Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 January 23

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January 23

Finding family in Czechoslouakia

Hello all of you Volunteers, I just read the site on Czehoslovakia and it was just full of information, plus the Bryndzove Halusky that she and my mother use to make and I do to this day YUM. My Grandmother Anna Stefkovich born in 1884 and Grandfather Anton Adreansky born in 1881 some where in Czeholovakia. Married and came to New Jerseyin 1908. I would like to know who I can contact to see if I can get anymore information on where they lived and about there families. I tried Ancestry.com but just can not afford that kind of money. I have been trying find something on them for years. I have been told that all records of the people that lived there in the 1800 have been distroy. There must be something about them somewhere or someone that can steer me in the right direction or who I can call or e-mail for help. I live in Alaska, am a old lady and not rich. I wish I was there so I could do the work. Thanking you in advance Patti Alix — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pepalaska (talk • contribs) 06:57, 23 January 2011 (UTC) Edited to improve readability. Royor (talk) 07:03, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi there -- Many libraries have Ancestry.com subscriptions, so you should check to see if your local library has it on its computers. If you do a Google search for Slovak genealogy, you'll find plenty of organizations that can help you with your search. The food you mentioned is Slovak, so I'm guessing your family came from Slovakia. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 07:52, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

This site has some contact information for Slovak ancestry research. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 11:33, 23 January 2011 (UTC) PS: Living half an hour away from Bratislava I could also walk across the border and ask a few people:)

Maybe not exactly what you are seeking, but is it possible they entered the USA through Ellis Island? If so, then this site might let you search for their records there. Those records might include the names of other family members and their place of origin. Astronaut (talk) 19:59, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

One other piece of information that you may find helpful is this: At the time that your ancestors came to the United States, Slovakia was considered part of Hungary, which in turn was part of Austria-Hungary. So when you look for a country of origin, you will probably need to look for Hungary or Austria-Hungary. Also, some of the records you seek might be in Hungary today (though regional records should have stayed in what became Slovakia). Marco polo (talk) 19:20, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Porn

Are porn actors considered legitimate actors and are porn films considered legitimate topics of discussion on forums dedicated to discussing "television and film"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.113.119.4 (talk) 10:49, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

That would depend entirely on which forum you're asking about. Did you have one in mind? 90.193.232.5 (talk) 11:09, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Werner Herzog often mentions porn when discussing film in general. He's about as legitimate and respectable as it gets in the film world. See here (middle page 239) for a bit of his opinions on the matter. Staecker (talk) 14:04, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Each forum is going to have its own codes of conduct and social norms. You really need to ask your question to members of the forum you're thinking of. Kingturtle = (talk) 14:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Note the type of discussion might make a difference. Depending on the forum, talking about the cinematography or the Foley of a porno may be one thing (except if you're complaining about poor quality - no one is is surprised by a poor quality porno), but discussions along the lines of "did you see the size of that thing!" would be another. -- 174.31.216.144 (talk) 19:03, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article about Adult Video News awards with a discussion page where it would be hard not to speak about porn films and actors. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:51, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Many consider porn actors to be "whores", because they perform sex acts for money. By contrast, if they built wagons for money, they would be considered "wainwrights." If they made wagon wheels they would be considered "wheelwrights." If the worked metal in a forge they would be considered "smiths." If they made shoes, they would be considered "cobblers." (If the shoe fits, wear it.) [User:Edison|Edison]] (talk) 05:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we should call them "sexwrights". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 08:33, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I once worked with a guy whose name was Dick Wright. HiLo48 (talk) 09:08, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Porn "actors" sound like "whores," that is folks who perform sex acts for money. Edison (talk) 03:51, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Looking for a book by Beverley La Haye (article in Wikipedia but link not working)

A few years ago I read a book of Beverley La Haye which I cannot find at all. It was one of the best books and I really Want to obtain this book. It was called: “How to develop your childs temperament” by Beverley La Haye. This book features in your article on Beverley La Haye, but the link does not want to work.

Please could you assist me with contact detail since I can't find contact detail on these authors on the internet I would appreciate assistance in obtaining this book.

kind regards, Elvira —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.2.126.173 (talk) 16:39, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Umm, try amazon and its Used & new section? --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:42, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

...or (for the UK) here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:48, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's a link to Worldcat using the OCLC number: 3312367 ; by clicking on that link you will retrieve a list of 155 libraries who have this book. If you enter your location, the list of libraries holding this book will be sorted with those closest to you at the top. For finding copies in bookstores (including Amazon), LibraryThing has some pretty neat utilities and links also. I've gone ahead and put the OCLC number link on the Beverly LaHaye page also. --Quartermaster (talk) 18:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Digital wall clock with analogue face?

