Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 December 15

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December 15

Hidden cultural references?

What do these two questions given in quick sucession mean? Showed up on a

1. Can you hold your beer?
2. Are you a man on a mission?

I can't make head or tail out of this one. Any hints? --HappyCamper 02:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Normally, as far as idioms go, to be able to "hold your beer" (or any other alcoholic beverage) is to be able to drink a significant volume of beer without suffering particularly ill effects, such as vomiting or passing out. Someone who can hold their beer will be one of the last ones left standing at the end of the night. A "man on a mission" is someone who is very strongly driven to complete a task of some sort; someone who is completely obsessed with completing some specific task they've set out to do. One other possible reference is the country music song "Hold My Beer" by Aaron Pritchett, which uses both phrases, although the holding of the beer is in the literal sense of physically keeping it in your hand. (While the singer steals your girlfriend, to be precise -- which is his mission, as it turns out.) Lyrics. --ByeByeBaby 05:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

My friend, you are awesome! Thanks so much - the Aaron Pritchett reference was exactly what I was looking for. --HappyCamper 16:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Latin to English Translation

I am trying to translate the latin phrase "per scientiam servitia". A few translations I have already gotten from other websites/programs are "through the knowledge the slaveries". I don't agree with that translation. I'm more apt to think the translation would be more along the lines of "Through the servitude of knowledge" or "knowledge by the means of servitude". Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

68.1.114.221 02:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The most generous case that can be made for this as meaningful Latin is "servants through knowledge." What is inarguable is that it means "[plural of servitium] through knowledge"; see further the lexicon entry for servitium, which includes the somewhat uncommon translation I'm suggesting. Wareh 03:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You're going the extra mile to be generous Wareh, but maybe it's better just to say that this is gibberish - surely it would convey no meaning to a native Latin speaker if such a one could be reincarnated? Context might be helpful, if the original questioner could let us know where he/she came across the phrase. It looks like one of those fumbled attempts by non-Latinists to come up with an impressive motto. You can see lots more on similar lines by Googling 'per scientiam'. Maid Marion 13:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that it is an attempt to render "service through science" in Latin. Marco polo 14:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree - but it does it very badly. Robovski 04:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it gives the impression of trying to use servitia as a first-declension noun & is most probably just bad Latin. Wareh 03:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves

What is the message that is being sent in this book? I don't quite get it.

This should probably go on the Humanities Desk, but to get you started, have you read the article on Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves? Anchoress 03:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Message? What need for a message? It's just an entertaining story, with no didactic purpose unlike, say, Aesop's Fables. It is just another tale for Scheherazade to wile away those long Arabian nights. The little man sometimes wins out against the odds, which is, I suppose, the main comfort to be taken. Clio the Muse 09:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This reminds me of the famous quote attributed to Samuel Goldwyn: "Pictures are for entertainment, messages should be delivered by Western Union". (According to wikiquote, though I've also heard it worded differently). ---Sluzzelin 10:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The first thing that saved Ali Baba was his lack of greediness. The second was his trust in the abilities and loyalty of someone who most people would write-off. So I think the main lesson is economic -take only what you need and care for the people around you; and ancillary ones are critiques of the social hierarchy (the cleverest one was a slave girl), and the importance of positive interpersonal relationships.

I respectfully disagree with Clio and Sluz. Every story has a message, often several. That many storytellers don't take this into account only means that they're in less control of which messages they're conveying through the stories they choose to tell. -LambaJan 14:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The Tiger and the Hare

What is the sacrifice of the animals in this story?

This question should probably be on the Humanities Desk, but anyways... we don't seem to have an article on that particular fable, but you can check some of the google results I found. Anchoress 04:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Se questo è un uomo

This an odd question, but I was wondering why the American version of Se questo è un uomo was released as Survival in Auschwitz? I originally purchased the book in Australia as If This Is a Man, and have only recently been able to find it in the states once I figured out the other title. Any thoughts? --Cody.Pope 03:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

They probably thought it was a catchier title. Personally, I think it's way worse... 惑乱 分からん 04:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Either that ("Auschwitz" being a shocking word that sells) or maybe there's a copyright issue involved. For what it's worth, the Dutch, German and Portuguese versions of the title are close to the original, but seem to be in the form of the question Is This a Man? or perhaps Is This a Human? (Is dit een mens, Ist das ein Mensch, É isso um homem?). The Spanish and French versions are verbatim translations of the original Italian title. ---Sluzzelin 07:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The English language version that I read, published by Penguin Books in the UK, was also correctly titled If this is a Man. I have to agree that the use of Auschwitz in the title was most likely for cynical marketing purposes. I cannot imagine that Levi would have agreed to this change. Death camps sell as entertainment, a thought both sobering and tragic. Clio the Muse 09:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree; it doesn't seem to be a legal issue, since it was previously published in the U.S. with the right title (If this is a man. Translated from the Italian by Stuart Woolf. New York: Orion Press, 1959.) Wareh 03:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

To Indent or Not to Indent

I was just wondering if anyone around here knew the answer to this question:

Should the very first paragraph of a typed publication have its very first line indented?

