Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 September 27

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September 27

Tipping your server (US only)

Along the lines of the tipping question above, I read the Tip (gratuity) article and found it quite interesting. In the article under "Unites States" it mentions that sometimes dissatisfied customers may leave a penny tip. Is this kind of thing common? Also, just say you were cheap - what's to stop you not tipping *at all*? What's the worst that can happen? Can they refuse to serve you next time you come in?? I have some really cheap friends and I can't imagine much would force them to tip! BTW I live in Australia, where tipping in restaurants does happen but nowhere to the extent it occurs in the states. 121.44.156.164 (talk) 13:18, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Leaving a penny as a tip in the United States would be more insulting, in my opinion, than leaving nothing at all. Leaving nothing at all is, already, a pretty strong signal of displeasure. Leaving a penny suggests a kind of extreme condescension in addition to displeasure. There is nothing to stop a person in the United States from leaving no tip. If that person is an obvious foreigner, the waitstaff, while unhappy about the lack of a tip, might recognize that tipping works differently in other countries and might therefore forgive the non-tipper. That said, if the foreign non-tipper ever returned to the premises, they would probably get very slow and unenthusiastic service. However, if a person with an American accent leaves no tip, he or she would be well advised never to return to the premises (or at least not before the waitstaff are likely to have forgotten the non-tip). Leaving no tip, or a penny tip, is a kind of breach of an unwritten contract. If the non-tipper returned and was recognized, he or she might face a hostile attitude, might expect that saliva would be added to his or her food before it was served, and so on. An American would normally leave no tip, or a penny tip, only if he or she was so offended and dissatisfied that he or she never expected to return. A less drastic way of expressing displeasure would be to leave a meager tip: say, a little less than 10% of the pre-tax bill. Marco polo (talk) 13:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

If "saliva would be added to … food " let us hope that there would be legal repercussions if that were seen by someone else and reported to appropriate authorities. I don't believe tipping has risen to the level of that which is mandatory but standards of hygiene, not to mention standards of treating others with dignity, are expected to be maintained even if a "tip" is not received. There are two sides to this story. Employees should be paid by their employer. "Tips" may or may not be considered a part of an employee's remuneration depending on a variety of ill-defined factors. The expectation of a "tip" can carry with it its own set of obnoxious attitudes on the part of employees—so I'm not entirely sympathetic with the poor downtrodden worker. Bus stop (talk) 17:27, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

From what I've read and heard, the expectation of a tip in places like the US is less to do with obnoxious attitudes on the part of employees but more to do with a strange (at least to those not used to it) system that has developed whereby the employees are underpaid based on the expectation they will be tiped, sometimes even with reductions to the minimum wage. I do agree spitting in someone's food is taking it too far. Nil Einne (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

The employer is basically passing along the defects in his business model to the employees who in turn pass the "problem" along to the customer. The person in the middle is the employee. It is upon the employee that the burden rests to remedy or at least optimally cope with the situation. The employees are beholden to two human entities. They can quit the job, they can ask for an increase in pay (from their employer)—but I don't think an option is to treat the customer obnoxiously. They would not even be receiving their measly paycheck from their employer if the customer were not patronizing the establishment. Bus stop (talk) 17:56, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Well I didn't suggest they should treat the customer obnoxiously (nor did anyone else). But I don't think either of your suggested options are realistic in the US considering the nature of the employer-employee relationship there, the power of each, the labour and unions laws and practices there etc, particularly of the employees we are referring to. More so in the current economy. In other words, while the employee should not treat the customer obnoxiously, it's silly to blame, as you seem to be doing, the employee for the current flawed system in the US or to expect them to be able to change it. Nil Einne (talk) 18:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

No, I didn't think you advocated that they treat the customer obnoxiously. I was just going on with my thoughts. But in response to your last post—I don't think the economy should be allowed to cause a decay in human relations. I have to say again that it is the employee's responsibility not to get caught in the bind in which passing along strenuous hints to the customer that they must tip sufficiently is a permanent part of their functioning as a working person. I am saying that the employee must accept that it is their employer's ultimate responsibility to pay them adequately—not the customer's. Bus stop (talk) 19:16, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