I would like to have a wall clock that was digital, but still showed the time as an old-fashioned round analogue clock face with the hands and stuff, not with numbers. Do these things exist? JIP | Talk 17:46, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Sure. The innards of almost all new clocks are digital these days — you'll likely find mechanical escapements only in overpriced wristwatches. The one in my kitchen id from LaCrosse Technology, syncs itself to WWVB, and cost, I think, $8.95 at Fry's. PhGustaf (talk) 17:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

What about clocks that don't use actual hands but a LCD display forming the image of an old-fashioned analogue clock face? Do these things exist? JIP | Talk 18:23, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Oddly, this seems like not something there are a lot of, though the idea is simple enough. I've found this, though, which tells one how to make one from parts. Kind of a neat project. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:52, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I also found this, which simulates an old-fashioned analogue clock with one of those fancy moving LED stick thingies. But it still has a moving part. I would prefer a clock that looks like an analogue clock but doesn't actually use any moving parts. JIP | Talk 18:55, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

There are a bunch of DYI projects that I've found while searching for "digital analog clock" and "analog LED clock". But I didn't see any dedicated products for sale. Also, for the reverse approach (a clock that looks digital but is really analog), this is pretty cool! --Mr.98 (talk) 18:55, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I don't understand what you are talking about. The difference of digital clock and analogue clock is time display methods. See this. JIP, you mean a quartz clock with a clock face, don't you? But I recommend you a radio clock with a clock face. It's the most accurate clock. Oda Mari (talk) 19:35, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

No, that's not what I meant. My original question was poorly phrased. When I said "digital" I should have said "LCD". I want a clock that I can hang on my wall, that looks like a traditional analogue clock, but doesn't actually use any physically moving objects as hands, but instead liquid crystals or LEDs that turn on or off. The internal workings are irrelevant to this definition. JIP | Talk 19:39, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I see. I should have read the comments above more carefully. I hope you could find what you want. Good luck! Oda Mari (talk) 19:46, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I've seen watches and small clocks with LCD simulated pointers, but not large clocks. The only reason that they might be rare is the cost of the large LCD display, so the price will be several times that of the equivalent clock with pointers that move. I would regard all clock mechanisms as digital, since mechanical clockwork escapements and electronic tuned circuits both provide a discrete count which is then displayed in either analogue or digital format. Even the synchronous motors of older mains clocks relied on the count of cycles at the generator. This is just my viewpoint, and is not relevant to the question. Dbfirs 20:34, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

If you are looking at an LCD screen of a laptop running Windows then you already have a little analog clock display when you click on the time at bottom right. Supplementary question: is there an analog clock whose hands move at truly constant speed? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:02, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Good point about the Windows clock! Answer to supplementary question is, I think, "no" except for old-style mains synchronous motors where the rotation is directly geared to the pointers to give a smooth movement without any jerks such as the ones that occur in clockwork and electronic movements. I suppose it is a matter of opinion (and definition) whether the fact that the timekeeping is controlled by counting mains cycles (and keeping the average to exactly 50 or 60 per second) makes the control "digital". Dbfirs 19:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I rule out clocks that are driven by a synchronous motor because it would need an infinitely massive flywheel to smooth out the 50 or 60Hz jerks. I suspect that the only way to get a constant movement is by a float on a water clock that is driven by a laminar stream instead of drops of water. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:34, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

The synchronous motor is not driven by "jerks" in the same way that a quartz clock is, but the speed is controlled by the generators at the power stations. An infinitely massive flywheel could not be synchronous. Dbfirs 20:46, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I would imagine that the reason for this comment was to state that a big LCD screen is possible, and cost-efficient, to implement. It also gives me a solution of making a laptop computer constantly display an application that looks like an analogue clock and hanging it on the wall, but I'd rather avoid that solution. I'd much rather keep the solution to mostly just the display alone. A laptop computer has many extra parts, which consume power and make noise. The main reason why I want this LCD wall clock is that it would be almost completely silent. Also, I'd imagine a laptop computer costs much more than this LCD wall clock, and so I'd be underusing it. JIP | Talk 20:32, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Possible, yes, but cost-efficient, no, for exactly the reasons that you state. Analogue displays are a tiny fraction of the cost. Dbfirs 08:03, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

