Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2009 January 17

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January 17

Confusion and A Question....

Dear Wikipedia help desk,

I signed up for a WiKi account a few days ago, the next day it got deleted because i made a page for a company called Hopper Tours, which caused some confusion after because I see a lot of companies on wikipedia and I am NOT a Hopper Tours employee, just an anonymous person that wants to make a Wiki page to inform the public about this company, and it blocked us because it was a company and werent aloud to promote it but i wasnt promoting it,i barely wrote anything ? i dont get it....and really need help to get the hang around this cause their are so many rules to follow,and i really need the MAIN important ones, i really need help with this account.im so lost.

01:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)~~Adri —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.195.169.225 (talk)

Well, thing is, there are some guidelines to creating articles. You can't create an article on just about anything. Firstly, the subject should be notable. Then it should be verifiable using references, if possible from reliable sources. Also, the article must be written in a neutral point of view. Unnecessarily decorative phrases shouldn't be used, which will make it look like an advertisement - this has probably been the problem with your article. Cheers. Chamal ^talk 01:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Accounts aren't deleted and I doubt you'd be blocked for failing to follow some rules in writing your first entry. Just read the pages Chamal listed and try again (if the company is a suitable subject) - Mgm|^(talk) 11:06, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Mac, he could have been blocked if his username was the same name as his company, for promotional reasons. Xclamation point 16:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I can find no evidence that an article called Hopper Tours was ever created. What was the user name you were using? – ukexpat (talk) 16:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Special:Listusers leads me to believe the username was User:HopperTours, the spam page was created in userspace at User:HopperTours, not the mainspace, was created and deleted on 13th January, and the account was softblocked as a username violation at about the same time. _Gb^T/c 16:47, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

And for the sake of completeness the entire contents of the deleted page can (temporarily) be seen at User:Gb/Sandbox. A clear cut G11..._Gb^T/c 16:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Biographys

Hi, I recently had my biography up and it was deleted. This is what was said:

This page has been deleted. The deletion log for the page is provided below for reference.

• 00:47, 17 January 2009 Athaenara (Talk | contribs) deleted "Christopher Snape" ‎ (G11: blatant advertising. Created by Christopher Snape, tagged by NAHID and CyberGhostface.)
• 10:37, 15 January 2009 Fuhghettaboutit (Talk | contribs) deleted "Christopher Snape" ‎ (G11: Blatant advertising)

I dont really understand why it was deleted? It was all ture information and I dont believe that it was advertising. I have included my page. Any assistance in editiing and guidance me would be gratefully appreciated so I can get it up and running again. It also means that I have lost all my editing info....it took me ages to work out how to do this...is there any way of getting it back so I can edit what I had? My page was 'Christopher Snape'

Thanks, Chris

Below is a copy of what I had straight from the site (I am unable to get the editing info...I would love to get it back)

Text hidden to make Help Desk page reading easier

Christopher Snape (born 16 September 1982) is a fantastic example of an Australian Lighting Designer. He started his own business 'Christopher James Sound Light'n'Efex' at the age of 14, Snape rose to prominence in the early 2000s as his Lighting Designs finally starting to hit more and more Theaters across the city of Sydney. This assisted him in establishing an international lighting design career. Christopher's Lighting Designs are most commonly found under the Musical Theatre genres. His Lighting Designs are made up by a mix of classic methods for lighting theatre however he enjoys todays new technologies and loves to wow the audience with his imaginative ways in which he uses old methods of lighting with new equipment and ideas! Contents [hide]

   * 1 A Snippit of Christopher's Career
   * 2 Biography
         o 2.1 Childhood and discovery
         o 2.2 School V's Career
         o 2.3 Beyond the Australian Shores
         o 2.4 What has Chris been Involved in?
   * 3 Overall
   * 4 External links

[edit] A Snippit of Christopher's Career

To date, Christopher Snape has achieved a huge success with his lighting designs across NSW and throughout Australia. One of his lighting designs include 'A Night With Delta Goodrem' - Sony BMG - Live Concert plus DVD Shoot held in Sydney. The Urban Music Awards

In 2007 Snape Designed the Urban Music Awards, Australian and New Zealand. In this particular show he lit artist such as 'Samantha Jade', Doug Williams, PNC. It was a fantastic night had by all.

