Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 June 30
| Humanities desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < June 29 | << May | June | Jul >> | July 1 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
June 30
editA Cato the Elder quote?
editDoes anyone know the source of the following quote: "Two augurs cannot walk past each other without smiling". (Since they both know what nonsense their predictions are.) It is associated in my mind with Cato the Elder but I'm not entirely confident. I've checked Wikiquote and it's not there. Leaving aside the attribution, does anyone recall a similar saying? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 19:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, attributed to one Cato or another by Cicero in Book 2 of De Divinatione: "But indeed, that was quite a clever remark which Cato made many years ago: 'I wonder,' said he, 'that a soothsayer doesn't laugh when he sees another soothsayer.'" [1]. (Vetus autem illud Catonis admodum scitum est, qui mirari se aiebat quod non rideret haruspex haruspicem cum vidisset.) [2]. --Antiquary (talk) 20:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Cicero refers to Cato the Younger earlier in the same book: "I have also recently thrown in that book On Old Age, which I sent my friend Atticus; and, since it is by philosophy that a man is made virtuous and strong, my Cato1 is especially worthy of a place among the foregoing books." So it is likely he is referring to the great-grandson. Later he mentions Cato in the list "Cato, Varro,2 Coponius or I?". Varro and Coponius were contemporaries of Cicero, so this also points to Cato the Younger. --Lambiam 09:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Good points, but when I look on Google Books for attributions from modern Classics scholars I only find them naming Cato the Elder, either by name or as the author of De agri cultura: [3] [4] [5]. Is that solely because in that work Cato the Elder told his steward not to consult haruspices? But others were also rather sniffy about them [6]. I'm left in doubt which Cato Cicero meant. --Antiquary (talk) 18:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Cato the Younger was younger than Cicero. If "De Divinatione" is from around 44 BC (when Cato the Younger was about 50) what could "many years ago" mean and which of Cato the Younger's books (did he write any?) would have been written early enough in Cato's life and have given Cato an opportunity to say something about diviners? On the other hand is it possible that the "clever remark" may have been oral (either spoken directly or reported to Cicero)? Even if Cato's saying in Cicero's words feels like written Latin, is it possible that Cicero was parphrasing, not reporting it literally? Incidentally there's something intriguing about a deeply traditionalist guy (both Catos were) being skeptical of and even sarcastic about a matter of religion. A mix of pragmatic skepticism and traditionalism seems to fit Cato the Elder better, doesn't it? Traditionalism in Cato the Younger's time seems to have become too demonstrative and ideological for him to allow himself to mock a matter of religion, doesn't it? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 23:09, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Good points, but when I look on Google Books for attributions from modern Classics scholars I only find them naming Cato the Elder, either by name or as the author of De agri cultura: [3] [4] [5]. Is that solely because in that work Cato the Elder told his steward not to consult haruspices? But others were also rather sniffy about them [6]. I'm left in doubt which Cato Cicero meant. --Antiquary (talk) 18:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Cicero refers to Cato the Younger earlier in the same book: "I have also recently thrown in that book On Old Age, which I sent my friend Atticus; and, since it is by philosophy that a man is made virtuous and strong, my Cato1 is especially worthy of a place among the foregoing books." So it is likely he is referring to the great-grandson. Later he mentions Cato in the list "Cato, Varro,2 Coponius or I?". Varro and Coponius were contemporaries of Cicero, so this also points to Cato the Younger. --Lambiam 09:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)