Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 September 4

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September 4

Bengali language into different categories

I already know that Bengali language falls into the following categories: subject-object verb languages, and its script or alphabets falls into the Abugida writing system. What other categories does it fall into? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.16.15 (talk) 01:14, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Answerers can consult Category:Linguistic typology.—Wavelength (talk) 01:50, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

• It's a branch of the Indo-Aryan languages. Like most Indo-European languages it's fusional (rather than agglutinative or isolating) and most dialects are non-tonal. —Tamfang (talk) 04:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

"Heavenly Empire" or "Celestial Empire"?

Imperial China used to call itself "天朝", generally translated "Heavenly Empire" or "Celestial Empire".

In Chinese astrology, the North Star of Polaris is the center of northern sky. All stars rotate around it. The Polaris star is the Emperor who has a celestial city around him (the constellation). The Empire on Earth is created after the Celestial Empire.

I prefer to use the term "Heavenly Empire" instead of "Celestial Empire" because the latter is more likely to be the one high above.

It seems to me the word "heavenly" may refer to anything in the sky or closely related to the sky while the word "celetial" has a much stricter meaning.

When we say "celestial sphere" we don't say "heavenly sphere". One the other hand, "heavenly bodies" usually means "celestial bodies" or something else more pleasing to people ....

Which one is better? "Heavenly Empire" or "Celestial Empire"? -- Toytoy (talk) 01:46, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Which one do reliable sources use? --Jayron32 01:50, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

According to Google Translate, 天空 is heaven and sky. Japanese has a similar deal with 天, with a little "imperial" thrown in. Up is up, any works, depending on the connotations you want. Keep in mind, I'm the only Wikipedian with an official 0 in Japanese proficiency, so take me with a shio no tsubu. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:45, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

English Wikipedia's own Celestial also gives roughly equal weight to planets and angels (something has to go first). The final frontier, the great unknown, the big light in the sky; same glorious shit, different revered pile (which is not to be confused with a worshipped heap, since that creepeth upon the earth). InedibleHulk (talk) 02:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Also according to Google, 天上 is more the heavenly sort of "celestial", and 天空的 is the celestial spin on "heavenly". No clue, personally, but it's certainly been wrong (and right) before. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:25, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

In English, one has Germanic roots and one has Latinate roots. On balance, I think heaven (the Germanic one) tends to be used in religious and artistic settings, while celestial (the Latin one) is used in more physical/scientific settings. But note I said, "tends". Both words are definitely used in both settings. (In their adjective forms, per Toytoy above, I think that trend is stronger.) So per Jayron32 above, if RS give you a definite lead, take it and run. If they're also divided, you choose. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:05, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

'Celestial Empire' was often used in 19th and very early 20th century English-language sources. I have 'never' seen 'Heavenly Empire' to my recollection, and Google Ngrams confirms it. Matt's talk 21:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Is Arcedeckne of Anglo-Saxon origin?

After about 40 years of wondering, I've finally discovered that the English name Arcedeckne is pronounced "archdeacon". I read here that this is just another of those oddities of English spelling and pronunciation that one is simply expected to know - apparently without ever having been told - if one wishes to have a "claim to social recognition".

Well, while I contemplate my apparent social invisibility, can someone confirm my hunch that this is an Anglo-Saxon spelling that has somehow survived the winds of linguistic change that have been blowing hard over the British Isles for many centuries? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

It's more likely to be an (early) Middle English spelling—though the headword there has -deken, -de[c]kne is an obvious variant (click to see the illustrative quotations). The Old English word was the more Latinate arcediacon. (In most phonetic environments, "ce" was pronounced /tʃɛ/ in OE.)

