Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 May 13

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May 13

Mutopia project music licencing

All of the music on the Mutopia project are composed by authors dead for more than 100 years ago and/or before 1923, so that they are obviously in the public domain. The music scores are exactly the same as the originals. However, certain pieces are said to be licensed under Creative Commons. Is it legal to copy, share, modify, distribute, adapt them without accepting the terms of the licenses? 113.190.102.74 (talk) 01:37, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this doesn't fall under the prohibition on legal advice. I will say that in the United States, and only there, it's well established that slavish reproductions of public domain works are not eligible for copyright. However, even a tiny creative input, such as changing the pagination or the horizontal spacing of the notes, might be enough to create a copyrightable derivative work. -- BenRG (talk) 02:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

La frégate L'Artémise entrant à Tanoa, après son échouage

Does anybody know who created La frégate L'Artémise entrant à Tanoa, après son échouage and in what year?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

The scan of the book on Google Books, page 3, isn't brilliant, but the illustrator appears to be one "M. de Laplante" (or possibly "de Laplande", but that isn't a valid French name as far as I know). Presumably the picture was drawn at the same time the book was published, in 1841. Tevildo (talk) 12:32, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

The name of the book's author is M. LAPLACE who was "captain of the vessel". Alansplodge (talk) 15:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

On whom (Cyrille Pierre Théodore Laplace) we have an article, naturally. (It looks like we could do with Laplace (surname) as well, but I digress). More importantly, I doubt if he drew his own pictures for his book, and the penultimate character of the artist's name has an ascender - I suppose it could be "de Laplalce", on the outer boundaries of possibility. Tevildo (talk) 16:07, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

De Lalande seems to be the engraver, but he was not a drawer (See here). The name of the drawer could be the one written below the engraving in the middle. Unfortunatly I cannot read it. — AldoSyrt (talk) 17:02, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

On the left "Paris de.." , in the middle "B...g..d imp.", on the right "de Laplante ..". Paris: could be the drawer, in the middle: the name of the printer (imp.), de Laplante: the engraver. The drawer could be François-Edmond Pâris who took part to the expedition aboard L'Artémise; he is described here as a skilful drawer (dessinateur habile). — AldoSyrt (talk) 17:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

That's probably it - I must admit I thought "Paris" was the place of publication. Could "de[s]" be "dessiné"? Tevildo (talk) 18:25, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

There's a marginally better scan of a different volume of this book on the Internet Archive, which has illustrations by the same artist, although I still can't read the small print. Alansplodge (talk) 22:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Historical popular culture "meems"

There are word nerds that like to look for the first documented use of a word. Is there a equivalent for pop culture "memes" such as 'slipping on a banana peel'? I need to find out how to become one of these nerds. ike9898 (talk) 01:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Wanting to be a nerd is the first step. Congratulations on your commitment to this noble cause.

The second step is to become super-conscious of even the most infinitesimal inconsistency or discrepancy, let alone gross ones like writing "meems" in the header but "memes" in the question. Normally I would leave this sort of thing alone and just weep quietly, but you did ask how to become a nerd, and boot camp can be a bit of a shock to the unprepared.

Thirdly, as this is Mother's Day, I can do no better than tell you what my dear late father used to say to me: "Do as I do and you won't go far wrong". In other words, find some editor or writer you can relate to, and emulate them. We've all done it.

Fourthly, avoid sliding into pedantry even as you revel in your new-found nerdiness. They are different things.

Fifthly, trawl through the zillions of resources now available on words, etymology, etc. There are far too many to ever keep track of, but anything by Michael Quinion is always good value, as is anything by the Blessed Lynne Truss. Also the late William Safire. So many more, Just start reading somewhere, and see where your Nerd Journey takes you. Best of luck. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 02:10, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I have the impression (having forgotten any examples) that Safire sometimes fell for just-so stories. —Tamfang (talk) 01:26, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

tvtropes.org is a useful source for this sort of thing (see the banana peel article). It's a wiki like Wikipedia. I have no experience with the community but I suspect it's exactly what you're looking for. For more recent Internet fads there's knowyourmeme.com.