Specifically, I am refering to works such as essays, research papers, and other documents found in scholarly academia. But in its broadest sense, the question includes any substantial, significant composition or product of writiing ever typed on a computer keyboard or typewriter perhaps. My query is, of course, subject to any amount of debate or any number of disputes, but I welcome anyone to tell me whatever anyone may know. Please explain anything I may have missed or spell out the different views of the topic. Oh, and tell me if I should move this to the Computing Reference Desk instead or as well. Thanks a million, guys.

--DrZeus 05:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I asked this very question a while ago. The consensus seemed to be that the first line should not be indented, because the only purpose of a paragraph indent is to indicate the beginning of a new paragraph, and there obviously isn't the need for that signal with the first paragraph. BTW, the humanities or misc ref desks would probably have been better for this query. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 05:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I just didn't want as much attention. But anyway, you are right. Got that. But recently I've been hearing that many, maybe unprofessional writers, especially Americans, have been raised thinking that the first paragraph is always indented. Is there any way that you can prove your claim in detail? I mean, I have some opposition here. How should you indent, anyway? --DrZeus 07:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no hard and fast rule. Many universities and other institutions have their own house rules on this sort of thing, but there is no global standard. Publishers much prefer a blank line between paragraphs of a manuscript rather than an indent.--Shantavira 09:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I would say it's up to the professor, publisher, journal, whatever that you are submitting it to. Some publishers have their own style rules, others refer to standard style manuals like the MLA Style Manual or Chicago Manual of Style. I've never submitted to a journal myself, but I believe that they issue guidelines for submissions that make this clear. If this is something you're turning in to a professor, you could ask what style they prefer. But there's nothing "provable" here. FreplySpang 14:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I was educated in the USA, and I was taught to indent the first paragraph. My wife, educated in the UK, says that this is wrong. Best bet is to get a style guide if one is available. I'd say that this is a matter of preferred style as opposed to who is "right". Robovski 04:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Go to a library. Select some books published before the advent of computer typesetting (say from before 1970) that look like some care has been given to their typography. Check how the first paragraph of each chapter is handled. You'll see that in most cases (but not all) it is not indented. You may see some other conventions that have fallen into disuse.  --Lambiam^Talk 01:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

PATIENT - SHE or HE

I have read in a Psychiatry Text book the following sentences, where "patient" means both sexes: -The "patient" believes that "he" has special powers. -Sometimes the person has a complex system of delusions involving both a wide range of persecutions and a belief that there is a well-designed conspiracy behind them: for example, that the "patient's" house is bugged and that "she" is being followed.

I am in doubt if the masculine & feminine forms of the pronoun can be used indistinctly or if only one of them is correct. would someone tell me please—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.62.97 (talk • contribs)

"He" is now considered rather old fashioned, as some people consider it sexist. It is better to say "he or she". You can also use "they". Some people consider "they" incorrect to refer to a single person, but this usage dates back to the sixteenth century. Alternatively, these sentences can often be rephrased to avoid the problem. Please don't keep repeating your question.--Shantavira 09:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Some people simply use "she" all the time. I'm of the opinion you can use either he or she as long as you note it can refer to both sexes. Singular they can also be an alternative in some cases. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Using the singular pronoun changes the emphasis slightly, making it sound more personal. mnewmanqc 16:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

If you use he, people will think you're sexist. If you use she, people will think you're trying so hard not to be sexist and accuse you of positive discrimination. If you use they, people will question your grammar. You can't really win. Generally it's a good idea just to alternate between he and she (though not for the same person of course!)

Sanskrit

I would like to see the Sanskrit word, dvandva, as it appears in its own language. Can you display the Sanskrit alphabet?--Jelizbeth 17:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no "Sanskrit alphabet". The script (not an alphabet, but an abugida) most commonly associated with Sanskrit is Devanāgarī, but that is a relatively modern invention and did not exist in the time of Vedic and Classical Sanskrit. For example, Pāṇini, assuming he used writing at all, would have written in the Brāhmī script, which looks nothing like Devanāgarī. (Earlier on the reference desk I embarrassed myself by getting all this wrong and acting like I knew what I was talking about.)