In fact it's the customer that is the sole reason the business exists. The customer presumably chose to eat in a restaurant setting because they desired an uplifting experience involving enjoyable foods and the pleasure of having other people prepare and serve the food. I find it to be a clash of aims to on the one hand try to enhance the customer's experience and on the other hand assure oneself of a good tip. If the customer choses to tip at the low end of the expected scale, I think that the employee should just accept that. There is no cause for the employee to provide any negative feedback to the customer. This is because the customer did not set up the business model. The customer merely chose to avail himself of a restaurant setting for a meal. The tipping aspect of restaurant-eating has to be accorded a low priority in such a situation. Bus stop (talk) 20:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm not really sure what your talking about. No one was encouraging allowing the economy to cause a decay in human relations. Also no one in this particular thread (don't know about below) said that it shouldn't be the employer's responsibility nor that the employee shouldn't blame the employer. My sole point was that it's not the employees fault. And actually I would argue the customer has a lot more power then you seem to give them credit for. What you seem to be missing is that because (as you acknowledged) the customer is the reason for the businesses existance. Therefore it is in the employers interest (in some ways more so then the employee who may be able to look elsewhere for work) to ensure the customer is happy. The customer therefore can refuse to patronise businesses which do not pay their employees a decent wage (instead expecting them to make up for it with tips) and employers will have to change their practices. The customer usually doesn't need to patronise any business unlike the employee who does need to make a living to survive so the option is much more open to them then to the employee. (In reality, attempting to change social customs is not easy.) In other words, it comes back to what I've said all along, your blaming the employee is misplaced. Just to repeat what I said at the beginning, this has nothing to do with whether it is acceptable for the employee to treat the customer poorly since that was never the issue. Nil Einne (talk) 13:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, leaving a penny tip makes it obvious that you know a tip was expected, but you think the service is unworthy of a tip, as opposed to you being from a culture that doesn't give tips, or just being cheap. I have done the penny tip thing myself, when the bill was padded with items we didn't order. This particular establishment had done the same thing previously, and I chalked it up to a mistake the first two times. The third time I decided it was either intentional or extreme incompetence, and I used the penny tip to show my displeasure. I also told them I did not plan to return to that restaurant, and never have (if anyone is curious, it was an A&W diner). StuRat (talk) 14:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Note that restaurants often have a "mandatory gratuity" of 15-20% for large groups, a practice which I despise, as it being mandatory takes away any incentive for the servers to offer good service. StuRat (talk) 14:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

It's just because 1. doing a good job for a large group is a pretty tall order, and 2. large groups are too much work without the guarantee of some kind of reasonable tip (and most of their wages are through tips). But hey — if you don't like it, skip those restaurants. They always make it pretty clear up front what their policies are. I'm not sure it takes away all incentive — large groups often overpay and overtip anyway if they've had a good time. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:17, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

In England you can refuse to pay the service charge, even if it's added automatically to your check, if the service was particularly poor. (Sources:[1][2] and Tip (gratuity)) --Colapeninsula (talk) 15:53, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

"Mandatory gratuities" are generally not mandatory - in many cases you can reduce the amount. I recommend you only do so if you issue a complaint to the manager about the service - it would take a horrendously ill-trained manager to insist on the full tip when there had been a complaint about the service! Collect (talk) 16:02, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

At my job (not restaurant service) I have had people add 50¢ to a payment made by check for a $10.00 bill. Seriously. I'm pretty sure that is more in the realm of cheapness/cluelessness than deliberate insult. I've also had people who seem to think a tip is some sort of down payment on future services, like they can pay less on the actual bill next time because they tipped today. Perhaps I should mention that I deal with a lot of drunks and people with mental and emotional problems at my job. A penny tip, however, could only be taken as an insult. I would also add that back when I was a cook I had numerous discussion with servers about the self fulfilling prophecy they sometimes engage in. They deliberately give bad, or at least lackluster, service to someone they do not expect to get a tip from, thus guaranteeing they won't get it. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I've done the 'penny tip' thing before but only once. The service was horrible and the one thing I especially remember about it was the waitress was gone before the glasses stopped sliding across the table. I don't know if this has been pointed out to the non-Americans or not but wait staff is often paid about half what the regular minimum wage is for that area. There are two minimum wages, regular and that for wait staff. Tips are meant to be a way to insure good service because if the wait staff doesn't do well, they don't get tipped well. Dismas|^(talk) 19:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