Snape in June of 2006 was yet to wow thousands after he was asked to be the Lighting Designer for Sydney's Powerhouse Museum's new Exhibition named 'Further, Faster, Higher'. An exhibition showcasing the vast years of transport objects within the museums transport gallery. This opened to the public in December 2006 and is scheduled to last until 2012.

[edit] Biography

[edit] Childhood and discovery Anthony Snape in concert

Christopher James Snape was born on 16 September 1982 in Gunnedah, New South Wales to parents Neill and Gena Snape. Snape, who showed a strong interest in electronics and lights from a very young age, attended Gunnedah High School, though due to its curriculum placing strong emphasis on sport (Snape taking part in football, swimming and soccer), Lighting Design was primarily kept separate. Christopher was the usual country child, riding bikes going camping and getting into just about everything. He began singing and playing in a band with his big brother, performing on stage in a variety of shows in a variety of different roles both at school and in armature societies.

Christopher has always been interested with electronics throughout his life but it was not until Chris was invited to control the lighting for his brothers up and coming drama assessment that things got started. Chris became hooked. "With just a few lights, you can take people from sitting in a audience to a place far beyond their imagination". From that point on Christopher made a commitment to pursue and become successful in his chosen career of 'Lighting Design'.

Christopher began to develop his knowledge of lighting, with not only learning what type of lighting fixtures there are but most importantly, how to use them correctly. He borrowed every lighting, theatre-craft, concert book that there was to find, spoke to as many professionals in the industry and made it a point to learn from everyone and every experience.

"I just kept asking people if I could light their show" and that he did. "People soon became aware of what I was trying to do so I then started getting phone calls from people I did not even know, wanting me to light their show.....and of cause I said YES!"

After a while Chris thought it would be best to develop a business name. So after a few days of brainstorming, he came up with the name 'Christopher James Sound Light'n'Efex. "I was not only designing the lighting for everyone but I was their whole production; lighting, sound, AV, set". Chris and all his equipment would get dropped off in the morning and get picked up late that night. "I started using my mums mobile phone for my business. At that time someone my age was not allowed to buy a mobile. I remember I was sitting in my maths class one day and my phone rang, so without thinking I grabbed it out of my bag and ran outside. By the time I had finished the call everyone was still in shock. I then had to explain to my maths teacher what had just happened, why and that it would never happen again (she was very good about it all). These days just-about everyone has one so its not such a big deal" U2 Cocktail Party - Pre-show

[edit] School V's Career

One of Christophers' first big Sydney shows was to help at the entertainment centre. "When I received the call, I could not believe it. I turned up with eyes wide open. A funny thing happened there actually....when we were all having a break before the show, I was talking with one of the main guys, just chatting away then somehow it came to a point where we were talking about my age. He thought I was twenty-three years old. I almost fell over as I was only fifteen!"

Christopher would try as much as possible to get to where he was going and do the work before anyone would ask him his age. "If I told anyone my age I was always stereo-typed, but if I could show them what I knew and how I worked by that stage if they found out my age they would just be surprised. If anyone asked, I would always tell them".

Throughout the next few years Christopher had to juggle his schooling with his chosen career. Traveling from Gunnedah, New South Wales and Sydney, New South Wales for weeks at a time for nothing more then experience! "What I learnt and who I met in those first few years has been worth more to me than money can buy!".

I the year 2000, Snape finally finished his schooling career and by early 2001 he had established himself firmly with the theatres and concert halls in Sydney, New South Wales and surrounding areas.

[edit] Beyond the Australian Shores

2007 saw Christopher leave the shores of Australian and fly to Bangkok, Thailand. He was asked by Lighting Designer 'Trudy Dalgleish' to be the Lighting Director in Bangkok for the show Hello Kitty. The show started its tour in Dubai, then went to Bangkok then to Hong Kong. Christopher spent 8 days there with a fantastic team around him.

Christopher was then asked in 2008 by Roger Hind from 'Theatricks Production' to be the Lighting Designer for the 'Gloria Gene's Coffees' Annual Awards. This saw him fly all the way to Dubai for ten days. "It was very hot and steamy however worth every second". Dubai

. [edit] What has Chris been Involved in?