That said, the word dvaṃdva (IAST), meaning "pair", looks like this in Devanāgarī: द्वंद्व (I can render that into an image if you don't have a proper font for it. It should look like two characters, not four.) —Keenan Pepper 20:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The word I'm looking for means, loosely translated, all things being equal. Literally, two things joined into one like bittersweet. Could you render the image, please? I'm considering it as artwork for a brochure.

The word dvaṃdva in Devanāgarī

I think we're talking about the same word, you're just using a poetic meaning. Here is a rendering as a transparent PNG in the font Kalimati. Seems pretty simple, but someone more knowledgeable should probably make sure I didn't screw it up. —Keenan Pepper 19:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Swedish word

The word ehn appears to be a name or a title, I'm not sure which. Do you know what the word means in English?--Jelizbeth 17:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Eh, "ehn" surely isn't a Swedish word, name or title. It doesn't even follow Swedish phonotactics. Perhaps I could help you if you give the contextand further details. 惑乱 分からん 20:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur, I know no such word. I'm wondering if you are hearing the last syllable of a Swedish name such as Hugo Alfvén as a separate word? --ColinFine 22:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

In Dutch, "een" (you might spell the pronounciation "ehn") is an article meaning "a" (as in "a house") or "one". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ibn Battuta (talk • contribs) 08:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

Well, if it's assumed the word is misspelled, it could be the Swedish word "en" (generally short e) meaning the non-neuter gender article a/an / one, alternately with a long e, (a sound absent from native English), it'd mean juniper tree. That's the only common words in Swedish that sound similar. (Also, there are several personal pronouns looking similar to h?n*. he/she/him/her) 惑乱 分からん 16:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your many replies. The name/surename or word EHN comes from my personal geneaology as follows: Jonas Petterson Ehn b. 1793, his son Carl Jonsson Ehn, b. 10 March 1815, his daughter Matilda Maris Ehn b. 03 July 1851. Matilda came to America where her name Ehn must have been pronounced " Ain" as this is how it appears on her wedding certificate. Her brother Carl who also came to Iowa was called Ehn for a while but latter it appears as "Ain".

That seems to imply that Ehn is a surname. Some surnames mean something (Turner, Chandler, Wheelwright, etc), but most are just names that have no inherent meaning. JackofOz 04:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess it could be a surname, though not a particularly common one, also, it seems to have attained a German-like spelling here (where h is used to denote a long vowel), possibly because it looked fancier. "Juniper" might well be possible. I think most of these modern family names in Sweden actually appeared due to Sweden's military expansion, where the generals needed a way to distinguish between all former peasants Oskar's, Nils', Karl's and Johan's etc. in the army. They came from small villages where a family name hadn't been necessary. 惑乱 分からん 23:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

In looking at Parish records from the Latter Day Saints from the mid 1700's on there were few if any naming pattern that was not in the patronymic form. This of course extended to both the male and female children in a family group.

antique markings

I have recently aquired a wooden antique chest (probaly from europe) with two small symbols followed by the date 1694. The two symbols that precede the 1694 are approximatley 3/4 the size of the date. The first character looks like the roman numeral 1 with a faint triangle at the top and bottom (apex pointing to the middle of the character) and there is a horizontal dash(-) in the middle. The second character looks like an upside down symbol for the greek letter pi. I have poured through pages of latin letters,abbreviations, numerals,etc. and have not found an answer. I would like to draw the symbols for you but I can't with this modern keyboard. I woul apprreciate any help. THANKS!--72.24.49.253 17:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is the symbol PI ("π"), although I prefer a much curvier version. Obviously, I can't turn it upside down here, though. Isn't the Roman numeral 1 just the capital letter "I" ? Does it have bars on the top and bottom (I) ? StuRat 19:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The first character sounds like sme sort of measure symbol - perhaps indicating height, the second therfore might be a measure of capacity.. I say this because I've heard that old cannons appear to have a date on eg 1650 when in fact this number is the weight in pounds.. is it possible that 1694 refers to the dimensions then - perhaps 16 inches high?87.102.3.159 23:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I have two suggestions that probably won't help. One is, if you want to browse through still more pages of characters, you could check out the Unicode code charts. Each link from that table goes to a PDF document showing a group of related characters. Second idea, photograph the symbols digitally put the image on the Web somewhere (or upload it to Wikipedia temporarily, but you have to register to do that), and post a link to the image back here. Then at least it will be clear exactly what you mean. --Anonymous, December 16, 03:45 (UTC)

Or much easier: Simply draw the characters in OpenOffice Writer, Microsoft Word, some graphics program, or whatever you have available. And yet easier: "Draw" right here: e.g.

