couldnt find any repot or study on future of the tank.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  13:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is there anything else I should change to win your support?  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  13:46, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ArnabSaha: Thanks very much to you and Seloloving for adding the excellent side diagram - and the measurements in feet are a nice bonus to get people wondering about the past. The article is very close to getting my support. All I want now is a simple diagram from the top. If I understand the text right this would just be the big square of the tank divided into 4 small squares. Or perhaps there are 4 small squares within a big square as perhaps the outer wall is not a tank wall? No need for subtank measurements if they are not easily available. The benefit of this is that the reader can instantly understand this subtank feature without having to read deep into the article. As I guess the subtank feature is very important to keep the water supply going if one of the 4 needs major repair? If that can be done I will support . Chidgk1 (talk) 06:38, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Could "which is characterised as the world's largest overhead water reservoir" be either "which is the world's largest overhead water reservoir" or "which is claimed to be the world's largest overhead water reservoir" depending how good you think the source is? Chidgk1 (talk) 07:06, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Chidgk1 Both done  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  08:39, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support Excellent work Chidgk1 (talk) 09:00, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  09:31, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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Image licensing is fine. Hog Farm Talk 14:36, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

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While this has attracted some general comments and passed the important image review the nomination has been open for nearly three weeks and is showing little sign of gaining a consensus to support. Unless there is a significant change in this over the next three or four days, I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:46, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coming up to four weeks and still not much in the way of a consensus to promote. This nomination needs to attract more attention in the next day or two or it will be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:26, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please could you leave it a little while more as I am very close to supporting Chidgk1 (talk) 06:39, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Now supporting - could other commentators support or oppose Chidgk1 (talk) 09:02, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski

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I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.

As I did the GA review, I'm pretty happy with this one, but here's a couple points still in the way of a support

Lede
Prose
Additional comments

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:05, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Lee Vilenski:: I have tried to solve the issues you mentioned. Please check  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  21:34, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Nikkimaria

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- spotchecks not done. Version reviewed

  • @Nikkimaria: Authors are from a notable institute, the journal has sources and IRJET is UGC approved. That's what I found. I have added location for news sources and publisher for all sources.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  05:58, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • But that isn't the case for all sources. For example, FN36 has no publisher. (It's not mandatory for newspapers to include publishers - I'd actually suggest simplifying the citations instead - but if you're going to do it it needs to be done consistently). Nikkimaria (talk) 00:23, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Corrected. Publisher for all citations and Location for news related ones. I have wikilinked the names wherever used first, like first Kolkata, first KMC etc. @Nikkimaria:  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  05:33, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harry

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  • What does the Titanic have to do with anything? That seems like an odd thing to mention, especially in the lead. Lots of objects were built with steel.
  • Before pumped water supply to Kolkata began in 1820, [...] in the early eighteenth century Redundancy
  • Suggest putting footnote a in the body; the reader is likely to ask, as I did, "what's Lal Dighi?" ie is it a lake, a river, a man-made reservoir, or something else?
  • Second paragraph of the history section could do with being split for readability.
  • Arthur Peirce, devised what became Tala tank in 1901. The Chief Engineer of KMC, W. B. MacCabe, designed the tank in 1902 I'm not sure I follow? Was it designed by Peirce or MacCabe? In 1901 or 1902?
  • Consider the likely notability of some of your red links. A major body of water and a city square are likely to be notable enough at least for a few paragraphs of history. Could the same be said for Babu Khelat Ghosh?
  • Tala tank also endured bomb scares during the India-Pakistan Wars of 1947–1948 and 1965 Is there anything more to say
  • one of the strongest storms to impact the area ever? Recently? That year?
  • Put refs in order, eg [22][23][9], [14][5] under "threats"
  • Up to 2020, the reservoir developed only fourteen leaks. "only" is arguably editorialising—how many leaks would it be expected to develop? Also, when were the leaks and how serious were they? What repairs were carried out? What impact did the leaks have? Any flooding or loss of water supply?
    • Done Removed "only". and they weren't serious to disrupt the city water supply. Renovations are carried out as a whole. Thats mentioned in the next para.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  15:07, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • and steel of the same that was used in RMS Titanic As with the lead, I don't see the relevance of the Titanic.
  • No need to be so precise with measurements, eg (6.1–7.6 m) logs.[6] The 288–295 88.5 ft (27.0 m). You can use a parameter like |0 to round to significant figure.
  • And you can use |adj=on in the convert template where the measurement is an adjective (eg 20–25 ft (6.1–7.6 m) logs)
  • The tank is unique; it acts as a balancer,[6] having a single 60 in (150 cm) diameter mild steel water source and a supply pipe that fills the tank during off-peak hours and stores water in four equally sized, isolated chambers and supplies it to the city and other major underground reservoirs according to demand. This sentence seems unnecessarily long and complicated. I'm not sure what exactly is unique. Suggest breaking the sentence up for readability.
  • What's the relevance of the first two links in the see also?
  • You should give the names of publishers/publications, not just web addresses.
  • What makes Incredible India a high-quality reliable source?
  • I'm concerned that the article is sourced largely to various Indian news outlets (I don't know what the reliability is of these), local government, and a few foreign sources like the ICE blog. Two books are cited but neither appears to contain a detailed study of the Tala tank. In fact, one doesn't mention it at all and appears to be a business studies textbook. In the UK, I would normally expect to see such an impressive piece of engineering covered in more books and academic sources. I'm not used to writing about India, but I have reservations about the depth and breadth of research. For example, in about five minutes of Googling, I found that there had been several (unfounded) rumours that the tank had been poisoned during periods of religious/sectarian violence.
    • Almost all the sources are from popular Indian news outlets. Indian topics lack sources, studies and data. Its very hard to find one. I couldnt even find a architectural plan of the tank. Regarding the poison thing, I didnt add it, since its a rumour and lack of highly reliable sources.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  21:02, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is an interesting and well-put-together article on an interesting feat of engineering. You've done a good job but I need convincing that it has the depth of a featured article. I have concerns over criterion 1a (well written) but those are relatively easy to address; I'm more concerned about 1b and 1c. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:20, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@HJ Mitchell: I have tried to address all of your points. Kindly check  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  15:48, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi HJ Mitchell, how's this one going? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:09, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I still have concerns, I'm afraid. I'm not sure if I should outright oppose, but I can't support at the moment. I have a few fairly minor concerns, like formatting of references and the use of a government tourist website as a source, which I could overlook or fix myself. But the omission of the poisoning rumours and the context of ethno-religious conflict during the partition makes the article incomplete in my opinion, especially as I was able to find it with relative ease in multiple books on Google Books, and I don't think the depth and breadth of sourcing is up to FA standards. The article relies too much on news articles and websites in my opinion, and not enough on books and scholarly sources.​ HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:48, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Although I have already supported I tend to agree with HJ that there should be some mention of security. I don't know whether poisoning rumours should be mentioned but I think that publically available info on security should be included - http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/cisf-guards-at-tala-palta-tanks-soon/748759/ mentions security from 2 different organisations. Were the number of entry points reduced? @ArnabSaha: you mentioned there is some publically available info you can cite - I am guessing maybe nowadays the first line of security is provided by the operators of the tank? Also any info on how often the water flowing out of the tank is tested would be good - if available? Chidgk1 (talk) 09:26, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Currently working on this. Will try to complete in couple of hours  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  09:32, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Chidgk1:, security was provided only for sometime, during the political tension between the 2 political parties. It wasnt permanent. neither any security is provided now nor water is tested from the tank, for poison. Normal water is tests are carried out in source (Palta) and other various parts of the network, which is irrelevant for the article.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  11:15, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Added poison to the tank  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  19:06, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drive by comment