A mandatory tip on groups, especially of businessmen and of teens and drunks is quite reasonable. Such groups demand a lot of work and they prevent the server from attending other paying customers. I served 13 Japanese businessman breakfast, they sat in three booths for half the shift making rude demands and left no tip on a $250 tab. That was half my expected pay for that morning. μηδείς (talk) 21:56, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, those are two relatively large and heterogeneous groups you just insulted (three, if you count the drunks). Anyway, if you leave no tip, the server might just think you forgot. If you leave 1 cent, it's clear you didn't forget but you are consciously pointing out the awful service. I've never seen this actually done. Some people I know will leave a 15% tip for mediocre service and a 20% tip for good service. Not tipping, as a practice, simply isn't done at the U.S., or is at least so rare that I've never seen it. Anyone who acted like that would be thought of as a big jerk by everyone around him. Foreign travelers should be reminded that they are essentially ambassadors for their country. If three customers are the first Australian people a waitress meets, and they leave a tip of less than 15% (or nothing), she might get the idea that all Australians are jerks, much as a stereotypical Ugly American would leave a bad impression elsewhere. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:05, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Insulted? I am sorry, who did I call a name? Actually having been a waitress, I think I have a leg to stand on. The problem with large parties that are not families is that there is often a squabble over who owes what and taxes and tip are mysteriously not taken into people's calculations when they order. As for explaining to foreigners the necessity to tip, your point is that I should have learned enough Japanese to insult my customers before they ordered, assuming they no nothing about customs where they are travelling? Those men didn't speak enough English other than to demand the name of the thing they wanted. Should I have refused to seat them? As for your sensitivity on behalf of Australians who might be viewed as cheap, that's a bizarre way of ignoring the fact that the tip is the server's expected salary. Not a favor or a compliment. Her living wage. Waitrons are typically paid half of minimum wage by the establishment where they work, from which are deducted payroll taxes, etc., in full. A typical weekly paycheck might be $15-30 after taxes. Sorry if you find that insulting. μηδείς (talk) 00:41, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, well that's about the entire point that was gotten across in the book I mentioned below, and that's why I'm not stingy..... She's right though that explaining tipping could and probably would be taken as grave insult by whoever you are explaining it too (actually I can't think of who wouldn't be insulted by that if they didn't ask about tipping custom first). My gf worked as a waitress at Moses Burger in Tel Aviv (damn good eats!) for a while and can pretty much back up this lady's story. Also, I only just noticed your name transliterated into Latin. Apologies I assumed you might be male (my Greek is really rusty... :() Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 29 Elul 5771 00:49, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, the same thing can happen when meeting many Parisian French, thus leading to that stereotype of them being highly obnoxious (most people have only met one or have heard things). Just because you have one sit next to you in Cancun and blow smoke near your face is no reason to think they are all bad. I have never heard of this one penny policy btw, but I cannot think it wouldn't be taken as a grave insult (then again if you don't plan on eating there again, there probably won't be any consequences unless they tell other people who work in that industry about you). Indeed, in fact that experience with Japanese customers is a bit odd as hotels, at least, generally love them. Apparently they always leave their rooms as tidy as they were when the occupants arrived. Maybe these businessmen have been Westernised, eh? ;) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 29 Elul 5771 00:31, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah, restau (French slang for a restaurant as I often forget the spelling) gratuity. Well, my family generally follows a 20-25% tip (especially my pops and I) and I generally leave about that or I sometimes leave 50% for a meal less than 15 USD where the servers are nice (gets you a free meal every now and then). I don't think that our tipping behaviour is normal, but around 15-20% is usual. It is almost unimaginable to not tip in a restau, but it does happen. For a good book on the experience of being a server in the US which deals heavily with tipping experiences (this is one third of the book, the other two thirds are working in Wal-Mart *lightning and thunder* and as a maid), please read Nickel and Dimed. You'll never be stingy with tips again, I know I'm not.... Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 29 Elul 5771 00:31, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

User:Mwalcoff up above speaks of foreign travellers being ambassadors for their country, and that some Australians leaving the wrong tip could lead a waitress to think all Australians are jerks. But the frequency of questions here shows that foreigners generally DO care, and find very difficult to get it right. I try when I'm there, but am never certain about what I'm doing. For info of Americans reading this, in Australia, we rarely tip anyone for anything. Nobody is paid a wage based so poor that there has to be an expectation that tips will bring their income up to something on which they can live. It's a different culture. It's what we're used to. If an American thinks I am a jerk if I get it wrong when I really am trying, it's surely the American who is being a jerk. HiLo48 (talk) 00:58, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Why do we have a practice of leaving a "gratuity" in a restaurant? Why is the practice not to pay a certain price for a product purchased—in this case a meal in a restaurant? Do we know the origin for this practice? Bus stop (talk) 01:00, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not saying you are a jerk, HiLo48, I'm saying the waitress will assume you are one for not leaving a tip, because in America, people who don't leave tips are considered jerks. The waitress probably has no idea what the tipping practices are in other countries and, even if she does, probably thinks patrons should do as the Romans do when in Rome. It's not fair that she judges Australians based on a single incident, or even a few incidents, but that's how some people think. Incidentally, I don't think Americans leave "big" tips because the waitstaff are paid less than minimum wage. I think they tip because of social custom and because they think it's the right thing to do. Tipping was standard practice before minimum wage laws. The waitstaff exception was presumably based on the pre-existing tipping practice. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:11, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, let's look at the terms for gratuity in other countries. Pourboire; Trinkgeld. The explanations I have heard is that they were originally payments for your server in a place like a tavern to buy a drink, and the terms in other languages seem to support this. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 29 Elul 5771 01:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Here's a comment from an Australian: The usual justification for the practice of always tipping waiters something, no matter how poorly they may do their job (mediocre service still gets 10%; abysmal service still gets a penny), is that they're underpaid and hence it's the customer's responsibility to rectify this. Well, hell no! - is my response to that. Why let the employers off the hook? If they can't afford to pay their staff decently, then they should reorganise their staffing so that they can, or they shouldn't be in business at all. If they are just preying on the good nature of the customers in order to get away with underpaying their staff, then they are dishonest operators and shouldn't be in business. If you look around you'll find all manner of other occupations that have a case for claiming to be underpaid, so why isn't the practice of tipping extended to them? I'm not saying one should never tip; if you want to, do so, but do so because you want to recognise exceptional service that is clearly beyond the usual call of duty, not just because it's expected. I get that the penny for poor service is intended to be, and is received as, an insult. But this business of rewarding mediocre service with a tip is just rubbish. It becomes for all intents and purposes a tax, but a tax that never gets into the government's coffers to be used for the good of the whole community. Mandatory gratuities are to be despised, per StuRat, but not just because they take away any incentive for the servers to offer good service. They're also to be despised because "mandatory gratuity" is one of the most ludicrous contradictions in terms imagineable. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 01:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