Christopher Snape has been involved in a number of shows and events throughout his career. Some of these include:

'Pippin' Kookaburra Theatre Company - Sydney Theatre ~ Associate Lighting Designer

'Our Town' - Arts Unit - Seymour Theatre Centre ~ Lighting Designer

'Bubble' - Legs on the Wall - Sydney Opera House ~ Lighting Designer

'Melissa Tallon' Album Launch - Universal Music Australia - Sydney and Brisbane ~ Lighting Designer

'Anthony Snape' Album Launch - Independent Music Artist - National Tour ~ Lighting Designer

'Golden Slipper Ball' - Star City Casino ~ Lighting Designer

'Enough Rope' Andrew Denton - ABC Television ~ Moving Light Director Further, Faster, Higher

'Primary Choral Concert Series' - Sydney Opera House ~ Associate Lighting Designer

'Optus Gala Dinner' - Australian Business Theatre ~ Lighting Designer

'Encore' - Arts Unit - Sydney Opera House ~ Associate Lighting Designer

'Sydney Region Showcase' - City Recital Hall, Sydney ~ Associate Lighting Designer

'Writers OnStage' - Arts Unit ~ Lighting Designer

'U2 Cocktail Party' - Acer Arena, Sydney ~ Lighting Director

'Ryde School Spectacular' - Sydney Opera House ~ Associate Lighting Designer

'State Drama Festival' - Arts Unit - Seymour Theatre Centre ~ Lighting Designer Dance Festival

'Australian Young Women of the Year Awards' - Town Hall, Sydney ~ Lighting Director

'Australian Commercial Radio Awards' - Big Top, Luna Park Sydney ~ Lighting Director

'Woolworths Awards' - Australian Technology Park ~ Lighting Director

'Sydney Region Dance Festival' - Seymour Theatre Centre ~ Associate Lighting Designer

'Australian Spelling Championships; OzSpell' - Channel 7 - Lighting Designer / Director

'State Dance Festival' - Arts Unit ~ Associate Lighting Designer

'Sydney Region Drama Festival' - Department of Education and Training ~ Lighting Designer

'Burn' - Arts Unit - Pact Theatre ~ Lighting Designer

'Into The Woods' ~ Lighting Designer

Snape has also been involved with the 'Schools Spectacular' held in Sydney at the Entertainment Centre for ten years now.

[edit] Overall

Christopher Snape is one of Australia's leading young Lighting Designers. His lighting designs are imaginative, creative, inspiring and most of all; they has a powerful effect on any show. It's Snape's creative and visual ability to turn script and music into visual art that adds a unique intensity and strength to any production.

Snape believes that a great Lighting Designer sets the mood for memorable! A great Lighting Designer gives your audience a Visual to ensure a Performance to remember! A great Lighting Designer compliments the Audio Designer and extracts the DEPTH and EMOTION of a song to project a defining Visual.

With Snape's vast experience all of his Lighting Designs come accross as emotive and in turn connect the audience to the show on both a visual and emotional level! Chris has found that most people (promoters, managers, directors) when planning their events, musicals, concerts or tours don't think enough as to what a great Lighting Designer will add to their production. Snape believes that the Lighting Designer is every bit as important as the Audio Designer and Musicians. He also believes that all Lighting Designs must compliment the performance, not simplify or smother it.

Christopher continues developing his skills in the art of Lighting Design, and will continue to do so for as long as he is able. He is a talented young man that has overcome a lot of obstacles and yet still continues forward in his quest of becoming the best designer he can be. Chris believes in passing on knowledge so that the younger generations can carry forward the art in lighting design.

Lighting is his passion.

[edit] External links Sister project Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to: Christopher Snape Sister project Wikimedia Commons has media related to: Christopher Snape

   * Official website  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.13.157 (talk) 02:03, 17 January 2009 (UTC) 

Please read WP:N and WP:BIO. Wikipedia is not a place to publish articles about yourself. Wikipedia only takes information out there in the world, that has already been published in reliable sources and uses it to build articles. Subjects without extensive information outside of Wikipedia do not usually merit inclusion in Wikipedia. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

And WP:AUTO Empire3131 (talk) 02:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

And see WP:WWMPD. --Teratornis (talk) 07:03, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

</br>

What is the page that describe the code </br> like <noinclude>? Aquitania (talk) 06:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

</br> actually isn't anything, however, <br /> is an XHTML line break. <noinclude> is wiki-markup, which is separate from HTML/XHTML tags. Calvin 1998 ^(t·c) 06:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• There is some <noinclude> help here. —Noah 06:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

And see Help:HTML in wikitext and Wikipedia:Line break handling. --Teratornis (talk) 07:01, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

