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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Troika (1969 film)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 21 May 2024 [1].

Troika (1969 film)

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Nominator(s): Paleface Jack (talk) 17:25, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The debut feature film by avant-garde artist-turned-filmmaker Fredric Hobbs. Troika marked the start of a short but colorful career for Hobbs and the acting debut of Golden State Warriors Hall of Fame Nate Thurmond, briefly released in 1969 and given subsequent airings on television, it became largely forgotten for decades. Its rediscovery and short screening in 2022 helped gain the film minor recognition for its portrayal of ideas and attitudes popular in the 1960s. After working on finding only the best and most reliable sources, passing Good Article status in 2023 and a Peer review in 2024, I believe this article meets the standards of Featured status. I look forward to hearing any comments and criticisms on this this current effort I put in.Paleface Jack (talk) 17:25, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your efforts on the Troika are commendable. It makes me also interested in watching this movie. Mcx8202229 (talk) 04:51, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would be difficult, considering it has never gotten a release on home media and the copy of the film is under lock and key at the University.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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  • "the director Hobbs attempting to gain financing for a film of the same name" - same name as what? Himself?
The film was named Troika. I changed it to make it appear less confusing.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Troika was first conceived by Hobbs after working" => "Troika was first conceived by Hobbs after he worked"
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Functioning as an "expressionist documentary" of student demonstrations within the late 1960s. " - this isn't a complete sentence
Did a minor revision.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Within the classroom, students covered in white face paint recline upon toilet seats and chaise longues in place of chairs, various college professors present their lessons to the students, who view the presentations with downcast emotions." - this also isn't a complete sentence. I think you need "while", "and", or similar before "various"
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a procession of the title "Blue People"" => "a procession of the titular "Blue People""
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "ends with a shot of Rax as it merges with the Three Thieves" - what's "it"? Rax? Earlier you referred to Rax as "he"
My bad, changed to "He".--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "each segment for the film as a series of increasingly bizarre shorts" - should that last word be "shots"?
Shorts is accurate, he was talking about the film structure rather than the narrative of each segement.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So each segment of the film is itself a series of shorts? That's how it currently reads...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:57, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest changing it to "the segments of the film as a series of increasingly bizarre shorts" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I redid the sentence to clarify that is was the narrative structure and not each segment.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hobbs, also starred in the film" - no need for that comma there
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as one commentator described his role as a Christ-like figure" - no need for the word "as"
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Gordon Mueller in addition to his duties as the film's editor, stepping in " => "Gordon Mueller, in addition to his duties as the film's editor, stepping in "
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Art Institute photo caption needs a full stop
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "began firing a Nike missile's" - no reason for the 's at the end there
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the paragraph beginning "while the film's visuals", quotes from critics swap between being in single quote marks and double quote marks
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hobbs' continued to work" - no reason for apostrophe on his name
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Both films were critical and commercial failures,[39][41] combined with behind-the-scenes conflicts with producers of both films caused Hobbs to grow discontent with the film industry, who subsequently retired from filmmaking" - there's some words missing here. I would suggest changing it to "Both films were critical and commercial failures,[39][41] and this, combined with behind-the-scenes conflicts with the producers of both films, caused Hobbs to grow discontent with the film industry, and he subsequently retired from filmmaking"
Did a little rewording.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Date formats in the refs are inconsistent. Within the same ref I can see "October 12, 2022" and "2022-10-12"
Interesting. I think another editor did that cause I never really use that date format. The format is fitting with my style and more consistant.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did edits on it and the format remains the same. Not sure what is causing this. Paleface Jack (talk) 21:25, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed it by removing a parameter from the {{use mdy dates}} hidden template -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Odd how these hidden parameters are set up to irritate me. Thanks for the fix.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Gog the Mild

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Recusing to review.

I have done some light copy editing while reading. If I have messed anything up, could we discuss it here.