"Mandatory gratuity" is an insult to my Anglican tongue. Bus stop (talk) 01:47, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Anglican? I thought you were Jewish. :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 29 Elul 5771 01:58, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

You should probably avoid America (and Canada) in your travels, then, Jack. It's all what you're used to, I guess. However, I do want to say that having dealt with shockingly, offensively bad service in parts of Europe (especially former Communist countries), where tipping is miserly, I came to believe that they should declare that as of a given date, customers at European restaurants will start tipping well and waiters and waitresses will start providing good service. Needless to say, my British friends weren't too keen on the idea. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:30, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

We are ranting here about what are now ingrained cultural differences. I've spent time in Australia and the U.S. and live in Canada, which is similar to the US in tipping habits. Each of us, as a traveller, has an obligation to fit in with the culture as best we can. We are guests in someone else's "household" and, if we really object to the local practices, we should just not return. If, when tipping, you end up paying, in total, more than you think the meal is worth, don't go back to that restaurant. That the "price" of a meal is in three parts (base, tax, tip) in some countries and only one or two in others, and that the third part may be optional, is merely a variation on a theme. Surely any one can look at the menu price, add 15%, and then decide if the meal is worth the investment. (One might be wrong, of course, but that's a judgement call that can't be made until the meal is finished.) However, if a traveller fails in his obligations as a guest, it ill behooves the host to make a fuss or, indeed, make the guest's experience any the less comfortable because of it. While this was a couple of decades ago, I have had tip money handed back to me in both Australia and New Zealand. In each case, I was embarrassed. I am a quick study, though, and then had to re-learn tipping in the big cities of Australia. Bielle (talk) 01:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Your comment is bizarre, Jack. This is not about rectifying anything. It is how the system works. The alternative of unincentivized waitpeople on full salary is available-no law limits that option other than the law of supply and demand. Children are brought up by their parents being taught how to act properly at restaurants. You go in knowing that the actress is working as your agent, and that tipping her is expected and proper. It is a direct feedback system, and a pleasure to the customer to overtip for excellent service. Bad waitresses don't last, and not because of bad quarterly managerial performance reviews after they are grieved to the union. Customers will switch restaurants to follow good waitresses, and request to be seated in their section. I have eaten in other countries and found the service about as pleasant as a trip to the post office. You don't hear Americans complaining about the system, or waitresses. For foreigners to complain about tipping is for them to complain that they see the transaction directly rather than having it hidden in higher prices for their meals and wait staff who treat the customer as a burden, not a source of mutual value. μηδείς (talk) 01:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

But a big part of the problem is that even when we ask here what we should do (and recent threads show that lots of people do), we get five different answers. Americans seem unable to tell us dumb foreigners what to do with any certainty, even when we mean well. I love visiting America, but I hate the feeling of uncertainty about tipping. HiLo48 (talk) 01:40, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

There seems to be an odd notion that the situation in the US is a result of the law or some exploitation of the waitress. Not at all. Waitresses can easily make $200 a night in moderately good restaurants. This is cash in pocket, no records kept. Restaurants can pay higher than minimum wage to their wait staff. It is simply supply and demand--and there is great competition between the best servers to work the best shifts at the best restaurants. μηδείς (talk) 01:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The Bolsheviks believed that tipping was a demeaning practice. When Trotsky lived in New York, he refused to tip waiters on the grounds it was beneath their dignity. They weren't too happy about that. By the way, let's clarify what the tipping rules are in America:

• Good service -- 20%
• OK service -- 15%
• Bad service -- 15%, then post an angry one-star review on Google Maps. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:42, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Or an angry one-star review on yelp. 75.6.243.251 (talk) 01:29, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I started the other tipping thread. Anyway, I don't understand what a lot of you are saying. I tip based on the actual service. Nothing spectacular but regular service, I default to 15% for larger amounts, and always leave a whole amount for less expensive meals, rounding up, that is, if a bill is $9 in a diner with taxes, I'll leave $1.50, not $1.35. Better service gets 20%, excellent service gets 25%. Kinda poor service I leave 10%, bad service 5%, really bad service, I always leave nothing and I always tell the person that I am not a stingy tipper and why they are getting $0.00. However, I am also a person who doesn't mind confrontation. But I don't get this attitude of leaving 15% no matter what. Defeats the whole purpose if there is one. I would get rid of tipping entirely, but until they change the laws, it is unfair not to tip when service is okay. The waiter is not a lobbyist, they're a waiter (who gets half of the legally set minimum wage); don't protest the system by punishing them for its insanity.--108.46.107.181 (talk) 01:40, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Medeis, there are a number of reasons why Australians view the US behaviour as fundamentally immoral. These relate to the still influential and socially dominant principles lying behind the now defunct "Australian settlement" (as relevant here) of compulsory arbitration, a living wage for all, restricted profits for small capitalists and petits-bourgeois and a willingness to tolerate higher prices for internally produced goods. From this deeply ingrained perspective, the US practice is immoral and inhuman—and I'm not using these in a pejorative sense. To the Australian sensibility derived from the continuing influence of the Australian settlement, US practice breaks Australian moral codes regarding what a wage is, how a wage is paid, and how a price is presented to a consumer. From an Australian perspective, the US practice undermines elements of what constitutes the social human being—Australians view gratuitous or acted service behaviour to be an insult and have a complex culturally structured conception of what is and isn't insulting. Being mildly insulted by someone serving you is acceptable, for example, if it is an expression of their genuine being at work. Moreover, Australian expectations about centralised arbitration and bargaining, which have been especially cemented in the food culture due to the long and tireless work of the now Liquor Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers Union means that while Australians will be outraged at the wage conditions of US waitstaff, they don't see it as their personal responsibility to rectify an individual waitstaff's industrial circumstances. While some Australians are willing to assimilate to foreign cultures, others recognise the difference in culture but are unwilling to assimilate over this issue due to the fundamental and moral nature of the difference in food service in US and Australian capitalisms. The clash of cultures here is very deep, and at this level of depth of cultural dissonance, many people will be unwilling to culturally assimilate even when a guest. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:52, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

It's certainly not a perfect system because participation is, in most cases, completely voluntary. On the other hand, when I was a cook I remember seeing servers counting their piles of tips at the end of a busy night and thinking to myself that no matter how hard I worked, how busy we were, I get the same thing every night, while they (usually) get a substantial bump on a such a night. One of them flippantly told me once that we cooks made so much money she didn't think we should care. Once explained what I actually made per hour (this was about 13 years ago, $8.50/hr nearly everything made to order and requiring some skill in presentation as well as cooking, required to come up with three unique specials per shift and two soups each day, do baking for the coffeehouse portion of the establishment, bring stock for about six coolers up from the basement 2-3 times a day, and work in a poorly-ventilated shoebox of a kitchen and we had to clean the place before we could go home, while the average price for a meal $10-$25 per person, the clientele generally did tip well and our quick hands in the kitchen meant they could "turn and burn" a table of four in 30-40 minutes even if they lingered to have coffee afterwards) she understood my point a bit better. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:55, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Guys, Wikipedia Reference Desks are no place for clashing over cultural norms. Let's look at this anthropologically. No one's practice is superior to anothers'. We all have our cultural practices for our own reasons. Let's not fight about them. This has the potential to spiral into a big conflagration. Let's not let it. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 29 Elul 5771 01:58, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, and it's also important to note the question was 100% answered by the first answerer, Marco Polo. Public awareness (talk) 02:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Beeblebrox has it right, I worked as both a cook and a waitress, but was usually hired as a cook because they were in shorter supply. Until I got a salaried position as the head closing cook with four shifts from 3pm to closing four nights a week at $600 (late 1980's) waiting was always a better proposition. Competition for waiting positions was fierce. How such a system--voluntary on all accounts at that--amounts to exploitation I do not know. μηδείς (talk) 02:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