While it is a good practice to use the proper <br />, mangling it is not fatal. Wikipedia renders HTML though HTML Tidy; variations of the break will be repaired and rendered as XHTML break. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 10:57, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Image in dire need of modification

This image File:Wiens law.svg is in dire need of modification. The colour shown don't correspond to the peak wavelengths and this isn't mentioned in most of the captions. We could note it in the article, but it would be better to just modify the thing I think Nil Einne (talk) 12:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you do it yourself, since you seem to know about the subject? Be bold, go ahead and do it if you can. It'd be better than someone without any knowledge of the subject doing it. This might help you. Or if you can't, you can try asking at the Graphic Lab. Cheers. Chamal ^talk 14:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

But note, if you do edit it, make sure you edit the version on Commons and reupload it there: commons:File:Wiens law.svg. – ukexpat (talk) 15:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Made vector graphic out of raster - how to say it's from that raster?

Hi. I have made a vector version of a raster graphic (Raster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Athiest.jpg Vector: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SimplifiedAtheist.svg). I don't know how to say that the vector graphic is the raster graphic on the vector graphic page and I couldn't find anywhere where it said how. Could anyone please tell me how to do so? Torswin (talk) 13:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

For the old raster image, you can put {{Vector version available|NewImage.svg}} on the page. You should also fill in copyright information on the new vector information too, else it may get deleted in a week. Xclamation point 16:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Greek surname: Chondroyannos

I recently completed a new submission to the Wikipedia site. There are recognized submissions within Wikipedia referring to the specific name itself which was not before recognized independently on the site. Most notably the 'Greek name' article, subcategory: Greek surnames, also the 'Family name' article, subcategory: Greece. I have compiled this new submission which touches on the family name "Chondroyannos" to be documented within the Wikipedia resource and referenced by Wikipedia users. My question is in reference to its validity. When is it likely that this post will be recognized and incorporated into Wikipedia's database of information; its current status changed from requiring further reference/citation and the name indicted into the Wikipedia category, Greek surname? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chondroyannos (talk • contribs) 14:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It is already included as an article here: Chondroyannos. All your edits are visible as soon as you save them. However, you need to add references to it so that it will be verifiable. I have added it to the necessary category. Chamal ^talk 14:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Deleting New Topic that is Valid

My recent submission of a new term that is supported by research was speedy deleted because it had some posting errors (Linked quote from another site, - copyright issue) and it was determined that the information I posted about myself and my work in the field of research was not suitable. The Wiki editor even confirmed that the topic is valid. I have been 'warned' about further editing of the article, and am not getting answers from Talk.

Instead of deleting the topic why not edit it to comply or at least give me a chance? The article is gone and recovering it is difficult. I cry foul. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ShuttleSpace (talk • contribs) 17:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want to re-create the article, please consider doing so in a user subpage - User:ShuttleSpace/Shared reality for example. Then when you think it's ready for the mainspace, ask a few other editor to review it. Please not that even in your user space, it must not be a copyvio. – ukexpat (talk) 17:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I have reviewed the deleted article ShuttleSpace. You stated "I am proposing this term because there is currently no term that I know of, hence it's lack of 'wide use'" A neologism that you recently created will have no reliable sources. The content appears to constitute analysis, synthesis and original research. I left a welcome on your userpage with links to the major policies and guidelines. I have also left a warning about your username: it is the name of a company that was linked to in one of the articles, thus violates the username policy. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Translation

One of the articles I've written for de.wiki has been translated for en.wiki: constrictivity. In the spirit of free knowledge I'm really quite happy about this. But the translation is lacking proper attribution and therefore not conforming to the license. At de.wiki we use Help:Import to avoid this problem. However, I cannot find out if this function is enabled here. Also, I was not able to find out how the license issue is handled for translations here. Can someone help me out and fix this? --Rosentod (talk) 17:13, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Fascinating question... my joking response is "can the Wikimedia Foundation sue itself for violating the GFDL?" (I was looking at WP:COPYRIGHTS but I don't see how that applies to inter-wiki translations.) —Noah 21:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The page history [1] of Constrictivity shows the creation edit summary "create the article based on de.wikipedia", and the edit contains the interlanguage link de:Konstriktivität. This makes it relatively easy to track down the source (assuming it's not deleted from de.wikipedia) so I would just place a template from Category:Wikipedia translation templates on Talk:Constrictivity and be satisfied. Are you looking for a copy of the German page history to the English Wikipedia? I think that is rarely done although a strict interpretation of the GFDL may require something like that. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your answers. No, the Foundation can not sue because as the author I am the holder of the copyright. As I understand it the license requires the list of authors to be together with the article and not on a different server/site. Linking to the original article would not work anymore if it was removed from de.wiki for some reason, e.g. notability. I now fixed the problem. To make this clear: I fully endorse the translation. But as an author I insist on proper attribution. If wikipedia does not adhere to the license we can not expect others to do so. --Rosentod (talk) 12:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer and don't give legal advice, but I consider http://en.wikipedia.org and http://de.wikipedia.org to be on the same site. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:30, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