The LCD screen of a laptop computer consists of about a million teeny-tiny crystals. But this LCD clock doesn't have to have that, but instead 72 big crystals (12 for the hour hand and 60 for the minute hand). We have had LCD displays with specifically-shaped crystals instead of a universally versatile matrix of crystals for many decades now, so such a thing shouldn't be much of a problem. The only problem I can see is the large size of the clock face. JIP | Talk 18:17, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there's no problem in producing these displays, it's just a matter of scaling up the watch displays that used to be available, but the fact that there is little demand (you seem to be in a minority) means that the cost will be greater than most people are willing to pay. Dbfirs 20:57, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

There's the "Bulbdial" kit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by APL (talk • contribs) 15:47, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

question

What goes "hut-hut-huuussss"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Great Green Gourd (talk • contribs) 18:51, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Apparently the answer is "The Clow-Clow". I think it's safe to say that few of us are in on the joke. Still. Thanks for sharing. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:55, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

May we have a h-h-hint? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:35, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

A variation on this same trolling question appeared on one of the other ref desks. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:29, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The Germans' fear of the "cold steel"

People of my parents' generation, when talking about World Wars I and II, still often refer to the Germans' fear of being bayoneted. They were said to be terrified of the "cold steel" piercing their nordic bodies. I can sort of accept that at face value. I mean, I wouldn't particularly care for a cold steel blade to be thrust into my austral body and I can't think of any human or group of humans who would be more or less OK about it.

But it's always spoken as being more particularly true of German soldiers than anyone else (I never heard it being said of the Italians or the Japanese, for example; only the Germans). By implication, they were a bunch of lily-livered cowards, while our boys were real men who welcomed being blown up, shot or stabbed to death for king and country.

I'm assuming this was just a form of wartime anti-German propaganda that took on a life of its own and continues to the present day. Is it well attested? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:10, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Interesting footnote here to the first attested use of the phrase, Walter Scott's, Old Mortality. It seems plausible, devilish enemies in league with pure evil can seem to dodge bullets but the sneaky blighters can't dodge a sword. I expect it was merely that Germans were the enemy of the day, not sure why it wasn't applied to others, perhaps regarded as beneath contempt and such a noble death. "They don't like it up 'em!" was the favourite phrase of this character, referring to the germans but still fighting older enemies. meltBanana 20:36, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh thank you for refreshing my memory of the exact phrase. As soon as I saw the topic I remembered Corporal Jones. It was from him that I first learnt about this alleged German phobia. I knew his best words were a little more evocative than simply not liking cold steel, but couldn't recall exactly what they were. HiLo48 (talk) 23:11, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Might have to get around to reading Old Mortality. The thing that struck me is, though I haven't figured out which side I would have more sympathy with, I note that John Balfour of Burley seems a bit challenged in the department of counting:

"In one word, then," answered the spokesman, "we are here with our swords on our thighs, as men that watch in the night. We will take one part and portion together, as brethren in righteousness. Whosoever assails us in our good cause, his blood be on his own head. So return to them that sent thee, and God give them and thee a sight of the evil of your ways!"

--Trovatore (talk) 21:07, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

There is something both biblical and phallic about a man having a sword on his thigh. Sol 3:8 every man [hath] his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Ex. 32:27 Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh... Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:52, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

A search for fear cold steel at Google Books turns up more references to trolls, trows and suchlike than to Germans. --Antiquary (talk) 22:05, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Nobody likes the idea of being bayoneted — it's been noted (in On Killing, at least) that in general, nobody really likes to use a bayonet either. Some huge percentage of bayonet charges end with one side fleeing and nobody actually getting stabbed with the things, if I recall from the book. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:05, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Was there, perhaps, some connection with the Niebelungen myth? Not on a good computer at the moment so can't do much searching - if someone else can help me out I'd be grateful.--TammyMoet (talk) 21:29, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Can't remember or find any connection, Tammy, unless you're thinking of Tolkien's "By the forging of Gram cold iron was revealed"? (From "On Fairy-Stories"). --Antiquary (talk) 22:36, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

As for those who don't mind cold steel penetrating their bodies, there is the ancient tradition of Seppuku (hara kiri). (As opposed to English gentlemen who, having been discovered cheating at cards, were exhorted to "do the decent thing" and given a revolver by fellow officer types.)