That you don't understand that, and I can never figure out how much I should tip in America, both just highlight the cultural differences. Vive la difference. HiLo48 (talk) 02:35, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to drag this conversation on forever, but can you try to explain? I mean in Medeis' example we have a system where the customer gets good service, the waitress gets lots of cash and the business owner saves money. Everyone wins. How can this be exploitative? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:57, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Well all wage labour is exploitative, see Kazza. But Australians feel that this particular mode of payment is more exploitative than hourly wages. Why? Australia's union movement has been solidly opposed to piece work wages, which tip-dependent waitstaff are engaged in. Australians also view the "crap shoot" as being incompatible with the Australian conception of a living wage in capitalism. Australians also view it as a bull pen, the industry arrangement where employers control day labour—bull pens have been consistently opposed by the union movement since before the Dog collar act. As noted above, Australians view the waitstaff-customer relationship as not being one of false courtesy, so they view the requirement to act for pay as disconnected with the actual work. Australian waitstaff also have a guaranteed income well above the minimum wage, and so Australians would view the lack of guarantee as being exploitative. (Australia's current minimum wage is $589.30/wk, whereas a waitstaff without penalties or casual loading, and not having training responsibility, would be at $629.70/wk; this rate variable upwards by enterprise bargaining or above award payments). Fifelfoo (talk) 03:11, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there is the correlation between gratuities and service that some are assuming. A water/waitress can be cloyingly servile too. A person who is doing their job well shouldn't be doing anything to excess. What is excellent service? I think that a person does a good job as a result of personal motivation. The connection between gratuity and service has been misrepresented in this discussion. Bus stop (talk) 03:18, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Fifelfoo, I wish we were having a face-to-face conversation because what you're writing reads like a foreign language to me -- "bull pen" (the wikilink goes to the baseball term), "false courtesy," "disconnected with the actual work," "casual loading," etc. I understand what you're saying about Australian labor law but that notwithstanding, I still don't see how someone voluntarily taking a position that requires little education but can bring in oodles of cash can be exploitative, unless it's like exotic dancing or something. I trust your sincerity but perhaps we should continue this conversation on user talk pages, although I'm about to be away from my computer for a couple of days. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

From what people have said, I think it's clear many people from outside the US can understand the concept of tipping for excellent service but find it odd the way tips are expecting regardless of service. The alternative is not for the wait staff to receive less or for the business owner to operate at a lower profit, but for the business to charge more and use that to pay the wait staff more with the customer understanding that they are likely to pay what is in the menu (with an optional tip for excellent service) rather then expecting to pay more then on the menu because they have to tip regardless of service. Or even a system whereby the menu mentions a (truly) compulsory service charge of 15% or whatever (which is either distributed to the wait staff equally or which makes up part of the businesses profit which again is used to pay a decent wage to the wait staff). The complexities of business may mean some loss, but it seems likely the biggest loss will be that it's more difficult to cheat on taxes (whether income tax or sales/GST) which I don't personally have any sympathy for. And it seems to me the only real advantage of the US system is that it makes it easier evade or avoid taxes. (I haven't been to that many countries and don't visit restaurants that much anyway but of the people I've spoken to they haven't described the wait staff in the US as exceptionally better then countries where tipping is not expected all the time.) BTW, I call it an oddity because I'm not say that it's necessarily explotative as oppose to simply odd or strange to those not used to such a system. (It may be tipping is a bit on the low side in places like Australia, New Zealand and Malaysia, but while I can understand a greater usage of tips, the system of always tipping still seems odd. As VW noted below and to some extent BS elsewhere, one problem with the concept of tips is you are sometimes rewarding or penalising the wrong person.) P.S. Hopefully without taking this too OT, the fact that if some of the comments above are accurate, wait staff may end up better off then those cooking to me shows even more how strange the system is, since and hopefully I don't offend anyone by this, the cooking would usually be the higher skill job I would expect a higher renumeration. P.P.S. To some extent this reminds me of the US preference for sales tax not being part of the quoted cost. Don't get me wrong, I can understand why this is very difficult to implement in the US because of the wide variance in sales tax, it's just the fact that many seem to prefer to have the tax not part of the quoted price I find odd. Nil Einne (talk) 13:29, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

As an important point about the above : "Mandatory Gratuities" are not legally mandatory. Courts have ruled against them on the grounds that it's a contradiction in terms. (Gratuities are, by definition, non-mandatory.) Here's the best cite I can find quickly [3], but I know I've read others. APL (talk) 02:41, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

And that's where restauranteurs have failed to be clever/evil enough. They should just call it a "service fee on large parties" and not mention or imply that the server gets all of it. (in some cases they actually don't get all of it) People would pay it and tip. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:49, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Here's my 1c worth. What I find bizarre about this debate is that we are talking about waiters being penalized for substandard service, when a lot of the time a substandard meal is nothing to do with the waiters. It's not that hard to be a waiter, all you have to do is take orders and bring stuff to and from someone's table. If I've had a bad experience at a restaurant, it might be the waiter's fault, but it is more likely to be down to other factors – the food took too long to arrive (because it took too long to be prepared), the portions were too small, it didn't taste very nice, the music was too loud, the table was next to the toilet, and so on. How am I to express my displeasure at such an experience, other than by leaving a low tip? The fact that my leaving a low tip impacts directly on the waiter, even though none of it was his fault, proves that the system is fundamentally flawed. --Viennese Waltz 08:01, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