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Note "the South Asian numbering system is conventionally used for certain things (especially monetary amounts) in South Asian English. This is discouraged in Wikipedia articles"
And "When it is done anyway, for contextually important reasons, link the first spelled-out instance of each quantity (e.g. crore, which yields: crore). If no instances are spelled out, provide a note after the first instance, directing the reader to the article about the numbering system."
And "Provide a conversion to Western numbers for the first instance of each quantity (the templates {{lakh}}, {{crore}}, and {{lakh crore}} may be used for this purpose), and provide conversions for subsequent instance"
  • What are the "contextually important reasons" for the use of the South Asian numbering system in this article?
  • If it is to be used, have you "Provide[d] a conversion to Western numbers for the first instance of each quantity ... and provide[d] conversions for subsequent instance[s]" etc?
Gog the Mild (talk) 12:46, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild, Done Changed to million/billion  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  14:40, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning Oppose from Kavyansh.Singh, suggesting to withdraw

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  • Great work has been done on this article, but I have to agree with HJ Mitchell. My most major concern with this article is its comprehensiveness. Following are few source which I found by a quick Google Scholar search. They are very informative, and seem to cover various other things which the article does not.
    • Dey, Ayanangshu (April 8, 2021). "Challenges of retrofitting the world's biggest elevated water reservoir: Tala tank of Calcutta". Engineering History and Heritage. Institution of Civil Engineers. doi:10.1680/jenhh.20.00019. eISSN 1757-9449. ISSN 1757-9430.
    • Pal, Amitava; Bandyopadhyay, Aloke Kumar; Patra, Parthajit; Dey, Ayanangshu (October 1, 2019). "Refreshing Kolkata's 110-year-old, record-breaking elevated water reservoir". Civil Engineering. 172 (4). Institution of Civil Engineers. doi:10.1680/jcien.18.00040. eISSN 1751-7672. ISSN 0965-089X.
  • The above two source have various architectural plans of the tank, including "Details of a single bottom plate", "Details of column supporting the new ceiling with a strengthened base", "Diagram of the Palta–Tala water supply system showing numbers and diameters of pipes and how they connect the tank and reservoirs to the local distribution network", etc. Quoting a paragraph from the first source:

The tank was actually supported by a system of columns arranged in both longitudinal and transverse directions (Figure 6). Each system of column support was composed of four squarely placed columns, of equal sizes, to support any particular and corresponding portion of the tank above this frame. Initially, it was decided to strengthen the foundation by breaking and exposing the footings to its reinforcement. However, as footings were found to be more prone to cracks and not all were affected equally, the plan was later revised. Only the damaged ones were exposed and epoxy was used to bind old concrete with new. As the flooring was observed to be damaged and broken at several places (Figure 7), a 300 mm thick solid, reinforced concrete slab was also cast to raise the foundation and make it even and consistent.

  • Above quote in an example of an important detail which the "Structure" section of the article does not discuss. Aloke Kumar Bandyopadhyay, one of the author of second source has been mentioned as former Director General of the Kolkata Municipal Corporation. I am not confident that the article is complete, and feel that it needs some more academic sources like books and journals. That being said, I am open for reconsideration if the issues are resolved. Feel free to ping me if you need any help. Thanks for your work! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 13:41, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

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It is clear that there is not a consensus to promote, so I am archiving this nomination. The usual two week pause will apply. I recommend that the nominator takes on board the helpful comments by all of the reviewers above with a view to resubmitting.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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