In this context, I can't resist quoting an anecdote previously adduced by Alansplodge in this forum: "It is said that when Horatio Bottomley called on Lord Cholmondeley he was greeted at the door by a butler. 'I've come to see Lord Cholmondeley,' said Bottomley, pronouncing every syllable. 'Lord Chumley is not at home,' said the butler. 'Then would you please tell him Bumley called?' came the reply." Deor (talk) 07:34, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

So I'd love to know, is "Featherstone-Haugh" really pronounced "Fanshaw", as L. Neil Smith would have us believe? --Trovatore (talk) 02:09, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely true. That is, however, but one of its possible prons. "Fessonhay" is another. Anything except the way it's spelt. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:47, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Given that it's a vanishingly rare name in the first place, I don't think it's fair to expect anyone to 'just know' how it's pronounced. Also, the spelling is likely to have been deliberately preserved, or even changed back to an archaic form - names like that aren't an accident. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:16, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

It turns up on WP surprisingly often, despite its rareness. Many of these people are, of course, related. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

There is a place in either Los Angeles or San Francisco named Haight - Ashbury which is not pronounced the way it is spelt. Also (in Cowley, Oxford) Beauchamp ("Beecham") Place. In Oxford, of course, the prime example is Magdalen College (pronounced "Maudlin") whereas in Cambridge Magdalene College is pronounced the way it is written. Worcester College in Oxford ("Woosta") is not. There is differentiation between (The) Queen's College, Oxford (founded by one queen, probably Elizabeth I) and Queens' College, Cambridge (named after two or more). Oxford also has Beaumont Street, home of the famous Ashmolean Museum and Randolph Hotel (where I worked for a time, though not in either of those august institutions), but the pronunciation does not create difficulty. 80.42.79.88 (talk) 10:48, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying Haight-Ashbury is not like "Hate Ashbury"? How else would one say it? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:10, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that because I've never been there, but a local would know whether they say "Hate Ashbury" when referring to that place. You can't tell just by looking at a word how it will be pronounced - Melbourn (Derbyshire?) England may not be pronounced the same way as Melbourne, Victoria but again I've never been to either place. Looking at the link you provided I see a reference to it being called "Hashbury". 80.42.79.88 (talk) 11:38, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

That's just an abbreviation, like "Frisco" or "Orleans" or "Vegas".

You said "Haight-Ashbury ... is not pronounced the way it is spelt", which suggests you know exactly how it is pronounced. So, fess up. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:21, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, in some very literal sense I suppose it's not pronounced the way it's spelled, because you don't pronounce the g, but since no competent English reader would really expect you to, I guess it's a philosophical question. Put it this way, there is nothing in a San Franciscan's pronunciation of "Haight-Ashbury" that I would expect to be surprising anywyere in the Anglosphere.

The main variation is probably in how the "bury" part is pronounced. In California, this is generally a homophone of "berry", but in other parts of the country, the u might be pronounced as /ʊ/ or as some reduced vowel, or possibly elided entirely. --Trovatore (talk) 19:33, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, the difference is in expecting every written letter to be pronounced in one or two ways, OR (as most native English speakers instantly understand and recognize) that letter clusters have standardized pronounciations. For example, while the "g" in Haight-Ashbury isn't prounounced as "guh" or "juh", the cluster "ight" is a recognizable spelling (in words like right, fight, eight, etc) would recognize the -ght is just pronounced "t" and the "ai" vowel is pronounced "eh". Very intuitive for any native reader of English. --Jayron32 20:07, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Taking that convention into account, that leaves us with the position that Haight-Ashbury is, indeed pronounced exactly the way it is spelt. Sorry about that, Friend 80.42.79.88. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:33, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

• I lived in San Francisco for nine years without hearing "Hashbury" (unless from Hugh Daniel; he lived on Ashbury Street for a time, and liked to give nicknames to everything). Mostly it's "the Haight". —Tamfang (talk) 23:48, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Magdalene College, Cambridge is pronounced "maudlin", like its Oxford near-namesake. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:23, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Does "oh no!" mean the same thing in Japanese and English.

there's a famous scene in the anime Fist of the North Star where one of the bad guys realizes, when it's far too late, that his head is about to explode. And right before his head explodes, he says something in Japanese that sounds exactly like "oh no!" which the subtitles in English translate as "oh no".

thus my question. Does "oh no" mean "oh no" OR was it a bad translation AND/OR were the Japanese words actually something else (that sounds kind of like "oh no" but is not that exactly)?--Captain Breakfast (talk) 06:59, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Komban wa (in my timezone) Breakfast-kun! O-genki kai?

Short answer: Q: "Does "oh no!" mean the same thing in Japanese and English?" A: No.

