Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 January 20

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

January 20

Question: Idiom

"Have one's cake and eat it" is used in English to mean someone who is unacceptably greedy, but the phrase seems silly to me, as there is not much else a normal person would do with a cake if they had one. Has this expression evolved from an earlier expression? --ChokinBako (talk) 01:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

It's actually a reversal of to eat one's cake and have it, and does not describe greed so much as a desire to have two incompatible things: if you've eaten your cake you can't still have it. Like selling your car and still wanting ownership of it. Gwinva (talk) 02:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

See Have one's cake and eat it too.  --Lambiam 02:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Brilliant! Thanks! That cleared up a childhood question for me! --ChokinBako (talk) 05:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

mafia, how is it pronounced?

Like 'miafia'? the original syllable resembling a miaow? 59.91.254.10 (talk) 12:26, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The OED gives /ˈmafɪə/ or /ˈmɑːfɪə/ for UK and /ˈmɑfiə/ for the US. I don't know about the Sicilian pronunciation. 131.111.8.97 (talk) 14:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

However it may also be heard in parts of the US with the "short A" vowel as /ˈmæfiə/, which, due to the phenomenon of "æ-tensing" in the Mid-Atlantic region (stereotypically in Philadelphia), can be realised as /ˈmeəfiə/, a pronunciation that for other English speakers would be similar to that of "miaow". Thylacoleo (talk) 01:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

English grammar ...

"ain't no woman like the one I got".

I realize; the first two words contain; * poor grammar, * double negative. I do not know the rule dealing with ...I GOT. (rather than I HAVE.) Abi12 (talk) 15:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's poor grammar; it's perfectly grammatical for the non-standard dialect of English it's written in. In standard English it would be "There isn't any woman like the one I have."--Prosfilaes (talk) 15:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Haha, I *knew* people wouldn't let that slide. Ah, linguists... -Elmer Clark (talk) 21:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Or slightly more concisely, "There's no woman like the one I have". -- JackofOz (talk) 21:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Considering the title of the song is Ain't No Woman Like the One I've Got, I would guess that "there's no woman like the one I've got" would be a more accurate fix. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

But the "I've got" is not perfect formal English. It's widespread, but still something that pedants would shake their finger at.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

"I've got" is perfectly normal slightly informal American English (in the sense that all contractions are slightly informal), but I think would be unusual (at least) in the UK. There was a U.S. TV show called I've Got a Secret.

By the way, another closely related word, "gotten", is almost entirely gone from the UK vocabulary (except for "ill-gotten gains"), whereas a formal American English speaker might ask "How, precisely, would that information be gotten?". Question: anyone know if the word "gotten" is also still current in India? I suspect it is. Or elsewhere in the Commonwealth? I suspect mostly not, except perhaps Canada. - Jmabel | Talk 20:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Tocus

I know "Tocus" is not a real word,at least it's not in the dictionary, but it used to be a fairly common word, used I think to describe a person's back side. Any body know anything about this word? Thanks, WSC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.109.242 (talk) 17:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

See Yinglish: "Tuchas or tochis — buttocks (from Yiddish תּחת tokhes)." In my childhood, I used to hear Jewish moms say to their kids, "If you don't stop that, I'm going to potch [sp?] your tochis!" Deor (talk) 17:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see that potch is in the Yinglish article, too. Deor (talk) 18:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Tochus (various spellings) is in the OED also, defined as above, and designated as Jewish and North American slang. Gwinva (talk) 20:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Also in dictionary, "tush ³ |pr: toŏ sh | noun informal: a person's buttocks. Origin 1960s (as tushie): from Yiddish tokhes, from Hebrew taḥa t 'beneath.’ " I think it was an 90s slang possibly overtaken since by booty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Julia Rossi (talk • contribs) 01:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Hence a bad Latin/Yinglish pun in which "Pacem in terris" becomes "Potch 'em in tochis". - Jmabel | Talk 20:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)