Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 October 30

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October 30

How does Admiral Masorin's name translate and is it Ukrainian?

How does Admiral Masorin's name translate and is it Ukrainian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.210.114.164 (talk) 01:58, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as he's born far away from Ukraine and the article doesn't mention any Ukrainian heritage I would think it's not. Rimush (talk) 10:52, 30 October 2009 (UTC) Was it from Germany?

Pronunciation of Ernestine

In the book I am reading there is a woman called Ernestine. Now I'd like to know how to pronounce that name. In my dictionary I couldn't find it. I found the pronunciation of Caroline, of Katharine and of Josephine–but that did not help me, because, according to my dictionary, Caroline rhymes with fine, Katharine rhymes with in and Josephine rhymes with seen. If there are different pronunciations of Ernestine in different countries, I’d like to know the British pronunciation, because the story is set in England. -- Irene1949 (talk) 11:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd be very surprised if it were not pronounced er-nəst-EEN. (Although, I suppose if one pron of Augustine is ə-GUS-tən, then Ernestine could be er-NES-tən. No, probably not.) -- JackofOz (talk) 11:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

They're not the most scientific places, but the baby-name sites seem to agree that it rhymes with seen, though they differ on whether the primary stress is on the first or last syllable (apparently it's from German, which doesn't help too much). Does anyone know an authoritative baby-name site? --Lesleyhood (talk) 13:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinions.

In German, Ernestine rhymes with the English word cleaner–and, Lesleyhood, I agree that that doesn't help much. -- Irene1949 (talk) 14:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The only time I've ever heard the name "Ernestine" pronounced was one of Lily Tomlin's characterizations, and she said it the way JackofOz indicates in his first sentence, above - except Lily said ER-nest-een, emphasizing the first syllable, as with Caroline, C/Katherine, and Josephine. Caroline is often, but not always, rhymed with "line", as in "Brookline". Sometimes it rhymes with "lynn", as in "Brooklyn", as C/Katherine does. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

You're probably right about the stress. In school I had to read My Love Must Wait, a book by Ernestine Hill, and my teacher always called her something between ER-nest-een and er-nest-EEN. I guess what I was implicitly denying (not that anyone suggested it) is that it's pronounced er-nest-EYE-n. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

To determine the apparent discrepancy between the various ways to pronounce "-ine", it might be necessary to study the word origins. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I've met a person with this name. She pronounced it ER-nis-teen, rhyming with "seen" and with the same rhythm/stress pattern as Josephine. However, she's from the USA. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 23:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

My old Webster's (ca. 1960) says ER-nes-teen. It also has CAR-o-line or CAR-o-linn; KATH-er-in or KATH-rin; and JO-ze-pheen or jo-ze-PHEEN. The interesting part about the latter is the "z", since it's typically softened down to an "s". Hard telling why a mom would name her daughter Ernestine anyway, which is kind of a homely name; there are such better ones out there, like Britney, Courtney, etc. The "-ine" suffix is from French, and is shown with various pronunciations, so I think it has to be chalked as just another of those oddities about English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:19, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly ER-nes-teen in the UK at present but rarely encountered now. Alansplodge (talk) 02:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

It's one of those obsolete names, like Elmer, which probably ceased to be a popular name once Elmer Fudd became well-established. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:24, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

@ Baseball Bugs, you wrote: “Hard telling why a mom would name her daughter Ernestine anyway, which is kind of a homely name”–well, I think I can guess why the author of my book chose that name. I think that the title of the book–“The Importance of Being Ernestine”–is meant to be a parody on The Importance of Being Earnest , a comic play by Oscar Wilde. -- Irene1949 (talk) 16:37, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Some non-English names have their English exonyms and standards pronunciations. A good example is the names which have the ending ‘man’ in Europe (mostly in Germany) and in US. Because the letter ‘a’ does not represent the phoneme /a/ in English as in German language, the English exonym is /mæn/. I did not check the name origin, but it seems like such roots are neither of British nor of US English, other than the exonym /mæn/for ‘man’. I think, the names discussed above are just such analogy. Nevill Fernando (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:57, 31 October 2009 (UTC).

Thank you to all of you for your answers. -- Irene1949 (talk) 17:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

English - Meaning of "separatism"

This question isn't about other languajes but about english itself. It's not my native tongue, so some subtle details of it are unclear for me.