 XXXXX
  XXX
   X......V
   X     /
   X----/
   Xooo
   X     o_
  XXX      Y
 XXXXX

(tip: use "& n b s p ;" (without the blank spaces in-between) for every single space you want to insert. An alternative would be something like "."; and put a <br> at the end of each line. You may want to use "show preview" instead of "save page" first to check whether your design really looks as you want it... --Ibn Battuta 08:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

PATIENT - SHE or HE?

I have read in a Psychiatry Text Book the following sentences and am in doubt with regards to the pronouns used. Could it be just Psychiatry Terminology or in general "She" or "He" ca be used indistinctly for "Patient" (meaning both sexes as is the case now)?

- The "Patient" believes that "he" has special powers.

- Sometimes the person has has a comples system of delusions involving both a wide range of persecution and a belief that there is a well designed conspiracy behind "them"*: for example, that the "Patient's" house is bugged and that she is being followed.

• another question: shouldn't it be also "her" or "him" or any of them can be used?

Please, could anybody clarify everything to me? Thanks

It's always tricky using pronouns when you are talking about a person of unknown gender. "They" doesn't work in all cases, and "he/she" or "(s)he" is quite awkward, so many people just pick a gender and talk as if the person is of that gender. If most patients are male, they pick male, if most are female, they pick female. StuRat 19:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with StuRat. You will sometimes find, in the introduction of a book, a note which says something to the effect of "the author has used "he" throughout this book, but that does not mean anything does not apply to women as well". English does not have a gender-neutral pronoun which is easily used, so most authors pick one or the other and stick with it when the gender of the person being discussed is unclear or undefined. — QuantumEleven 10:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Journalism stylebooks recommend recasting the sentence to avoid gender-specific pronouns, if possible. (Of course, it isn't always possible!) Thus, instead of saying The patient believes that he has special powers, say Patients sometimes believe they have special powers. — Michael J 16:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Or just avoid the pronoun in the first place, i.e. A common belief is that patients have special powers. On second thought, Michael J 's version sounds better. Foxjwill 07:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

third son and sixth?

What does mean "the third son and sixth of nine children"? Why not just "third son of nine children"?

Bidder, George Parker (1806–1878), civil engineer, was born on 13 June 1806 in Moretonhampstead, Devon, the third son and sixth of nine children of William Bidder (1768–1844), a stonemason, and his wife, Elizabeth, née Parker (1769–1844). 128.36.56.209 18:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It means he had three older sisters.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 18:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It means he was the 3rd male child of 9 children and was also the 6th child of 9 children. So, yes, we could conclude that he has 3 older sisters, 2 older brothers, and 3 younger siblings of indeterminate gender. StuRat 19:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

..So the original wording would seem to be the most efficient way of saying that, even though the reader might have to think about it for a moment.--Shantavira 13:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

translation

I bought a shower curtain that says "ooh la la". What language is it and what does that mean?

Originally French, but borrowed into several other languages including English. I think it's strange that you haven't heard it before, but it means something like "Oh, yeah", "Wow!" "Sweet!" or similar... Is the shower curtain transparent, because it probably has sexual undertones? 惑乱 分からん 20:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You have a talking shower curtain? Wow. What'll they think of next!  :) JackofOz 05:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I heard they were going to come out with a singing one but focus groups didn't think getting shown-up by a shower curtain was a good way to start the day. -LambaJan 15:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Spacing in abbreviations

When typesetting abbreviations, I tend to set a thin space between in the middle of abbreviations as "i.e." or "e.g.". In LaTeX, I would write "foo ,i.\,e., bar". I have notices that other people either set no space at all or a standard inter-word spacing (a hard one). Is there a standard style recommendation? Simon A. 21:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe that no space is more standard. StuRat 06:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

No space is standard, but when typesetting a string of upper case letters, it is normal to increase the letter spacing slightly. (If you are using a "small cap" font to do this, you may find some additional spacing is already built into the font settings.) Also you may find when using camel case that a combination such as aT is not recognized as a kerning pair. In that case you might actually want to reduce the spacing slightly.--Shantavira 13:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)