Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2006 July 25

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i need help please sir !

i have big problem in the vikipedia (Turkey) they have own web page but when u search the kurds u cant find they always deleting and blocked..in the turkey 20 million kurds are living but they wont put the aobut kurds aomting theyare still racist turks are racist please help we wanna write own culture ...is this free encycopeida right ? so where is the freedoms ? turk r racist they dont want we wirte someting...please fix u guys this problem about this thanks dont give the turks thiswebsite they are racist and stupid ! thanks bye —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DJFG (talk • contribs) .

There is nothing we at the English language Wikipedia can do about any other language's Wikipedia. You might want to contact Jimbo Wales. User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The reference desk is not the right place for this kind of discussion. Also, tr:Kürtler isn't deleted, although it does appear to have a large number of warning templates. Are you saying there's a big conspiracy of the Turkish admins to systematically bias the Turkish Wikipedia, or just that there are some Turkish users with strong feelings? —Keenan Pepper 02:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

In my experience the edit-wars between Turkish nationals and Kurds are about on par with Israeli-Palestine relations. Unfortunately, as Zoe notes, unless we speak Turkish there's no way that someone on the English Wikipedia could intervene - we don't have any special authority on these matters, in any case. Ziggurat 03:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedias are separated by language, not nationality. There is a Kurdish Wikipedia, so you could edit that. I assume that there will be more Kurds who speak Turkish than Turks who speak Kurdish, so you actually have an advantage over the Turks, edit-wise. Alternatively, you could edit the English Wikipedia to reach the widest possible audience. Turks being quite westernised, I supose you would reach a fair amount of them this way too, especially the more intellectual ones who are more likely to rule the country one day, so they're an important group to convince of your views. For that to work, you'd have to use more diplomatic language than you did just now, though. DirkvdM 08:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting replies everyone... This is really giving me some more knowledge of the situation... To bad tv or newspapers didn't provide info like this. Hanez --216.211.53.147 04:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Did AC/DC play at a high school in Northern California?

Please help settle a dispute . . . Did AC/DC perform at Clayton Valley High School in Concord, California, in 1980 or 1981? Unless I am crazy, I seem to remember the band playing in the schools outdoor atrium . . .but no one seems to believe me. Hopefully, Wikipedia can find out something to prove me right or wrong . . .?! 66.169.118.223 04:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

If it was part of their official tour it should be listed here [1]. They also have year by year history there and a quick look makes it look highly unlikely. They were starting the massive back in black tour in summer of 1980 to tens of thousands. Maybe it was a cover band [2] Nowimnthing 15:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

legends,stories

can u give me links to sites about festivals,legends,sayings ,rituals,poetry assciated with the land ,air ,water i india. the reason i am asking u to help me is because when i googled it the answers were not very relevant .

Please don't double post. DirkvdM 08:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

sorry but please can io have an answer

Try Indian folklore, Holidays in India, and Indian poetry. Nowimnthing 16:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

diversity

can u explain to me what is the diversity of environment in the world that supports life .--Mightright 07:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I have read your question eight times and still can't make out what you're trying to ask. Could you rephrase, please? Try to use complete sentences, capitalisation and the occasional punctuation mark. In the meantime, our articles on biodiversity, life and ecosystem might be interesting reading. — QuantumEleven 07:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

or the diversity of environment that exists in the world .--Mightright 07:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Try Biome Nowimnthing 16:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Artist

Who is the known Artist which was killed by the hand of his own father?

Marvin Gaye, for one.--Anchoress 08:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd have thought he meant a visual artist, but Marvin Gaye is probably what's being looked for here. Category:Murdered artists doesn't show up any filicides. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 12:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, we musicians get this all the time. Ask someone if music is an art and they'll say "yes". But ask them in stead to name some arts and they'll probably completely forget about music. Hell, they might even mention 'martial arts'. But music? Ah well, one consolation - the reason is probably that music is much more ubiquitous, more a part of real life. DirkvdM

Numbers & letters written above doors

In German and Austrian towns, I often see numbers and letters written in chalk above the doors of people's houses. I don't have an example of the actual numbers and letters, but does anyone know why they are there and what they mean? --Richardrj 12:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Never mind; I found the answer here. --Richardrj 15:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

West Virginia - unusual borders

Looking on the map of the state of West Virginia, the shape of the state is very irregular. I understand that many borders follow rivers and other natural boundries - but it appears that whomever decided this states shape went out of there way to produce a very distinctive outline. What were the deciding factors that led to this states most unusual borders?