No, it is not the same site (for several reasons). As you can see here the databases are not even on the same server. So by no means can something on de.wiki be considered to be local to en.wiki. But I am not a lawyer as well. --Rosentod (talk) 09:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Fair Use

Does this file come under fair use licence? I dont think so, because here the 12th point says that

"Pictures of people still alive, groups still active, and buildings still standing; provided that taking a new free picture as a replacement (which is almost always considered possible) would serve the same encyclopedic purpose as the non-free image. This includes non-free promotional images."

Please reply.--Abhishek Jacob (talk) 17:59, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

If she is a living person, then policy on English Wikipedia says that it is possible to take another picture of her and release it under GFDL or equivalent licence, therefore this picture cannot be claimed under fair use. I deleted it per WP:CSD#I7 , invalid claim of fair use. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, there will be a deleting campaign in our wiki soon! Another doubt, is the fair use license valid only in USA? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abhishek Jacob (talk • contribs) 18:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia's fair use policy is based on US copyright law (though our policy is much stricter than the law), but similiar legal principles exist in other countries. See fair use, fair dealing and limitations and exceptions to copyright for example. Algebraist 18:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Missing references

I edited the page Ocular Myasthenia on 1/17/2009. This article contained three references. I included two new references in my edit using the format expecting that they would be automatically added at the end and in the text as numbers 4 and 5. However, the revised page still has only the original three references, and the ones I added are flagged in the text as 1 and 2. The result is that the References paragraph is now incorrect, the original 1 and 2 and my 1 and 2 are incompatible. I would greatly appreciate advice on how to fix this problem. Also, I do not understand how to ask this question on my talk page, there seems to be no window to type in Devonshire chemist (talk) 18:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks like someone has fixed the references for you - it needed a section with <references /> in it to make them shew up. To edit your talk page, go to it and click on either the "edit this page" or "new section" tabs at the top of the page. Them to add the "helpme" request, just type {{helpme|this is what I need help with}} and then save just as you would any other page. Wikipedia confuses almost everybody at times - so do please ask if this doesn't make sense, or you have any more questions! DuncanHill (talk) 18:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

If you click here [2], you will see how the references were made to shew up. DuncanHill (talk) 18:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

the promble of creating a new account

I am in china mainland ,you know i can only visit you site by agent.so when i want to creat my new account.i found i can not see the picture of the check number.thx! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.144.54.46 (talk) 18:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

You can request that an account be created for you at WP:ACC. Algebraist 18:56, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Editing page for school I work for

Hi there. I am an alumna and employee of a school whose page needs work. I specifically want to add more reliable resources. I don't work in PR or admissions, and I'm editing of my own volition. Any conflict? Thanks! Rmj12345 (talk) 21:48, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Just make a note on the talkpage and I can't really see the problem - as long as other editors know. --Cameron Scott (talk) 21:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

(e/c)Yes there is a conflict, but it can be managed. I suggest that you declare your COI on the talk page and then discuss the changes that you think need to be made and the references supporting them. – ukexpat (talk) 21:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Deletion without entry in Revision History

Through my watchlist, I was notified of a contribution to my talk page. I read the contribution, and decided to return later to reply when I had more time. However when I did return, the contribution had vanished. There was no evidence of it at all in the Revision History, as if it never had happened.