Saki, or rather one of his debonair young characters, thought cold steel an honourable way to die. This is from "The Unrest-Cure", in which Clovis has taken it upon himself to stimulate the lives of some hapless middle-aged strangers called the Huddles. He pretends to be confidential secretary to a visiting bishop whom he invents out of whole cloth, hiding him in the library so that none of the household realise that there is no such person. He then informs his unwilling hosts that the bishop is actually in the village "to massacre every Jew in the neighbourhood." (This is in the Edwardian summer of rural England, far from Russian pogroms and entirely unaware of the Holocaust.)

Clovis hastened downstairs, and after a short visit to the library returned with another message:

"The Bishop is sorry to hear that Miss Huddle has a headache. He is issuing orders that as far as possible no firearms shall be used near the house; any killing that is necessary on the premises will be done with cold steel. The Bishop does not see why a man should not be a gentleman as well as a Christian."

I'm sure I would have found H H Munro insufferable in person, but there is no writer like Saki. He was very anti-Hun, as they phrased it, and wrote a novel of invasion literature; there is no steel in When William Came, and the only cold things are asparagus and goblets of hock. (What did we do before full-text search?) Pity Munro died by a sniper's bullet in WWI trenches.

BrainyBabe (talk) 21:40, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

This is slightly off-topic, but I remember a passage in All Quiet on the Western Front suggesting the reverse, sort of: A fear and hatred for the particularly "German" version of bayonets with a serrated edge. The passage describes how German soldiers tryi to modify that particular form of bayonet, because of the enemy's horrible punishment rumoured to befall any German soldier found with a serrated bayonet. The soldiers' corpses were found with their noses cut off and their eyes gouged by their own bayonet. Their gaping wounds had been filled with sawdust in order to asphyxiate them. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Called a Pionier-fasschinenmesser designed to cut sticks for Fascines - an element of field fortifications[1]. Originally only issued to German pioneer companies. Alansplodge (talk) 18:47, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

AQOTWF was fiction. The above was a rumour/propaganda repeated by a character in a novel - so not very reliable. 92.24.185.2 (talk) 00:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

One of the characters in the comedy series Dad's Army - which I never cared for - supposedly a veteran of WWI, would endlessly repeat the catch phrase "They don't like it up 'em" at the slightest provocation, while miming thrusting a bayonet. So that may have been the origin of that. In reality, I've read Good-Bye to All That and a compendium of accounts of WW1, and I do not recall anything about Germans fearing cold steel. 92.24.185.2 (talk) 00:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