I'm surprised, actually, that Wikipedia has no article about slipping on a banana peel. Someone should write it. Seriously. -- BenRG (talk) 02:23, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Buy a copy of Brewer's dictionary of phrase and fable. --Dweller (talk) 07:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Brewer makes a swell bathroom-book. But it says nothing about banana peels (in the edition I have). —Tamfang (talk) 01:26, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Marriage

Can someone on probation for a felony marry someone who has a felony on there background? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.91.64.135 (talk) 03:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I can't think of any obvious reason not, but marriage laws vary from state to state, so your best bet is to contact a local attorney. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

It's not going to violate any marriage laws, but I think you're talking about the common restriction that they "shouldn't associate with other felons during the probation period". In that case, I suppose a strict probation officer might revoke probation and have him serve out his time. StuRat (talk) 03:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

United States federal probation and supervised release#Standard conditions lists the condition that the parolee "shall not associate with any person convicted of a felony, unless granted permission to do so by the probation officer" (unreferenced though). Clarityfiend (talk) 03:58, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I thought the RD did not provide legal advise. But I imagine is more of a case by case rule. OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:31, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Of course, once a felon's probationary period is completed (ie both ex-cons are no longer on probation) they are free to marry whomever they wish. So it is really just a matter of timing. Blueboar (talk) 14:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Relationship of Cole's `The voyage of Life' and Rachmaninoff's `Symphonic Dances'

Question to Wikipedia: 50 years ago when I was a young man records of Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances would sometimes come with a cover picture of one of Cole's `Voyage of Life' pictures. Question: Is there any evidence that Rachmaninoff used the Cole `concept' as the basis or inspiration for his work `Symphonic Dances'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gingi^me (talk • contribs) 15:23, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I don’t believe so. Google produces no confirmation. I'm a bit of a Rachmaninoff geek (and I happened to hear the Symphonic Dances only 2 nights ago), but I've never heard of any such connection. In fact, I'd never heard of Thomas Cole or his beautiful work at all till now.

It is interesting, though, that The Voyage of Life is "an allegory of the four stages of human life: childhood, youth, manhood, and old age", while the three movements of the Symphonic Dances are subtitled "Noon, Twilight and Midnight", and it’s easy to see how some record marketer would see the parallels.

Also, see Talk:Prelude in C-sharp minor (Rachmaninoff)#Documenting the "story" of Prelude in C-sharp minor?, where:

• Unlike many of his contemporaries, Rachmaninoff was never shy about discussing extra-musical influences on his works, at one point explaining that: "When composing, I find it of great help to have in mind a book recently read, or a beautiful painting, or a poem. Sometimes a definite story is kept in mind, which I try to convert into tones without disclosing the source of my inspiration. (the link for that quote is now gone, unfortunately).

Hence, it's not inconceivable that Rachmaninoff was aware of these particular paintings and was inspired by them but never disclosed this to anyone. But we'll never know now, unless there's some reference to them in his letters, but I think the connection would have been discovered and revealed well before now if it was there to be found. Still, one never knows with these things. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:13, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Identification of a Native American

Are there any clues to identify this photo? Looks like historical, but I can't find anything about her tribe, name, author of the image or creation date. Brandmeister^talk 15:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe that's historical. Her style of makeup looks very modern. I also don't think she looks very native-American. Looie496 (talk) 18:14, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Her smile and clean hair also indicate a modern picture. Pictures from a century ago had people with greasy hair and frowns. StuRat (talk) 01:35, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

She has very European features and Caucasian hair. The quality of the photo indicates it was taken recently. Her attire is more late 60s-hippy-at-Woodstock than authentic Native American. Most likely another wannabee with a bogus "full-blood Cherokee" grandmother.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Here's the photo's record in the National Archives catalog.--Cam (talk) 01:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

It's specifically identified here as one of a set of "Indian girls in traditional dress, ca. 1920", and "posed, rather artistically". Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

War until one side has 0 men left?