What has happened here? Did an administrator or someone else delete it in the backend? Is that common practice? Should I have been informed? 115.129.3.160 (talk) 23:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

You are viewing wikipedia using a 3G network which has constantly shifting IP addresses. As such, your IP address 5 minutes ago might not be the same IP address that you have in 5 minutes time. If you edited Wikipedia, then I would check the page history of the article that you edited to find out the IP address when you made an edit. Regards. Woody (talk) 23:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Woody. I'm unsure if you've attempted to answer my question, or provide advice? If it's the latter, thanks. If it's the former, I'm referring to a contribution made by someone else. Can you shed any light on the situation?115.129.3.160 (talk) 23:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

My point being that your talkpage a few hours ago may, and most likely is, different from your talkpage at the moment. There are no "deleted edits" on your current talkpage, and no actions in the deletion log, so nobody has edited User talk:115.129.3.160. If you have an account then I could check the deleted edits for that talkpage as well. IPs do not have the ability to create a watchlist which leads me to think so. Regards. Woody (talk) 23:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, now I understand. Please check here. Ryanwiki (talk) 00:10, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

No need to apologise, easy area for confusion. I have checked the revision history, the deleted history and your talkpage log and no edits have been deleted by an administrator. Are you sure that the comments were not deleted by a user, or by yourself. If not, then I can't think of any other reason I'm afraid. (barring oversight which is extremely unlikely unless it was revealing personal information.) Regards, Woody (talk) 00:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh OK, yes, the contribution did in fact reveal a user's real name. Oversight must be it. Thanks! Ryanwiki (talk) 00:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

This diff shows no changes between apparently consecutive edits. If no change is made then no edit should be recorded in the page history, so it looks plausible that something else was saved but later oversighted. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:35, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Instructions

Do reliable sources that only have info about how to play a game or how to use a certain thing show notability? Schuym1 (talk) 23:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Given that notability is inherently subjective, your question admits no definite answer until you illustrate it with examples. What game? What reliable sources? And, of course, notable to whom? The working definition of "notability" on Wikipedia is always "whatever the people who want to delete something think is notable." If nobody has challenged an article's notability (yet), then it is "notable" (so far). The definition of notability on Wikipedia may expand, or contract, in the future. (I would bet the definition will expand, as Wikipedia keeps getting larger, thereby attracting ever more groups of users willing to defend ever more obscure articles against deletion. A deletionist is, after all, merely someone who sees no value in a particular article. There might be 100 people somewhere in world who would see life-and-death value in the same article, and it's only a question of time before they discover Wikipedia. 100 people who care strongly about something will tend to work much harder to defend it than someone who is merely unimpressed by it will usually want to work to destroy it. I think eventually Wikipedia will contain everything that can be reliably sourced, and "notability" will cease to have any useful meaning independent of that.) --Teratornis (talk) 01:40, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I am talking about the guideline and not editor's personal opinions. All I want to know is if reliable sources with only instructions (reliable sources in general) is counted as trivial or significant coverage. Schuym1 (talk) 01:57, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

So you actually believe that there will be a time when the notability guideline isn't needed. I know that it will never happen because there is no way that there will ever be a consensus to get rid of it. Also, if no one says that something is non-notable in a discussion doesn't mean that it is notable if it doesn't go by WP:N or any other notability guideline. Schuym1 (talk) 02:17, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Teratornis's interesting interpretation aside, notability generally requires the following things:

1. Reliable sources (that is, sources that have some sort of editorial control)
2. Independent sources (that is, sources written by people who have no stake or interest in the subject at hand
3. Extensive sources (not just trivial mention, but in depth coverage)
4. Multiple sources (not just one web page, but reported in many places

Given the vaguesness of your question, since you haven't posted the source, it is hard to tell. If the game has been described in a published, well respected book (such as Hoyle's) or magazine (such as Games Magazine) then it is likely notable. If someone posted the rules on a self-made website, then no, it isn't notable. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I know that because I kick inclusionist butt all the time. Most of the sources that I'm referring to are probably self published. How about the book source mentioned here (not the second one because it is a trivial mention). Schuym1 (talk) 03:01, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd say that having an honest-to-goodness published book TOGETHER with all of the other stuff makes this one likely notable. In this specific case, with those specific sources, I would say that this one game passes WP:N tests. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:08, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I have withdrawed. My Google searches brought up mostly crap results so it's good that you participated in the AFD. Schuym1 (talk) 03:17, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