A little reading of what others have posted may have saved you that post. Corporal Jones has already been mentioned, in the second post of the thread, right after mention of the idea first being used in Walter Scott's, Old Mortality which was published in 1816. HiLo48 (talk) 00:50, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Why bother to tell me, at length, and in deatil? 92.24.185.2 (talk) 00:53, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't address Jack's specific question about Germans, but I found this article quite interesting (ignoring the typos), particularly the second half, which looks at the psychological effect of the bayonet. It notes the reference in On Killing that Mr.98 cites, and generally concludes that "He who has not made up his mind to come at last to the bayonet can never win, for he can have no serious intention to assault". If you wish to characterise your enemy as inferior, and you regard a willingness to engage in close-quarters fighting with the bayonet as the acid test of a soldier's courage, it makes sense to suggest that he has a constitutional unwillingness to do so. Karenjc 10:20, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Ha! Found it in the "Nibelungenlied" article: "...killing Siegfried with a spear as he is drinking from a brook in chapter 16. This perfidious murder is particularly dishonorable in medieval thought, as throwing a javelin is the manner in which one might slaughter a wild beast, not a knight. We see this in other literature of the period, such as with Parsifal's unwittingly dishonorable crime of combatting and slaying knights with a javelin (transformed into a swan in Wagner's opera)..." A bayonet is just a spear attached to a gun. I think this is what I was thinking of, and certainly sounds plausible as a source for the modern Germans and bayonets myth. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:26, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Wow! I never expected to see the Nibelungenlied and Wagner operas in the same thread as Dad's Army, Walter Scott and Saki. I wasn't remotely expecting any of those, actually. Thanks for all the great cultural refs, dearly beloved co-editors. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:14, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Ack, I knew Tammy's Wagnerian spear-murder reminded me of something, and I couldn't place it. Sorry Jack, I think you were drawing a line under this one, but can I just add the Arthurian legends to the mix, in particular the First Continuation of Chrétien's Perceval? Gawain is escorting a strange knight under safe-conduct when an unseen someone (probably the recently humiliated Kay) lobs a javelin at the stranger and kills him. I recall being taught that this was disastrous not only because the stranger was under Gawain's protection, and because the killing was anonymous, but because death by javelin is inherently shameful. A knight fighting an enemy with hand-held weapons must come within reach of his opponent and risk his own life in turn, which gives honour to both parties. On the other hand, chucking a spear at him makes you into a cad, since you have denied him an honourable death (and are a rotten coward to boot). This would appear to contradict Tammy in some ways, since a distinction is made between a hand-held spear and a thrown one. But it's plausible that there's a link there somewhere. Karenjc 19:50, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Karen. (Let me never be accused of drawing lines under things. If there is more to say, let it be said, is my philosophy.) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:00, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, since you've un-drawn the line, I thought I'd say that I don't really get the argument above, about javelin cowardly vs sword brave. I understand that slaying an enemy from a distance by hurling something, or attacking him from behind, is perceived to be less manly than confronting him face to face with roughly equivalent weapons, i.e. an equal chance of getting hurt oneself. But surely bayonets are thrust from very near in? They are not thrown. If anything, it is the bullet that more closely resembles a javelin, in this regard, as being the distance projectile. Or am I missing something? BrainyBabe (talk) 11:29, 25 January 2011 (UTC) PS I've just come across, linked from Edith Cavell, British propaganda poster from 1918, depicting a German soldier bayoneting a baby. Charming. BrainyBabe (talk) 11:45, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, Siegfried (if true) implies that dying like a stuck pig on a spear is inherently dishonourable; Gawain (if true) that this may be so, but the shame is in the separation between killer and killee. (A) supports Tammy's suggestion of a genuine Teutonic distaste for dying a squalid, unknightly death on a spike. (B) would endorse Jack's British propaganda assumption: if hand-to-hand fighting equals heroism, courage and honour, you spread the story that you're up for it any time, but your opponent is a coward who daren't get close enough to taste your (hand-held) cold steel. The original question really intrigued me, and I'm sad we haven't found an authoritative answer and probably never will. Propaganda is slippery stuff. I see what you mean about that poster, by the way. Eugh. Karenjc 14:21, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

But bayonets are hand-held. Aren't they? (Not having been trained in hand-to-hand combat myself.) And in the old days of mythology, spears would have been tipped not with steel of any temper or temperature, but iron or bronze, surely? Puzzledly, BrainyBabe (talk) 22:58, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

In my research of 19th century surgery, I found a US Civil War surgeon (the exact book reference is not readily at hand) who said that bayonet wounds to the abdomen were rarely fatal. The bayonet was not very sharp, and penetrated the front of the abdomen, but pushed the intestines aside, rather than severing or penetrating them. Even without antibiotics or any notion of aseptic surgery, most victims of a bayonet to the abdomen survived in that war. By contrast, he said that a man cut or stabbed in the abdomen with a very sharp Bowie knife invariably died of peritonitis due to the cutting into the intestine and the release of intestinal contents into the abdomen. Edison (talk) 05:34, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Sugar "free"

Why don't you sell SUGAR FREE hot Chocolate mix...... NO sugar added has about 8 grains of sugar in it. Dibetitics can't have it.

Every hot chocolate mix has gone that way. Your hurting people., because most don't read the labels.

Thank You, <email redacted> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.42.14 (talk) 23:38, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our over 6 million articles and thought we were affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is for asking questions related to using or contributing to Wikipedia itself. Thus, we have no special knowledge about the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the upper right side of your screen. If you cannot find what you are looking for, we have a reference desk, divided into various subject areas, where asking knowledge questions is welcome. Best of luck. --Jayron32 23:40, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

This is, in fact, that reference desk. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 00:13, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe we need an RD version of {{astray}}. The person obviously doesn't know this is the Wikipedia reference desk, unless Wikipedia really does market a Wikipedia-brand Sugar Free Cocoa Mix. --Jayron32 00:17, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

This search finds plenty of sources of chocolate for diabetics. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Don't you order all your hot chocolate mix from the Wikipedia webstore? Edison (talk) 02:59, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I have a standing order. They all wind up in my Wikipedia all-purpose cup and get eaten using OpenSpoon. --Ouro (blah blah) 07:39, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

The latest edition of which only has four holes, but at least it's free, dammit! Matt Deres (talk) 13:51, 25 January 2011 (UTC)