No, you don't express displeasure over bad food or atmosphere in the United States by reducing the tip for the server. If the bad food is delivered promptly and with a smile amid booming, horrible music, as a rat scampers across the floor, you either eat a bite to find out that the food is awful or not, then request the check, leave a decent tip, and leave the restaurant, never to return. I think most Americans understand that the standard tip is 15–20% and that you leave that amount regardless of the quality of the food or the venue unless there was something seriously wrong with the service. Marco polo (talk) 14:04, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Nobody tips me for just showing up and doing my job to a mediocre standard. Why should I be expected to tip my waiter? Astronaut (talk) 16:54, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

If "...most Americans understand that the standard tip is 15–20% and that you leave that amount regardless of the quality of the food or the venue..." then why don't these American establishments build into the prices of the components of a meal as found on a menu a "15–20%" increase in cost to the consumer? The practice of providing a gratuity seems archaic and less than transparent. The practice introduces a fudge factor that compromises the employee's (waiter or waitress) relationship to the restaurant owner. It is clearly simpler and more obvious for the consumer to see the price on the menu and for the waiter/waitress to know what their rate of remuneration is from their employer. This by the way is quite different from haggling. There are only two participants in haggling—the buyer and the seller. Being paid partly in gratuities is far more complicated. Bus stop (talk) 17:06, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

While I agree that Bus stop's system would be fairer and more rational, established customs do not exist because they are fair or rational. Tipping is one of many suboptimal customs in the United States. However, every country I've ever visited has suboptimal and irrational customs. When visiting a country, one simply has to accept that country's customs whether one likes them or not. If a person finds a country's customs so reprehensible that he or she cannot accept them, then that person should avoid that country. As for why American establishments don't simply raise prices: 1) Owners like things the way they are. Customers who would not pay a 15-20% price increase will still come in, tip low, and provide the owners with undiminished revenue. Also, tips are a way to discipline waitstaff without requiring managers to do anything. 2) Any establishment that did raise prices would face a loss of business because their stated prices would now be that much higher than competitors'. Low tippers would go to competitors, where they could spend less for a similar experience. Even fair tippers might not realize that the establishment's prices included the tip, since that is not the American custom. Marco polo (talk) 18:48, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

You say "If a person finds a country's customs so reprehensible that he or she cannot accept them, then that person should avoid that country." I do find it part way to reprehensible, but am willing to to try to deal with it in order to enjoy the many delights of the country. (As I said above, vive la difference. That's WHY we travel.) But more than reprehensible, I still find large parts of it incomprehensible. Restaurants are confusing enough, having to decide on the basis of both what's socially compulsory and what is deserved in return for quality of service. But for a tourist there are many other areas. I was part of a party of travellers containing a wheelchair user. We got wonderful service at many airports from people unhelpfully called Agents. Someone later suggested we should have tipped them. True? A package tour from Las Vegas to the Grand Canyon included a mini-bus trip to and from Boulder airport. Several passengers tipped the mini-bus driver, but I didn't see them tip the pilot. Were they right? There are many such non-mainstream examples. There can be no guide book to cover them all, and who's going to look it up every time anyway? I learnt from an Aussie ski-instructor working in the USA that they get tips regularly. Good looking females get a lot more than males. How is that fair? (Ski instructors in Australia NEVER get tips.) So, my question comes back to wanting to get it right, not wanting to offend or financially hurt someone, and having no idea how to achieve this. HiLo48 (talk) 23:39, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

You achieve it by reading the "tipping" section of your guide book, and by asking others. The same way you learn about any idiosyncratic, but nonetheless important, cultural practice. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:06, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I read the book. It didn't mention the two examples I gave. That's why I mentioned them here. Would you know what to do? I asked others. They were guessing too. HiLo48 (talk) 01:11, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

The thing about archaic yet ubiquitous systems of culture is that they can't just be changed by wishing it was so. This is an unregulated cultural practice. In any case, it's not clear that either the consumers, the owners, or the waitstaff would prefer the system you suggest.

One additional wrinkle. I have a friend who, years ago, did a lot of research into the correlation of tipping with race. Unsurprisingly, whites tip Blacks a lot less than they tip whites, on average, and, in fact, Blacks tip Blacks a lot less than they tip whites, as well. This isn't super surprising, given that all of the fudge factors involved — sub/unconscious prejudice usually comes out pretty strongly in small judgment calls. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:48, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

For me, it's somehow surprising that blacks behave more or less like whites. Why wouldn't they tip blacks fairly?Quest09 (talk) 21:54, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Probably because they've internalized a good deal of implicit white racism and cultural norms (compare, even in this age of a Black President, the number of positive cultural depictions of African Americans one finds to the number of negative ones). See, e.g. the famous Clark doll experiments, among many other possible examples. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:03, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Technically, Barrack Obama is mulatto, or mixed race if you prefer a more PC term. Googlemeister (talk) 14:15, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

The PC version is less precise that the term mulatto which actually means white + black. Quest09 (talk) 14:50, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

The PC term is preferred because "mulatto" means "mule", and comparing people to animals is generally insulting; especially among African Americans, where it is very insulting. --Jayron32 03:35, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