When I talk about a revolution of some centuries ago and/or the process that made a current country to get itself out from a larger empire and become a country on it's own, is it correct to denote such movement as "Separatism", or is that a loaded word? Does the word imply a taken position on whenever the process is considered legitimate or not, or is it a neutral one?. For example, the american war of independence and terrorist groups like ETA are completely different things, and from my perspective "separatism" sounds correct for the later but I'm not sure about the former. And if it is indeed a loaded word, wich other one should I use for denoting a process or intentions of gaining independence as a new country? I'm not sure about "Revolution" or "revolutionary" either, that sounds more correct being applied to a specific act than to long term things. But as I said, my knowledge of english is not complete. MBelgrano (talk) 12:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Separatism would be the right term. "Revolution" would be overthrow of the existing government. "Independence" typically pertains to a colony breaking away from the empire, so it's not quite the same thing as separatism or revolution, though it has some elements of both. The American Revolution was technically an independence movement, since it did not overthrow King George III in the process. The French Revolution was a revolution. Attempts to break Quebec away from Canada would be separatism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

There are the words Secession and Separatism (es:Secesión and es:Separatismo). The English articles appear to make the distinction that Separatism is the long-term movement and Secession is the goal or act. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:50, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

To add to the above, I believe separatism is neutral and general. The alternative not mentioned is nationalism: it implicitly refers to a "nation" (of which the Guardian style guide says "Do not use when you mean country or state: reserve nation to describe people united by language, culture and history so as to form a distinct group within a larger territory"[1]) however Nationalism as a concept or ideology is only about 200 years old so it might be straining to apply it to older movements.

The only objection to separatism is likely to come from people who feel it's too neutral (e.g. Americans will refer to the pro-independence faction in the Revolutionary War as patriots rather than separatists). --Lesleyhood (talk) 14:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The conflict of 1861-65 is still a tender subject among many Americans, so historically there's been debate over even what to call the conflict. See Naming the American Civil War. Southerners asserted a right to Secession whose existence Northerners denied. For many years, the official Northern name for the conflict was the War of the Rebellion, something that Southerners denied they had engaged in. Northerners also called it the War of, or for, the Union. Southerners preferred calling the struggle the War between the States, the War for Southern Independence or even the War of Northern Aggression (or Yankee Oppression), and disliked the term Civil War for what they considered its negative implications. Civil War is now the generally used term. "Southern separatism" might apply more generally to the sentiments, opinions and intellectual trend that led the Southern legislatures to enact Ordinances of Secession, and secessionism more specifically to the political movement that led there. Oddly enough, I think the War of Secession (or of the Secession, or for Secession) was used by partisans of both sides after 1865, but with rather different implications. [And I need to add the caveat that I'm using Southerner and Northerner here as loose substitutes for the partisans of the Confederate and Union causes, regardless of their geographical origins or identification.] —— Shakescene (talk) 20:28, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Quite a few southerners still call it "the war of northern aggression". War Between the States is a pretty neutral term, as it's unquestionably true. Lincoln called it a Civil War, and that's probably the most often used term for it. Milton Bradley once made a board game called "Battle Cry", and I have a vague recollection that it was originally called "Civil War", possibly changed due to P.C. Don't bet the family jewels on that, though. More research needed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:05, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

After WW1, President Woodrow Wilson used the term "national self-determination" for the same process you describe; with reference to the nationalities of the German and Habsberg Empires. You may find it a less emotive term and it has a good pedigree. Alansplodge (talk) 02:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Of course, as a historian and a Virginian by birth, Wilson was a sympathizer with the Lost Cause of Southern self-determination. The term has its own difficulties both ways: advocates of total independence see "self-determination" as a euphemism for continued political subordination, while those advocating a single uniform nationality (e.g. British, French, Spanish, Soviet, Chinese, Austro-Hungarian, American) always insist that everyone already has self-determination. But it really depends on the context whether "self-determination" is le mot juste; it might very well be the best neutral term in your particular case.—— Shakescene (talk) 21:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, this is off-track, so the complainers can "give it its independence" if they want, but since you bring up the "lost cause", I'm reminded of one of Rhett Butler's comments from Gone With the Wind, comparing the north and south: "They have factories, shipyards, coal mines, and a fleet to bottle up our harbor and starve us to death. All we have is cotton, slaves... and arrogance." While that may sound like a putdown of the south, it states a harsh reality - that in order to gain independence and win a war, it takes more than emotion; more than "believing". The northern army, initially at least, was managed by bunglers. (I once heard a history teacher say, "If Lincoln was such a great President, how come it took him 3 years to find General Grant?") But the north won in spite of itself, because it had the resources to outlast the south and to cut them off from external assistance. When it comes to separatism, independence, or whatever to call it, it's definitely important to "pick your battles". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Chinese Sentences Translation

