Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 September 18

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September 18

loneliness in social setting

We all know the state that loneliness describes. Being on your own doesn't always mean loneliness. But sometimes being with other people brings about a state of acute loneliness, worse than being on your own. This can happen when you have the company of people with whom you have nothing in common. I am thinking of the feeling that partners of Alzheimers's experience, or of parents of severely brain damaged children. Also, I think some mothers might experience this with small babies. There is a person there, indicated by the body, but it is like there is no person in the body to relate to.

The reason I ask is there is loneliness, and loneliness. And my personal view is that loneliness in an adult is usually easy to accommodate. But the loneliness-with-people experience is near to impossible to accommodate to and is excruciating.

It there a particular word/phrase/expression which describes the loneliness-with-people feeling? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.25.4.14 (talk) 08:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Social alienation? Isolation? - Karenjc 09:54, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

"Alone in a crowd." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:38, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

There is a difference between literal loneliness and the loneliness that one can feel when in the presence of others because part of the experience one can have, which we are loosely calling loneliness, when with others, is a product of the specific characteristics of those other people in whose presence we are experiencing the pseudo-loneliness that we are referring to. I would think that we are probably separated from the people in our presence by some factors that can vary by the situation. People out of our age range may trigger an experience of loneliness. Obviously not knowing anyone can make one feel separated from them. Loneliness when literally alone is different in that there are no outside causes coloring that sort of loneliness. Bus stop (talk) 14:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

What's like like?

In the sentence "What's the weather like over there?" is like a preposition or an adjective? I accept it's a preposition in She can bend it like Beckham, but that isn't quite the same as What's it like? or at least not quite. I am thinking that you could put a preposition or an adjective plus preposition here, as in What's it for? or What's it similar to? So in the last example, similar to is an adjective plus preposition, and like appears to fulfil the same role. So what's it really like? IBE (talk) 09:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

A stranded preposition? (The weather is like what?) See also trace (linguistics). ---Sluzzelin talk 09:34, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I kind of think you are right, although the key problem is that the question is idiomatic, in that you would rarely answer in that form. You wouldn't usually go "The weather is like New York weather." You just say that it's cold, or whatever - the word "like" rarely appears in the answer. This is why it sort of seems like an adjective, because we fill the place with an adjective. Compare A: "What does a lemur do?" "It sleeps a lot," so what..do is replaced by verb plus complement; and now B: "What is Paris like?" "It is cold," so what..like is replaced by an adjective. If do is a placeholder verb, one might think that like is a placeholder adjective. On the other hand, it could work as a placeholder for adjective + preposition + stuff, but this doesn't happen as often. "What's Paris like?" "It is similar to New York." Here, like is a placeholder for quite a bit of stuff. So I would love to believe it is just a preposition and be done with it, but if there is an absolutely definitive answer, I'll take that. IBE (talk) 09:49, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I observe that this construction is not limited to weather: What's it like in India? What is your new teacher like? What is calamari like? I don't think it's an adjective (eg you can't quantify it *How like is it in India?, though on its own that's a weak argument). I agree that it is syntactically a stranded preposition. --13:31, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Although a questioner may not be consciously aware of it, when they ask "What is [whatever] like?" they are asking the respondent for a comparison with something they know. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:10, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

No they aren't, or not necessarily. If they were, then an answer that wasn't in terms of a comparison (e.g. Fine.) would be deviant, but it isn't: it's usual. You're clearly right that that is the origin of the expression, but it is an idiom and its meaning has changed. --ColinFine (talk) 16:25, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

"Fine" is, in fact, a comparison. I don't disagree that "like" is overused colloquially:

"Like, what's the weather like there?"

"It's, like, fine."

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:22, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

im like, your right. like. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:46, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Another twist on this useful word is a story attributed to New York Mets play-by-play man Ralph Kiner, interviewing a Met named Choo-Choo Coleman back around 1962. "Choo-Choo, what's your wife's name, and what's she like?" "Her name is Mrs. Coleman, and she likes me, Ralph!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

"Slash my hooves"

What does that mean? Did Bruce Willis just come up with a new phrase? ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 15:00, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

It's very funny in Spanish, córtame las pezuñas :D Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 15:02, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Could you enlighten non-Spanish speakers please? Alansplodge (talk) 17:57, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand what do you want me to do? All I did was a translation from English to Spanish, so: Córtame las pezuñas means Slash my hooves. As far as I know. :D Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 18:03, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I just wanted to know why it's funny in Spanish. A double meaning perhaps, or does it just sound odd? Alansplodge (talk) 19:39, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

No double meaning, it sounds odd and funny. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 19:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

It sounds goofy enough just in English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:23, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Apologies for the misunderstanding. Alansplodge (talk) 21:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

No problem :) Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 15:29, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

To what real world event does this refer? Link, please. μηδείς (talk) 21:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

See Bruce Willis gives another awkward and cringing interview. Alansplodge (talk) 21:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

In context, it looks like a figure of speech, which means, "not go there" or "not do that." Literally, if one slashed his or others horse's hooves it disables (hobbles) the horse from going very far. Perhaps, one can look in horse husbandry or horse use/misuse (in time of war, to make an escape) for such an act. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Although nobody seems to be able to pin down any previous use for this phrase. Alansplodge (talk) 18:51, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

In which case, the answer to the OP's 2nd question may be "yes". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:16, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

"Remembered of"?

I was chatting online with a friend who started the conversation by sending me a youtube link of one of my favorite movies from childhood. This how our conversation went:

• Me: So what made you think of this movie?
• Friend: I was reading an article on "good but forgotten movies" and suddenly I remembered of this movie?

I am not a native English speaker and have never come across "remembered of (something)" before. Is it grammatically correct?

Such a gentleman 19:59, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

No, "remembered of (something)" is ungrammatical. "Remember" is usually a transitive verb -- "remember the Alamo." It can also be intransitive -- "Yes, I remember". It can act as a catenative verb - "remember to brush your teeth. My guess is that your friend was confusing "remember" with "remind". It is grammatically correct and common for a native speaker to say "I was reminded of that movie." SemanticMantis (talk) 20:14, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

That's called interfusion. I do it all the time. μηδείς (talk) 21:45, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

The only time that I can think of when that phrasing works(?) is, after a funeral, say, "It was remembered of him that he was a good man." Clarityfiend (talk) 03:19, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I do not agree that "Remembers of" is wrong. "Remembers of" shows a deeper recollection than simply "Remembers". E.g., "Looking at old photographs, my 90-year-old grandfather remembers of his youth". However, I agree that most of the time "of" is not needed or is wrong. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 09:42, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Speaking from the admittedly subjective viewpoint of a native BrE speaker in his 6th decade and a former professional textbook editor, Bonkers, I myself have never heard or read anyone use "remembers of" in the active voice and perceive it as simply wrong. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 13:11, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I myself do not use "remembers of" too, but my dusty Websters writes that remembers may be used with an of. Maybe Oxford is more superior, but I'd suppose "remembers of" is technically correct, just not common in usage. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

The "of" is not needed. "Reminded of" would work. "Remembered of" could be an archaic usage, or just slang, like the expression "off of". In a similar vein, the song that goes, "Give my regards to Broadway / Remember me to Herald Square..." Aside from that song, I don't think that usage would be used nowadays either. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

The "Remember me to..." construction is also found in Scarborough Fair (ballad)--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 02:28, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, a song much older than the Cohan song. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:41, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Those usages essentially mean "mention me to...", a usage from hundreds of years ago.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:44, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

There's also the expression "in remembrance of", which is valid usage, and maybe the writer was thinking of that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:43, 19 September 2013 (UTC)