Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 November 27

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November 27

Ksar Akil

It is an archaeological site in Lebenon. Is it pronounced as Qasr-e Aqil (قصر عقیل)? Please correct me. Omidinist (talk) 14:26, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It should indeed be Qaṣr ‘Aqīl. J. Tixier's French articles on the site from the 70's (and 80's) use the spelling Ksar ‘Aqil (and several other sources using the Ksar Akil spelling indicate the ﻉ). But for some reason the only trace in Google of "Qasr Aqil" is an entry in a geographic database for a Libyan site. (P.S. French Wikipedia gave the transliteration qṣar, but I'm pretty sure this is wrong (it reflects Maghrebi Arabic pronunciation),[1][2] so I've corrected it to qaṣr. Just in case someone would like to tell me I goofed; I also added the transliteration qaṣr to our English article ksar.) Wareh (talk) 20:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

A side note that although the Modern Standard Arabic pronunciation of قصر عقیل is [qɑṣr ʡæq^əi:l], the locals would likely pronounce it [ʔɑṣr ʡæʔ^əi:l], due to the q -> ʔ change in Levantine Arabic. Steewi (talk) 00:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

In Googling around I found the spelling كسار عقيل — maybe this is the usual spelling? (I don't really know Arabic.) --Cam (talk) 05:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I should add that I tried that spelling because there seem to be many place names in Lebanon with "Ksār" in the name, some even having a qāf in other parts of the name, e.g "Qal`at al Ksār". --Cam (talk) 05:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting. What is the history of this word كسار? Lebanese Arabic كسار < French < Algerian Arabic قصر seems kind of fanciful, so is there a better explanation? Wareh (talk) 04:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you all for your comments. Omidinist (talk) 07:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

"Surrendre" and "Se rendre"

There's clearly a connection between the Old and modern French words here, but my question is why. Everything I've seen indicates that the "sur" in surrendre is from the the Latin (and French) word for "over." However, "se" means "oneself." So even though the meaning and pronunciation are the same, if we break them down, we get "to hand over" and "to give oneself." Is the similar sound and spelling a coincidence, or is "over" in Old French the equivalent of making a pronomial/reflexive verb? (Murrende, turrendes, surrende) Basically, I'm asking if anyone can describe how it evolved from the Old French to the modern reflexive form. 24.208.253.57 (talk) 23:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the similarity in sound between the prefix sur- (from Latin super) and the pronoun se (from Latin sē) is pure coincidence. —Angr 23:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, we have "a. AF. surrender = OF. surrendre (13th c.), f. sur- SUR- + rendre to RENDER. The Anglo-L. equivalents were super-reddere (c 1400) and sursum reddere (13th c.)." AF=Anglo-French vs. OF=Old French. Note Anglo-French is derived mostly from Norman French, which has pronunciation a bit more English-like than Old French. Anglo-L. is Anglo-Latin (I believe associated speech would be from the noble classes). SamuelRiv (talk) 23:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation is not really the same: surrendre is [sy'ʀɑ̃dʀ] and se rendre is [sə'ʀɑ̃dʀ]. — Kpalion^(talk) 01:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Se rendre has a much wider meaning than surrender: that is surrender is only part of what se rendre may mean. Most familiar in English is the sense we see in "rendez-vous" that is, to turn up, show oneself at a place. There is also to render oneself (ridiculous, unbearable, useful). I'd agree with Angr that the similarity in sound to an English ear is a coincidence. As Kralion says, to the French ear they are quite distinct. SaundersW (talk) 09:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)