These are Hakka Chinese sentences in IPA transcription. I don't know this IPA transcription. Can you somebody please convert these sentences into regular Chinese characters? 192.75.118.46 (talk) 16:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

[ a˦˦ mɔi˥˥ ɲja˦˦ mi˦˦ hi˥˥ tʰju˩˩ hi˦˦ tsɔn˧˩ lɔi˩˩ m˦˦ tsʰɛn˩˩ ]

[ kja˦˦ lau˧˩ tʰai˦˦ tsuk˧ tau˧˩ tsak˩ jɔŋ˩˩ jap˥ lɔi˩˩ kau˧˩ ]

[ hau˧˩ laŋ˦˦ ɔ˦˦, sui˧˩ tʰuŋ˧ kai˥˧ sui˧˩ kam˦˦ kʰɛn˩˩ pɛn˦˦ ɔ˦˦ ] Hmm... that's difficult for me. My first thought was that it was actually Hokkien because of the Amoy at the beginning, but then I saw that it's Hakka. Unfortunately I can't help. If it were Mandarin or Wu, I could give it a go, but my Hakka is near non-existant. Steewi (talk) 22:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I just want you to convert them into regular chinese characters. All Chinese use the same chinese characters whether they are simplified or classical. 192.75.118.46 (talk) 22:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Two pronunciation questions

How are the following pronounced?

• Calne
• Jbara

Thanks! +Angr 16:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

As for Jbara, watch this. Oda Mari (talk) 17:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the link! Calne I found in the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary too. +Angr 19:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Angr, what did the dictionary say? I'm curious. Marco polo (talk) 01:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

/kɑːn/, as in The Wrath of Calne. +Angr 08:43, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

As for Jbara, could there have been more than one option? HOOTmag (talk) 19:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Fwiw, Greg Jbara says his name in this video: (heard right after the Broadway.com music intro)71.228.199.230 (talk) 05:45, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Finnish auxiliary verbs

I'm fairly sure I have asked this already, but I don't remember when and where. I thought I'd ask it here anyway, because this is a topic I've thought a lot about.

Finnish has a good deal of auxiliary verbs. Here's a list of what I can come up with:

• ehtiä: have the time to
• haluta: want
• jaksaa: have the energy to
• osata: be able to (know how to, have the skill to)
• raaskia: have the heart to
• saada: be allowed to
• uskaltaa: dare
• viitsiä: be bothered to, be arsed to
• voida: be able to (in a physical sense, i.e. not to be prevented)

Can English express all of these in one word? I know Swedish can express almost all of them:

• ehtiä - hinna
• haluta - vilja
• jaksaa - orka
• saada - få
• uskaltaa - våga

But I don't know what raaskia or viitsiä is in Swedish, and AFAIK both osata and voida are kunna in Swedish. How to make the distinction? Are there any other languages that can express all these? Are there languages that have even more auxiliary verbs? JIP | Talk 20:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd say that in the appropriate context, English can can correspond to ehtiä ("I can't go shopping with you today, I have to work"), jaksaa ("I can't cook dinner tonight, I'm too exhausted"), osata ("Can you swim?"), raaskia ("I can't tell him how stupid he looks in that shirt"), saada ("You can't smoke in the restaurant"), and voida ("Can you get this door open?"). Haluta and uskaltaa you've already glossed with a single English word. That leaves only viitsiä as unexpressable by a single word in English. +Angr 20:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Viitsiä would most often be expressed as orka (whose literal meaning is closer to jaksaa), and context would determine the difference. A near-exact translation is idas, which is somewhat seldom used today. ("Jag ids inte" - "I can't be bothered") Both Swedish and English have a slight ways to distinguish osata and voida. "Jag kan inte"/"I can't" being the broadest sense of being unable to do something (for whatever reason), whereas "Jag förmår inte"/"I am unable" carries a somewhat more physical sense. But I think Angr is right that mostly it's inferred from context. --Pykk (talk) 13:22, 31 October 2009 (UTC)