Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 February 14

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February 14

A frightfully fascinating question

Words such as 'terribly', 'awfully' and 'frightfully' are negative on the face of it, but are often used (admittedly by a dwindling band of ageing speakers) as intensifiers for some positive quality - 'She's terribly smart', 'He's awfully attractive', 'It was a frightfully good show', etc.

Maybe I've also heard 'dreadfully' used this way. Sometimes we use 'nauseatingly' and 'irritatingly', but in those cases we actually are (pseudo-)nauseated or irritated.

But I can't say I've heard 'appallingly', 'shockingly', 'disgustingly', 'revoltingly', 'repulsively', 'grotesquely', 'odiously', 'perversely', or other negative words used this way. What's special about the first three? Is is just idiom (it is because it is)? Intensifier doesn't really go into this. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I think it is basically just idiom, but some hints of the process involved can be gleaned here. And remember, long ago awful meant "inspiring awe", so it's not really "negative on the face of it". I think shockingly and appallingly could be used with a positive adjective without being misunderstood ("shockingly well-done", "appallingly intelligent", etc.), but I can't think of any real-life examples offhand. Deor (talk) 09:12, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Hm. That's a wickedly good question. Awfully makes the most sense out of the bunch, because it means "inspiring awe". Something awesome is, therefore, awful. :/ – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 09:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Ivan the Terrible is known to history. Albert the Awful and Frederick the Frightful, not so much. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 09:29, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

As a native speaker of American English, I wonder whether others here would concur with my observation that this is largely if not strictly a British English usage. I can also attest to this usage in Israeli spoken Hebrew, very likely due to pre-State British influence (though before my time): e.g., Nanny to finicky preschooler: "Try these eggs; they're terribly delicious!" (ca. 1976, translation mine). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deborahjay (talk • contribs) 10:49, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

"Awfully good" is an American usage, at least among my (older) generation. "Terribly good" sounds a little familiar too. "Frightfully smart" is, I think, a case of metaphorical hyperbole, meaning "smart enough to frighten me that someone could be that smart" -- it doesn't literally frighten me, but it sort of mildly stuns me ("stunningly smart"). Duoduoduo (talk) 15:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I haven't tried all of those adverbs but I'm certain you'd find plenty of google hits for most of them - for example, a description of somebody as "hideously, grotesquely attractive". OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 15:02, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The 'OED' cites examples for 'awfully' as an intensifier going back to 1830, for 'terribly' to 1473 (though the first where it's used in a non-negative way is 1842), and for 'frightfully' to 1816 (with the first positive connotation dating to 1875). It suggests the Greek 'δεινῶς' in its definition of 'awfully' as an intensifier. Some of the other words Jack mentions get cited -- 'dreadfully' to 1616, 'shockingly' to 1777, 'appallingly' to 1937, &c. From personal experience as a native speaker of American English, I would disagree with Deborahjay's suggestion that the usage is strictly British, but will say that it sounds a trifle old-fashioned. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 15:28, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

@Jack, among producers of dubstep and similar urban/dance scenes, "disgusting" in the sense of "that bassline is fuckin' disgusting mate!" is a compliment. As are "sick", "ill", "dirty"... you get it. I once finished playing a set and a kid came up to me and said "those tunes you were playing were fuckin' 'orrible mate!" and I could only tell from the tone of his voice that he was complimenting me :D We can see from evidence that negative words often do get their meanings semantically inverted (not just in English too, cf French c'est formidable!) I wouldn't say there's anything special about those ones you listed except that they have and the others haven't. filelakeshoe (talk) 15:44, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't "bad" mean good in Black American English? Duoduoduo (talk) 17:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

It can do, and in MLE too, but not in all contexts. I guess the intended meaning relies on tone of voice. filelakeshoe (talk) 19:53, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

That's an interesting use of modal + "do" as a filler verb that never appears in American English -- we would always say "It can" or "It can mean that" but never "It can do". Duoduoduo (talk) 20:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

• You've not yet mentioned "mad" to mean "very". μηδείς (talk) 20:57, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Can you give an example of that, Medeis? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:04, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

It's used as an exact substitution for "very" (although usually stronger in effect), I've heard it since the late 80's, and here are some google hits where it's used with wicked, so I could be assured of getting relevant responses for you. Be aware that mad as "very" (see also "mad props", i.e., a lot of credit) seems to be of black east coast origin, while wicked seems originally to have been a white west coast thing. μηδείς (talk) 21:25, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

There are two non-overlapping and distinct uses of "wicked": The California English wicked, which is usually adjectival, and means "awesome" or "great", as in "That was a wicked wave, dude!", and the New England English wicked, which is always adverbial "He's a wicked cool kid!" The California usage sometimes has the adverbial sense, but the New England usage almost never has the adjectival sense. (i.e. something is never described as "wicked", wicked in New England is an intensifier of other adjectives). I'm pretty sure the two uses developed independently from one another. --Jayron32 23:26, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

And as to Medeis's use of mad, see Urban Dictionary, definitions 1, 2 and 3. --Jayron32 23:28, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

And Here is a reference for the adverbial Wicked in New England. --Jayron32 23:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I have to admit I have heard the NE wicked, just not in NYC, where you do occasionally hear the west coast wicked among whites of a certain age. μηδείς (talk) 23:39, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Somehow this mad makes me think of Tackleford. Yorkshire has an east coast; does West Yorkshire count as east coast? —Tamfang (talk) 06:29, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Terry Pratchett performs some wordplay that sort of twists postive-on-the-face-of-it words that same way. The background here is that the elves in his stories are very bad things, yet the words we use to describe them don't do justice: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/19190-elves-are-wonderful-they-provoke-wonder-elves-are-marvellous-they Mingmingla (talk) 01:47, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if, as an Australian, Jack is aware of the Deadly Awards, an "annual celebration of Australian Aborigine and Torres Strait Islander achievement in music, sport, entertainment and community"? When I began working with Aboriginal students, I quickly became aware that "deadly" was the ultimate form of "sick". HiLo48 (talk) 03:27, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh, most definitely. However, is it ever used adjectivally, as in "She's deadly smart" cf. "She's terribly/awfully smart"? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 04:16, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

"Dead lucky" is a pretty common term in British English. Less so perhaps in American English (but some Googling finds a NYTimes headline about Roswell P. Flower which uses it). In Scottish English (but not, I think, in Scots) "dead" can be a general superlative (not just for luck): "he's dead clever" or "his maw's dead fat". Better even than dead is "pure dead", as in "pure dead brilliant". -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 22:00, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

And "dead spit" is not a non-functioning device for cooking meat, or a gob of expired spittle, but an expression meaning someone who looks exactly the same as someone else. From "spit and image" (usually hypercorrected to "spitting image"). -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:52, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

In American English we do use "dead right", "dead wrong", and "dead on"; in each case "dead" means meaning "exactly". Duoduoduo (talk) 15:52, 16 February 2013 (UTC)