  • "utilizing various sets in and around California." A "set" is artificially constructed scenery, so I don't see how this squares with "The film was shot on location".
Reworded to "The film was shot in early to mid-1969, utilizing various locations in and around California."--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The film's score was composed in collaboration with Hobbs and editor/co-director Gordon Mueller" doesn't really work grammatically. Perhaps 'The film's score was composed in a collaboration between Hobbs and editor/co-director Gordon Mueller'?
Reworded to "The film's score was composed as a collaborative effort between Hobbs and editor/co-director Gordon Mueller". Might do minor tinkering if this is not up to snuff.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Troika initially had a preview screening on October 12". Does "initially" add anything?
Other than serving as a screening prior to the official premiere, no. Removing it.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with select reviews being mixed to positive." What was "select" about the reviews?
changed to "existing".--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The film has currently not been released on home video, with Hobbs being unsatisfied with the current print of the film, refusing to grant distribution rights up to his death in 2018" seems a little clumsy. If Hobbs' dissatisfaction with the current print is the reason why it was not released on home video, say so.
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with Hobbs being unsatisfied with the current print of the film". "current print" suggests that there are other prints; is this so?
Redid to existing print, as he was not satisfied with the quality that he was in ownership of (the only one we know of).--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "refusing to grant distribution rights up to his death in 2018". Ok, so why has it not been release since 2018?
That I have not figured out. Since that one festival screening, all news on the film has mysteriously stopped.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest deleting "Note". (Just the single word, not the actual note.)
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to be rebuffed and insulted by the producer." Who is "the producer"?
Goodloins. Changed it to make that more obvious.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Removed italics.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "crafting an alchemical brew in a large vat". Really a vat, which is a type of barrel, or a cauldron?
Existing plot synopsis' call it a vat.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A seemingly crazed Chef ... as the Chef uses pieces of it ..." Why the upper-case Cs?
Character name, lower cased it now.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Still not satisfied with ..." Why "Still? There is no mention of any earlier or initial dissatisfaction.
Removed.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "covered in similar ritualistically painted symbols". Similar to what? This is the first mention of ritualistic symbols.
Changed to Ritualistic face paint.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "they both dance to a tango". Either 'they dance a tango together' or 'they both dance to a tango tune.
The synopsis found in the book by Stephen Thrower states "the chef then dances a tango with a heavily painted woman".--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a short while". Delete "short". Unless you wish to argue that a long while exists.
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Section title: why "Alma Mater"?
Plot synopsis lists this as the title accourding to sources.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "present their lessons". Suggest 'present their lectures'.
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "who view the presentations with downcast emotions". Are there any visual or other indications that their emotions were downcast? If so, what are they? If not, how do we know?
Plot synopsis is vague: "The sequence cotains footage shot at a student sit-in, taken both inside the college abid tired or downcast students". I changed the sentance a little differently for flow--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the frustrated students boo their dunce-capped teacher". Why "their"? Were the other five not "their" teachers as well?
Another vague portion of the plot synopsis I had to use to contruct everything on: "The surrealistic classroom.. is populated by students with thickly painted Caligari-esque faces who eventually boo the dunce-capped teacher out of class."--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by a feral Warrior". Why the upper-case W? What makes or indicates that they are "feral"?
Plot synopsis just lists them as a "Savage". I changed it a but with lower case to fit that description.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "pushing a large sculpture with her". Delete "with her"; if she is pushing it you have established that it is "with her".
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Attenuated Man". Guess?
Listed name for the character in the end credits so Caps seems more appropriate here.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "induces a vision of three thieves (a sculpture depicting three corpse-like beings) who emerge from the ceiling of the cave." So is it three thieves who emerge" or 'a sculpture of three thieves which emerges. How is it known they are thieves?
The sculpture was a piece by Hobbs named the "Three Thieves" and is listed as such in the synopsis. I changed it a little so that title is not present there so to not confuse the reader.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the titular "Blue People". You have not mentioned any titles.
