Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 October 31

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October 31

idiom as a noun

Is there a name for an idiom used as a noun in English? For example, "cruel and unusual" (used as a noun, meaning torture), or "breaking and entering" (used as a noun, meaning burglary), or "tom-ah-to -- tom-ei-to" (used as a noun, meaning identity between two objects or categories)? --Dr Dima (talk) 00:06, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I think these are examples of metonymy, and some of them of synecdoche. --ColinFine (talk) 00:41, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard any of those used as nouns. Breaking and entering is mostly a legal term, sometimes used in ordinary contexts but usually with its normal meaning, not idiomatically. 69.228.171.150 (talk) 07:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Cruel and unusual is mainly an adjective, and refers not just to torture, but *any* punishment that is inhumane (including excessively-long prison sentences, certain death penalties (hanging comes to mind) and dismemberment. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Stop... at a WHAMMY!!)} 19:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Words ending in "-ing" are often used as a noun. The homophone "braking", for example. A bit off-track now - hanging, when done the correct way, is actually more humane than the electric chair. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Not murdering someone is even less inhumane. What a concept!--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 14:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Capital punishment is not murder. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Not legally, but morally it is. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 22:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

No, it isn't. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Enough already. Take it elsewhere, folks. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:24, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Russian dialects

Which Russian dialect is spoken in Kaliningrad Oblast? --88.77.244.107 (talk) 12:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Has it been Russian long enough to have a distinct dialect? Our Kaliningrad article says the Germans were expelled and replaced with Russians, so presumably they speak whatever dialect those Russians spoke, but we'd have to find out what dialect that was. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, modern Russian isn't really noted for having strongly distinct dialects. Asking 'which dialect' would imply a generally-recognized and well-defined set of dialects. I'm not sure there really is? It's at least not analogous to, say, German. --Pykk (talk) 02:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Various sources state that Kaliningrad was settled by Russians from different parts of Russia. According to this source, standard Russian is spoken there, with little trace of a regional dialect. This isn't surprising, since standard Russian would be the form that migrants from different parts of the country would have in common. Also, standard Russian is based on the central Russian dialect of Moscow, which is transitional between northern and southern dialects and thus comprehensible to people from all parts of Russia. Marco polo (talk) 02:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I saw that page too but it does say at the beginning "This work doesn't try, by any means, to give any kind of realistic picture of Kaliningrad, but a fiction created on one of the many myths that surround the city." (Still, other Google results also claim that they speak standard Russian.) Adam Bishop (talk) 03:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Proper Nouns

Hello. As a personal challenge I am looking for complicated proper nouns. Nouns that are uncommon and people are unsure if its a common noun and proper noun. For example, Xerox. Sadly, this is the only one I've found and I really could use some help. Thank You. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.85.1.189 (talk) 16:46, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

List of generic and genericized trademarks might help. These were all proper nouns on their introduction, but have since become commn nouns. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

There are also eponyms - words named after a person, many of which have such currency they are now considered common nouns (e.g., boycott, watt, diesel) - see Category:Lists of eponyms. Grutness...wha? 00:13, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

what is the meaning of this Chinese comment on my wiki entry?

I added a paragraph about James Legge to the wiki entry for "Huntly, Aberdeenshire", and a few days later received the following totally mysterious message in Chinese. Legge had a 50-year role in Chinese studies.... so perhaps this person is telling me something of interest? He is clearly referring me to the Chinese wiki... but other than that I have no idea as I do not read chinese. Can you tell me what the message says? thanks.....

from Peter2006son已经在2009年10月31日 (星期六)建立了Wikisource的 User talk:Maz59页面，请到http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User_talk:Maz59 查看当前修订版本。

这是新建页面。

编辑摘要： 歡迎用戶

联系此编辑者：

邮件：http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:%E7%94%B5%E9%82%AE%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7 /Peter2 006son

本站：http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User:Peter2006son

在您访问此页之前，将来的更改将不会向您发通知。您 也可以重设您所有监视页面的通知标记。

              Wikisource通知系统

-- 要改变您的监视列表设置，请访问 http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:%E7%9B%91%E8%A7%86%E5%88%97%E8%A1%A8/edit

反馈和进一步的帮助: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Help:%E7%9B%AE%E5%BD%95 maz59Maz59 (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I can't read Chinese, but did you happen to view a page on the Chinese wikipedia for the first time? You get a welcome message (to your e-mail, your Wikipedia talk page, or both) whenever you do that. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Google Translate came up with this:

from Peter2006son have been in 2009, 10 Yue 31 Ri (Xingqi Liu) established a Wikisource to User talk: Maz59 page, go to http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User_talk:Maz59 view the current revised version.