(undent) A few more thoughts on notability: I think the idea of "notability" as being somehow independent of WP:RS and WP:V, and therefore necessary to name and think about, is mostly a relic of the early days of Wikipedia when it was necessary to keep Wikipedia from growing too fast. It's very easy to start new articles of low quality, and much harder to bring articles up to featured status. Therefore Wikipedia needs some brake on article creation, to keep the average quality of existing articles reasonably high. When people browse to Wikipedia, they form their impressions based on whatever they happen to look at, so it is harmful to Wikipedia if the number of stubby articles increases too fast. Wikipedia needs to impress lots of people, so they will donate money to the project and keep it going. The more articles of high quality we have on more topics, the more viewers we will attract, and the more donations we will get. Wikipedia benefits more by growing than by not growing, as long as we can maintain quality. Jimbo Wales says the goal is to make "the sum of human knowledge" available to everyone on Earth for free. As long as we are deleting parts of "human knowledge," we haven't reached the goal yet. Jimbo did not say "the sum of notable human knowledge" because that would be like Jimbo deciding for everyone what knowledge is important and what knowledge isn't. The simple fact is that one person's cruft is another person's passion. Adding up everyone's passions and what they know about them is how you get "the sum" of human knowledge.

When Wikipedia first started, it had negligible impact on the world around it. Over time, Wikipedia's impact grew, and thus the importance of getting information onto Wikipedia became more important to more people. Some fields of human activity are far better than others at making their information acceptable to Wikipedia. For example, List of crossings of the Ohio River implies that every single such crossing is notable. However, not all of the bridges and dams across the Ohio have articles yet, because these are such boring topics that hardly anyone who edits on Wikipedia cares about them. In contrast, there might be some computer game that ten thousand kids are passionate about, but kids tend to be disorganized about documenting and publicizing their activities. (The ruling class everywhere in the world is mostly over the age of 40, and they have had more time to learn how the systems of civilization work. In particular, rulers understand the importance of getting their stuff published.) Therefore we have this odd situation that some dam on the Ohio River that maybe only 100 people think much about is "notable" while a game that ten thousand kids are playing might not be, because kids haven't yet learned how to put their knowledge into the traditional print space that Wikipedia regards as raw material.

However, kids can learn to do what their parents are doing. Kids who care about some computer game and want to see it in Wikipedia can make the stunning realization that they can get reporters to write about their game, just as their elders get reporters to write about some dam on the Ohio River that nobody cares about, or just as mathematicians can make some obscure theorem "notable" even though maybe only a few dozen people in the entire world have much knowledge about it. Mathematicians and government officials have the organization to solidify their knowledge in writing. As the importance of Wikipedia grows, more and more groups of people who are disorganized will figure out how to organize and systematize their knowledge similarly. In this way, Wikipedia's success will tend to make "notability" as a distinct requirement self-obsoleting. There will be no need for Wikipedians to arrive at any consensus to eliminate the notability guideline (note: it is not a policy), because notability is really just Wikipedia's way of telling enthusiasts for a particular subject area what they have to do to make their knowledge acceptable to Wikipedia. If they care about getting their knowledge onto Wikipedia, they will make it notable. For Wikipedia to reach its "sum of all human knowledge" goal, we must make Wikipedia seem important enough to enough people to motivate them to document what they care about in a verifiable way. --Teratornis (talk) 07:03, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the key part of WP:N is the bit about extensive/non-trivial sources. For example, my real name and address are published in a reliable source (a phone book). Thus, my existance is verifiable and that verification exists in a reliable source. However, I do not merit inclusion in Wikipedia. Why? Because people have not written enough about me. WP:N has always been, since the first, about "how much is enough". Also, it should be noted that "guideline" does not mean "policies I can ignore" or "inferior policies" or "may someday become a policy when it grows up". Guidelines serve different purposes than policies, and are not inferior to them. BOTH should be followed unless there is a compelling reason not to do so. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I want to make a few supplemental points:

• In support of Jayron32, WP:N derives its material from policy pages. Each statement about notability on that page exists because editors agreed that the article reflects policy statements made elsewhere. In particular, WP:N owes its existence to various content policies (WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:NOT), deletion policies, and WP:5. If you can edit contrary to WP:N, you will find yourself violating policy. If you adhere to policy, you will find that you are also adhering to WP:N. So, if you find the policy pages suitable for moderating your editing, then go ahead and ignore WP:N. If you find use in the brief collated information found at WP:N, then don't be shy when referring to it!
• On the edit page, the Wiki framework is telling me that "This page is only for questions about using Wikipedia." This discussion is no longer a grab-and-go-guide about WP:N and should probably travel back to WT:N if other editors feel that this is still important. —Kanodin (talk to me / slap me) 15:16, 19 January 2009 (UTC)