Changed that a bit cause the segment is titled "Blue People", yet "Titular" upsets the flow.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I dont remember the exact reason why that is quoted. I removed the quotes anyways.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "populated by Blue and Purple people" ...
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "same train he departed from at the beginning". As at the beginning he arrived this is a little confusing. Perhaps 'same train he disembarked from at the beginning'?
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Three Thieves". The upper-case issue again, plus inconsistency.
Changed from earlier critisism.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a Bachelor of Arts in History." Why the upper-case initial letters?
Apologies. Was trying to avoid unnecessary redirects so I left it as such, as with most of those unnecessary capitals. The official title of the degree is in caps. I removed the degree he got from the article as it seems unnecessary--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After serving as a United States Air Force Officer in the Korean War". Why the upper-case O?
Fixed.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "throughout the late 1950s and early 1960s". He graduated in 1953, so unless he produced acclaimed work prior to this "throughout" is inaccurate.
Changed "throughout" to "in".--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a series of acclaimed art pieces ... an art piece of the same name". Could you be more specific? Were the art pieces oil paintings, sculpture, performance pieces, a mixture?
Changed to paintings and sculptures.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry, but I am going to oppose, the prose is not up to FAC standard - criterion 1 a - nor MoS compliant - criterion 2. I was hoping that things would improve once I was past the plot, but they haven't, and reading ahead they don't. I suggest withdrawal to either give it a thorough copy edit or to put it through GoCER. I hope that the comments above give an idea of where I feel that improvement is needed. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:05, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will keep it in the review and make the fixes accordingly. For character names in the casting section, I placed them in quotations as the film credits them as such. In terms of character names or capitalized names, Blue People and others are always capitalized in all the sources I have, which is why it's better to keep it that way as it is the character's name title.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Take 2
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  • "a recent sculpture of the same name". By Hobbs?
Modified for clarity.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he began to develop the film into", "the film" being "Trojan Horse"?
rewote to "Hobbs became fascinated with film as an art form and began to develop the concept for Troika," to clarify he was going off on his own to make a movie.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with its name taken from the Russian word for a set of three, referencing the three overlapping stories." The lead is a summary of the main article, could you point out where this information is in the main article?
It is mentioned in the release section.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hobbs has expressed dissatisfied". Is not grammatical.
Changed--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • " It has currently not been released on home video, as Hobbs has expressed dissatisfied with the print and refused distribution rights." This implies that Hobbs is still alive and is still is still refusing distribution rights. Why has it not been distributed during the past six years?
I have no idea why it has not been released. It seemed there was a huge build up for that possibility but after the festival screening there has been no new mention of the film anywhere.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are there citations in the infobox. Are these items not covered in the main article?
The citations on the cinematographer are not.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is cite 3 on a new line?
Removed the citation as it was in the body.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:00, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "with the main story centering around an artist–Fredric Hobbs portraying a fictional version of himself– as he attempts to convince". This uses en dashes - the first unspaced and the second partially spaced. See "Punctuating a sentence" in MOS:DASH for correct usage.
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In a series of increasingly desperate encounters with Goodloins, Hobbs tries to pitch the idea for the film". Are these the opening scenes of the film? If so, say so.
revised this.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "also covered in ritualistic face paint." "covered" suggests all over; "face paint" suggests just her face. Which is the case?
Changed to "Covered in painted symbols.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "composed of four stories ... The film is structured in three segments". Does the scene with the Hobbs pitching the film count as a story, a segment, both, or neither.
    Butting in....yes was wondering about that. Ceoil (talk) 05:33, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From all my sources (Only two give details on the plot) it it its own sequence but is not titled or credited.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I assume that the three sub-section headers are the titles of the "three segments"? This needs making clear. Where do these titles come from? Eg, the film itself, Hobbs, a HQ RS, you?