In answer to HiLo48, in addition to hints in travel guides and watching other who go before you, ask yourself whether you could imagine getting the same sort of help for something from a perfect stranger, how much time and effort is put in, and the pleasantness with which the act is done. Consider the person's likely salary. If you offer a tip and it is refused, offer a second time, then pocket the money. Frankly, I find tipping to be a very pleasurable experience. Although it is not tipping per se, I was once waiting for an uptown 6 Train late at night. In the twenty minutes it took for the train to arrive, a guitarist on the platform happened to play three of my favorite songs. Passing to enter the train I dropped a fifty in his case. I can assure you that to this day remembering giving the gratuity I get more pleasure out of the experience than he did. See magnanimity. μηδείς (talk) 02:30, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes, we do have buskers in Australia. Pretty sure there's no minimum wage there at all though. Their ONLY income is what people drop in the guitar case. Not a comparable situation. But back to the topic... You say above "Consider the person's likely salary." I'm a foreigner. I would have no idea in many cases. Do you know how much Australian taxi drivers get paid? How would you find out? HiLo48 (talk) 03:14, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

As a person who has worked several "tip optional" jobs and dealt with a fair number of foreigners I can tell you one simple way: just ask them if they take tips, or if you want to be a bit more subtle, ask how often they get tipped. If they have any sense they won't be offended because they will assume this is a question leading to a tip later on. A lot of jobs that are customarily tipped in the states, such as pizza delivery, are paid at least minimum wage as they are in the "optional" category. In many places taxi drivers are actually not paid an hourly wage, but rather pay out of their earnings for the day for the use of the cab vehicle, either a flat rate or per-mile charge. In either situation a tip is more like a bonus and is likely to make the driver remember you in the future. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:29, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Adding

A related question to the above section (that takes eight presses of the Page Down key): Isn't the “service charge” or “tip” in the price of the item already? Seeing that food is so expensive “nowadays”, it should be. Thanks, 75.6.243.251 (talk) 01:33, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

If a service charge is included in the price of an item that will be stated explicitly on the bill. μηδείς (talk) 02:32, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay. 75.6.243.251 (talk) 00:09, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Coupons?

A few of my friends have been in some quite lengthy discussions over this: If one is using a coupon, say, for a free appetizer (Normally ~10-12 dollars at the places we tend to visit) - when it comes down to the tip, should this 10-12 dollars be included in the tipping percentage? ^Avic_ennasis @ 07:26, 1 Tishrei 5772 / 07:26, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. The coupon simply acts as cash and the tip should be based on the retail priceFroggie34 (talk) 08:25, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

And indeed, the big coupon sites these days, like Groupon, state this very explicitly. The tip is meant to be independent of the coupon price. Any other way just penalizes the wait staff. And if you don't realize how much it penalizes the wait staff, look up the minimum wage for tipping jobs in your state. It is usually much, much, much less than the normal federal or state minimum wage. The minimum wage in Massachusetts, for example (which is fairly progressive as these things go) is $8 an hour. For jobs where you take more than $20 a month in tips — 20 whole dollars... a month! — the minimum wage drops to $2.63 an hour!!! --Mr.98 (talk) 14:18, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the point is that is a stupid loophole designed to externalize the cost of restauranteurs in an abusive manner. I mean, what is the point of calling it a minimum wage if it is not really they legal minimum? Googlemeister (talk) 18:24, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

"... look up the minimum wage for tipping jobs in your state. It is usually much, much, much less than the normal federal or state minimum wage ..." - which perfectly illustrates the point I made up above, namely, that wait staff are systemically grossly underpaid and it has become the customers' responsibility to rectify this. My point was characterised as "bizarre", but it's anything but that. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:29, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

As pointed out above, Americans don't tip because they want to rectify the labor laws. The practice of tipping waitstaff predates the minimum wage. The tipped-employees exception is in effect because it was assumed that the tips would more than make up the difference. The idea is there's no point in mandating that someone get paid $8 an hour if the person is going to make twice that much in tips alone. Why there's a minimum wage at all for tipped employees, I don't know -- $2.63 an hour is not much better than nothing. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:04, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, at least with Federal laws, if an employee is not making at least the federal minimum wage from base pay + tips, the employer is required to make up the difference. ref. Thanks all for settling the Great Coupon Debate for me. ^Avic_ennasis @ 05:39, 2 Tishrei 5772 / 05:39, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Is it possible that when the minimum wage law was drawn up in Massachusetts, someone piped up and said "but those waiters already get a huge amount from tips" and the minimum wage was thereby reduced for those who receive more than $20 in tips? If so, it seems that by tipping your waiter, you have managed to screwed them out of the legally mandated minimum wage that everyone else can demand. Astronaut (talk) 17:21, 30 September 2011 (UTC)