Are there any recent examples of wars (between nations, etc., not between street gangs or such) in which the sides fought until one side had exactly 0 people left? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.42.157.114 (talk) 16:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No. There has never been a war in recorded history where everyone on the losing side was killed. (I suppose there might have been some very small "tribal" battles in pre-history where everyone in a tribe was killed). Blueboar (talk) 16:18, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, if you count colonization as "war", some of the islands in the Caribbean seem to have had their entire population exterminated by the Spanish. No doubt European diseases did most of the work, with the Spaniards glad to finish them off. They then imported black slaves, once the native population was no longer available for enslavement. StuRat (talk) 01:28, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The same applies to Tasmania, for example —in this case by the British—, among others. Although in those cases the native population, technically, wasn't exterminated, but reduced to negligible numbers and genetically diluted by later immigrants. --Broadside Perceptor (talk) 02:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Also, I couldn't help but laugh at the sheer ignorance displayed in your statement about the Spaniards being "glad to finish them off". The Spaniards —or any other European colonial power for that matter— were actually very preoccupied about the plunging native population, evidently not because they cared the least about their well-being but because they wanted to enslave the entire population to work in their plantations or mines. African slaves could be very expensive. --Broadside Perceptor (talk) 02:33, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

It was meant to be a tongue-in-cheek statement, showing their utter disregard for natives, but thanks for the insult, in any case. StuRat (talk) 03:27, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

My apologies, then. I'm not that good at detecting Internet sarcasm. --Broadside Perceptor (talk) 18:13, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

To get back to the original question, the Paraguayan War (1864-1870) had a devastating impact on Paraguay's demography, almost wiping out its male population, and 60% of its total population. --Xuxl (talk) 09:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Likewise, King Philips War led to the death, enslavement, and deportation of 60-80% of the Native American population in southern New England. --Jayron32 19:27, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Any sort of ethnic cleansing would be so. There are also Biblical cases of rather dubious historicity, such as the Amalekites whom Saul was ordered to wipe out to the last baby, and I think there are a fair list supposedly wiped out in the Book of Joshua also.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:21, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

English Civil War, international reaction

What was the reaction of foreign nations to the English Civil War, which resulted in the execution of Charles I and the establishment of a republic? After the French Revolution there was a strong conservative reaction in Britain, and probably in other countries too.

How did the absolute monarchies (France, Spain etc.) react in the 1640s? Did the early modern republics (Holland, some Italian cities) have an opinion? Apparently England took France's side in a war against Spain, but this was a war over commercial interests and wasn't related to the changes in England. Ilikeredirects (talk) 21:23, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

They, by and large, didn't like it. Monarchs tended to get kinda pissy when one of their fellow monarches get seperated from their heads. Plus, they were all cousins anyways, and one tends to look down upon having your cousin killed, even if you did bicker from time to time. The continent had no interest of intervening during the civil war, due to the ongoing Thirty Years War. Though the Peace of Westphalia was passed during the midst of the English Civil War, there was little enthusiasm towards fighting another intractable war, so England was basically left to its own devices. During and after the War, Charles II of England was raised in the courts of both the King of France (Louis XIV) and the Stadtholder of the Netherlands (William II), and both France and the Netherlands provided "support" for the Royalist cause, though I'm pretty sure "support" in this case represented a token monetary support, but not actual fighting men (which the Royalist cause was short of). Remember, that though the Netherlands was a federal republic in name during the ECW, it was a pecurliarly monarchical federal republic. The ruling class of the Netherlands (the House of Orange) were no less "royal" than the other great houses of Europe. France had its own civil war it was dealing with, and couldn't be bothered with actual help across La Manche (see the Fronde) and the Netherlands had their own domestic issues, not the least of which was the death of the Stadtholder of Smallpox in 1650, during the interregnum that followed there was no chance of bailing out the English monarchy. There was the First Anglo-Dutch War between the Johan de Witt regime and the Cromwell Regime, but as DeWitt was a Republican, there was no desire or effort to restore the Monarchy of England, that was purely a trade war Other countries which may have cared about this sort of thing had their own issues, Portugal and Spain, were busy un-uniting (see Portuguese Restoration War, while Scandanavia, Russia, and Poland were busy with the Northern Wars. The ECW and Commonwealth happened at a time when there was literally no one left in Europe to come to the aid of the Royalists, and the Stuarts were basically on their own. --Jayron32 00:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I was wondering about their philosophical response, if that makes sense. After the French Revolution, Burke wrote a book condemning the concept of democracy and William Pitt abandoned his reform proposals to the suffrage.