How so?--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The current text says, breaking the fourth wall, "This plot synopsis and chapter titles are adapted from an interview of Hobbs in the non-fiction book Nightmare USA: The Untold Story of Exploitation Independents written by Stephen Thrower, and an article for the Daily News". I think the sections should be merged, its fine to separate each in the text as "what Hobbs decribes as..." or something, but they cannot be used as sect titles". Ceoil (talk) 05:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Splitting it into "Hobbs called" or "Hobbs described" for the titles instead of just having titles breaks the flow of the plot section. By keeping the titles in there it adds more flow and clarofies its structure as an Anthology for the readers. Paleface Jack (talk) 15:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the GA review they just had me do it that way. I am also going off of something similarly doe with the plot synopsis of Tetsuo: The Iron Man.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Changed the word "chapter" to "segment" in the explanatory paragraph of the plot section. Each segment title is reffered to that by Hobbs. Paleface Jack (talk) 15:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They dance to a tango". The word "to" alters the meeting here. I am just checking that you mean to convey that they dance to a tango tune, but do not perform a tango dance?
Plot synopsis only says ""The chef then dances a tango with a heavily painted woman".--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Exiting the train, a tall insect-like humanoid named Rax (Morgan Upton), who journeys into the nearby coastal hills." this is not grammatical.
Any suggestions.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... who journeys into the nearby coastal hills. Making his way there ..." Remove the repitition.
Changed to "On the road".--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dispersed throughout the segment is a procession of the blue people". Do you mean something like 'Dispersed throughout the segment are clips of a procession of the blue people'?
Yes. Changed to clarify.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a seven-foot-tall shaman known as the Attenuated Man (Nate Thurmond) ... as Rax, alongside the attenuated man" Upper-case initials or lower case? Be consistent.
Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the segment ends with a shot of Rax as he merges with the sculpture of the three beings." The segment ends or the film ends?
Film. Changed.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have got less far than I did with my first run through, and I am not sure that I have fewer issues. I want to be sympathetic to a first time nominator and I am aware of the difficulty of writing engaging prose to a professional standard. Nevertheless the article is still under-prepared for FAC and I feel that to go further would create a WP:FIXLOOP. So I am stopping here and my oppose on criteria 1 a and 2 stands. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Gog, but on the optimistic side, its a short article and the review is almost exhaustive. My main concern is that the film is very fringe -hard core art horror fans only- there are just not that many sources that describe the plot (see my note above). My preference would be to gut that section. Paleface are you up for that? Ceoil (talk) 13:41, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. The most detailed plot synopsis is found in the book Nightmare USA and that is very detailed on how theg were split into the parts, i too the liberty of removing fluff that would be too much. Additional details I got from a review, filling in some of the gaps so I think is good as it stands. I have made a lot of adjustments with a few questions to clarify some criticisms. Other than that we can either wait till those questions are answered or we can fail it. Either way I am fine.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, almost a month in this nom is still far from consensus to promote, so best we work on it outside of FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil

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I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Gog, who is usually right about such matters. Its a really great article that would love to see promoted eventually (sharing a passion for this type of cinema), but it needs polish. On prose only. Paleface you need to haggle some copy editors; suggest a GA nomination, and a peer review after. Am up for helping on both, and look forward to seeing you back here after. Ceoil (talk) 23:06, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is already GA so that would be pointless. Copy editing perhaps. Paleface Jack (talk) 00:26, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I should do more research. Can this be left open for another week and will have a go at copy-editing? As mentioned have an interest in this type of gothic. Ceoil (talk) 01:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would be willing to let that happen if you could teach me how to actually do it myself. It seems prose is my weakness.Paleface Jack (talk)

I'm down with that as the page is otherwise outstanding. Lets take it to article talk. Ceoil (talk) 19:01, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an update, there has been extensive copy editing, might ask Gog to revisit by the end of weekend if thats fine. Ceoil (talk) 21:49, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Implementing some minor fixes until then. Either you or I can get in touch with Gog on the weekend. Paleface Jack (talk) 00:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: I have done some pretty extensive copy edits to the article in the past 2 weeks and I hope these have cleared up any of the issues you have mentioned.--Paleface Jack (talk) 15:25, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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