This is a new page.

Edit Summary: Welcome to the user

Contact the editor:

E-mail: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:电邮用户/Peter2006son

Site: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User:Peter2006son

When you visit this page before, the future changes will not give you notice. You can also reset all of your monitor notification page mark.

Wikisource Notification System

- To change your watchlist settings, visit http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:监视列表/edit

Feedback and further assistance: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Help:目录

Hope that helps. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

On 31 Oct 2009 Peter2006son has created the page "User talk:Maz59" on Wikisource. Please visit http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User_talk:Maz59 to view the current revision.

This is a newly created page.

Edit summary: welcome user

To contact this editor:

E-mail: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:电邮用户/Peter2006son

User page: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User:Peter2006son

We will not send you further notices until you visit this page. You can also reset your watchlist's notification settings.

Wikisource Notification System

-- To change your watchlist settings, please visit http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:监视列表/edit

For feedback and further assistance: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Help:目录

I must say the result from Google Translate isn't THAT bad... --antilived^{T | C | G} 22:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Pachakutiq, Pachacútec, Pachacuti

I'm giving thought to requesting a move for the Pachacuti article into what I consider a more-appropiate title of "Pachakutiq." Now, in the title I include the 3 most common names that this Inca emperor is commonly called. Pachakutiq is, technically, his real name as that is the Quechua form of writing and saying it. Pachacútec is the way that people refer to this person in Spanish, though I think I've seen some English publications that mention the emperor as "Pachacutec" (Same word, but without the accent). Lastly, "Pachacuti" is generally the term by which the Inca emperor is called in English. However, the problem I have with "Pachacuti" is that it really doesn't reflect the real name of the person in question. "Pachakutiq" is his real name (though it must be said that the Quechua writing system, as I'm sure most of you know, was not developed until more-recent centuries), and it sounds better than "Pachacuti" (which, if you really come to think of it, sounds quite silly). However, before I request the move, I would like to hear the more knowledgeable opinions from the Reference desk/Language group. Perhaps I am incorrect in my thoughts, and maybe it's just me who sees the name "Pachacuti" as incorrect and silly. As always, thanks in advance for the language help.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 19:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

In this context not really a linguistic question, but just one about Wikipedia style, which says: "For foreign names, phrases, and words generally, adopt the spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article, unless those spellings are idiosyncratic or obsolete." Does that help? --ColinFine (talk) 00:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

It sort of helps. I guessed it would be a linguistic question since it deals with what the better name is for a person in the English language. I'm not sure if "Pachacuti" would be an idiosyncratic term (according to the way I understood the definition, it does seem to be "idiosyncratic" or "peculiar"). What do you think, based on the definition of the word "idiosyncracy," is Pachacuti a peculiar term in comparisson to "Pachakutiq"?--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 12:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea, except that you said yourself that '"Pachacuti" is generally the term by which the Inca emperor is called in English'. It seems to me that this, taken together with the sentence I quoted above, quite clearly indicates that this is the appropriate name for the article in the English Wikipedia. It doesn't sound silly to me, since I have no knowledge of the different forms. --ColinFine (talk) 23:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. That last sentence in your statement is quite exactly what I needed to read. I am not a native English speaker, therefore I had no idea as to whether in English the word "Pachacuti" was awkward or not. There is no need for a change in the article's title. Thanks once again.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 00:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

"Sounding awkward" isn't an appropriate reason to change an article's title anyway. If it's the most commonly-used English term, it's the right name for the article. -Elmer Clark (talk) 01:05, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Based on the definition that ColinFine provided from the WP MoS, if the spelling of the foreign word is idiosyncratic or obsolete it can be an option to change it even if it is the most commonly used term in English. For me, the term "Pachacuti" sounded peculiar, or idiosyncratic, and as I mentioned in a post above I've seen the term "Pachacutec" (without the accent) being used in some publications. However, I wasn't sure if the term "Pachacuti" was peculiar only to me or if it was a peculiar term for English-speakers as well (since this is the English WP), but ColinFine cleared up that by stating that he didn't see the term as idiosyncratic (particularly because he had "no knowledge of the different forms," which would not be the case if he had learned the term not in English). Quite obviously, to Quechua or Spanish speakers the term "Pachacuti" would seem just as silly and idiosyncratic as to me, but this is neither the Spanish or Quechua WP.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 01:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)