Long answer: Ono (小野, Ono) and Ōno/Ohno (大野, Ōno) are Japanese family names, so "oh no" (or variants) does have a meaning in Japanese.

To the best of my knowledge there is no Japanese interjection that sounds like "oh no", and certainly no one that matches the English "oh no!"

Given the ubiquity of English loan-words in Japanese, I suspect that the character in this anime did in fact say "oh no!" in English and the subtitling reflected this.

That's just my opinion, よね. --Shirt58 (talk) 10:41, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Good point, thank you. Here is the clip in case you want to judge for yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUlFqL72iV0--Captain Breakfast (talk) 01:45, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I have not seen the film, but would guess that the character used the English 'Oh no!'. However, for an alternative explanation, one could surmise that he said ’おー、脳’ ("Oh, nou"), which means "Oh, [my] brain". — Preceding unsigned comment added by KageTora (talk • contribs)

That would be hilarious if that's actually what he was saying. this is the clip, for the curious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUlFqL72iV0--Captain Breakfast (talk) 01:45, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I haven't seen the movie, but I watched that clip. It is English "oh no!", and it's meant to be silly. "Zut alors!" might be a better "English" translation.

I don't think anyone would say just おー、脳 (ō, nō / "ooh, brain"). At a minimum you'd need a particle after nō (probably ga) to make it grammatical. -- BenRG (talk) 05:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I also suspect that censorship may have come into play here, and that phrase was substituted for something stronger. StuRat (talk) 02:20, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

It's the original Japanese audio. -- BenRG (talk) 05:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

What is bon-ton?

In an earlier inquiry above, I referenced an 1823 book called Slang: a Dictionary of the Turf, the Ring, the Chase, the Pit, of Bon-Ton and the Varieties of Life. Has anyone any idea what bon-ton is? Some sort of gambling game perhaps? Alansplodge (talk) 10:26, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Take your pick between an American department store, a play by David Garrick, and a chain of New Zealand brothels. I know which one I like. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:05, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

But seriously, I wonder if it isn't the aural counterpart of a bon mot. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 12:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

"Slang: a Dictionary of the Turf, the Ring, the Chase, the Pit, the Bon-Ton and the Varieties of Life" would suggest a phonetic "bonneteau" as you guessed. However, "Slang: a Dictionary of the Turf, the Ring, the Chase, the Pit, of Bon-Ton and the Varieties of Life'" suggests it is about "le bon ton" in "de bon ton", which means "suitable, distinguished". Akseli9 (talk) 12:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

WHAAAE: Ton (le bon ton) Rojomoke (talk) 12:18, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Aha! Well done. Perhaps I'll add a wikilink from the other articles if I get time later. Many thanks. Alansplodge (talk) 12:25, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Resolved

According to Bon Ton, bon ton is French for 'good taste'. Akld guy (talk) 12:32, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

While le bon ton is a recognizable and distinct phrase, I also wonder if it has some interference from les bons temps which would have almost the exact same pronunciation in French. See, for example, wikt:laissez les bons temps rouler. --Jayron32 15:16, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the vowel in ton ([tɔ̃]) is distinct from the vowel in temps ([tɑ̃]). Marco polo (talk) 18:14, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Not in my dialect it isn't (Cockney French) :-) Alansplodge (talk) 01:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

So that would probably be [ʔɔ̃], then? --Trovatore (talk) 02:03, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

"And Frenssh she spak ful faire and fetisly

After the scole of Stratford-atte-Bowe,

For Frenssh of Parys was to hir unknowe." --Shirt58 (talk) 05:59, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Well done User:Shirt58; The Prioress's Tale unless I'm mistaken. Unaccountably, Parisians seem to be quite unable to decipher my French accent and I struggle with theirs too.

User:Trovatore, initial consonants are never glottally stopped in the Cockney accent, otherwise nobody would understand us! Alansplodge (talk) 15:26, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

In French, if you seek a bonbon,

Make sure you apply le bon ton:

"Madame" or "Monsieur",

And speak with a purr,

So that everything sounds ronronron

"Camille Saint-Saëns was wracked with pains

When people addressed him as Saint Sains" --Shirt58 (talk) 11:30, 6 September 2015 (UTC)