The English Civil War resulted in a lot of innovative ideas being spread around. There were new religious ideas about bishops etc., and there were new political ideas about general suffrage.

John Lilburne was a famous prisoner. While his ideas didn't find general agreement, they did find general discussion, and some people in other European countries must have been aware of them and commented on them. Does anyone know, what kind of things did they say? Ilikeredirects (talk) 12:29, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Pierre De Fermat 2

I asked this question above already but most of the answers did not satisfy me! Most of them are off topic! I don't care if he actually proved it or not. What i'm asking is what happened to all his records? Why were they lost? The only valid answer i got was his records got burned! Was that it?!174.20.9.68 (talk) 22:12, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

That was sheer speculation by StuRat and not a valid answer. OsmanRF34 (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

It wasn't meant to be a statement of what actually happened, but an example of what could happen, to show how easily great works, which few people understand, can be lost. StuRat (talk) 03:25, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Andre Weil's Number Theory: An Approach Through History From Hammurapi to Legendre (1984), cited in our Fermat article, has information and well informed speculation on the reasons for Fermat's non-publication. Mr. 98's answer is the best above IMHO.John Z (talk) 01:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

In 1843, the minister of public education of France decided to publish a new edition of Fermat's works. Appointed as head was Guglielmo Libri, an obsessive collector of books and manuscripts. In 1848 an arrest warrant was issued, it seemed that he had stolen a lot of works from French libraries. Libri fled to London with most of his "personal" library. He continued trading in books and manuscripts, among them writings by Galileo, Kepler, Leibnitz, D’Alembert, and the last two works by Abel. Seems likely that as head of the project, he would have had access to most of Fermat's manuscripts, so maybe they got lost because of this. You can read about the search for the Abel manuscripts here. Not sure if much is known about Fermat's papers. Keep in mind also that paper was expensive, maybe they used slates or something like blackboards while working. Could be that Fermat just didn't bother copying the proofs he found. Using a quill must have been tedious. Ssscienccce (talk) 10:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

We have an article on him: Guglielmo Libri Carucci dalla Sommaja. Clearly, he is the origin of the phrase Ex Libris.  :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 17:49, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

An interesting but obscure fact: blackboards actually didn't become routine in Western mathematics until the early 19th century. I'm not sure what they would have used for their notes/working in the 17th century, but it was probably scrap paper of some sort. (Not surprising that Fermat did some of his most famous work in the margins of his books, I suppose.) --Mr.98 (talk) 14:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I looked everywhere but couldn't find anything "erasable" that they would have used at that time. But finally got this: English engineer, Edward Naime is also credited with the creation of the first eraser in 1770. Before rubber, breadcrumbs had been used to erase pencil marks. Ssscienccce (talk) 15:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Alright according to my understanding of all the statements regarding Fermat's records then I can make a conclusion that his records were lost and we don't know what has happened to them for sure? Is that it?!174.20.9.68 (talk) 21:33, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I understand that Fermat himself never published anything, hence there was no need to organize his notes. Libri describes (in French wikisource) what is known on Fermat's papers and letters and the efforts by Fermat's son Samuel to collect some. What was found was published, see [1] (in French wikisource). --87.156.207.169 (talk) 22:36, 14 May 2012 (UTC)