Thank you

• West Virginia might answer your question in it's #History section. Basically, at the Civil War Virginia went Confederate, but the western counties wanted to remain in the Union. Therefore, the division is along county lines. Geogre 12:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
  • And the county lines are generally based on rivers and ridgelines. The mountains in the area follow a generally northeast-southwest trend. --Serie 20:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It largely goes back to old colonial charters drawn up when the area west of the Appalachians wasn't well known. Maryland's southern border was set as the Potomac River, which squiggles around. The partition between WV and VA generally ran southwest-to-northeast along the foothills that separated the mountains from the Shenandoah Valley. If the Potomac ran straight east-west, West Virginia's northeastern section would look normal. I've read the far edge of WV's eastern panhandle resulted from a couple of counties east of the foothills voting to join WV while would-be opponents were away with the Confederate armies. The northern panhandle reflects the charter of Pennsylvania, which set that colony's western boundary at 5° west of Philadelphia. VA gave up its claims to all lands west of the Ohio after the Revolutionary War. Because the Ohio runs north-to-south for a while just after crossing the western edge of PA, WV has a northern panhandle. -- Mwalcoff 00:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Much of the relevant information on the development of the West Virginia borders is scattered in various articles, or apparently does not yet exist on Wikipedia. Everybody knows about the separation of West Virginia from Virginia because of the Civil War, but how Virginia got its shape before that is more obscure. The origin of the odd northern panhandle of West Virginia is partially explained in the Yohogania County article. Basically Virginia and Pennsylvania disagreed about their western border -- where the Mason-Dixon line should end -- in the Pittsburgh region right through the American Revolution, with the Royal Governor of VA even seizing Fort Pitt (Pittsburgh) and renaming it Fort Dunmore. The southwestern border of West Virginia, which is not so odd looking, results from the separation of Kentucky, then known as "Kentucky County", from Virgina. So, in a nutshell, West Virginia's border results from pieces being cut away from the Old Dominion's once massive area, which once even included all of this. Surprisingly, nowhere on Wikipedia do I see a map of Virginia's borders at its most extensive. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 23:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

If you think West Virginia is shaped oddly, look at a map of Maryland! Loomis 20:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah? Check out the shape of Wyoming. Weird! --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 20:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You may find Territorial evolution of the United States a fascinating article.-gadfium 07:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Funnily enough, Kevin, not everybody "knows about the separation of West Virginia from Virginia because of the Civil War", because, again funnily enough, not everybody who haunts these pages is from the USA. But that's something I've learned today.  :--) JackofOz 13:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

most revered?

which place is similar to the southern hemisphere's most familiar and mysterious landforms and was revered and worshipped by people for countless centuries, and nowadays, by law, is protected from exploitation?

Ayers Rock? --Richardrj 13:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• Please note: the following comment has been repeatedly removed by the original poster. Note that repeatedly reverting the same edit can lead to your being banned from Wikipedia. Thanks for leaving it this time: ":I do wonder whether asking on the reference desk for the answer to quiz questions is really fair to the other competitors. Notinasnaid 13:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC) " Notinasnaid 13:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

There are other websites much better at answering quiz and puzzle questions. For example, try this site, and click on "quizzes and puzzles". Also, when you do ask quiz questions, please copy them accurately so that they make sense. As written, there are lots of possible answers to this one. The southern hemisphere is a big place, with lots of landforms, and lots of similar landforms.--Shantavira 19:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

If the quiz is such that it gives you the time to ask then actually doing that is totally fair play, Id say. Then again, does this apply to homework too? Hmmm ... DirkvdM 08:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

More prestigious?

This probably belongs in the misc place, but I'm not sure, so: which is more prestigious, the Jefferson Scholarship at the University of Virginia or the Morehead Scholarship at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill? I just want your opinions.

Sorry, we do facts, not opinions. --LarryMac 14:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh? You mean "we're supposed to ... " ? DirkvdM 08:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Quite possibly the one that gets 18 times more Google hits than the other, IMHO (but of course that could be because of scandal and intrigue. Having never heard of either, neither is prestigious AFAIK).--Shantavira 19:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

They're both wonderful. There are two Morehead Scholars. I don't know how many Jefferson Scholars there are. Both universities are first class, and both deliver a good undergraduate and great graduate education. Each is probably "more prestigious" in its university's shadow than the other, but, outside of that, neither is spectacularly well known. If you show up at a job interview in Iowa, the employer will only know that you got a good scholarship. (Yes, I am a Tarheel.) Geogre 02:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I've heard of the Morehead Scholarship, and I'm not even American. Never heard of the Jefferson Scholarship, however. I'd say that the Morehead is more prestigious. According to the Wikipedia article Morehead Scholarship, it is the oldest merit-based scholarship in the USA. --Mathew5000 09:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

MPAA approval numbers

Toward the end of the final credits of most American films, the MPAA logo is displayed along with a number. For example:

• The Color of Money (1986): "#28202"
• Fight Club (film) (1999): "Approved No. 36857"
• Superman Returns (2006): "No. 42582"

Do these numbers correspond with the film rating process? You might think that they would, but if so, why does it not show the ratings themselves in addition to the number? Also, the unrated version of The Girl Next Door still has the MPAA logo in the end credits along with "No. 40269". Since it is the unrated version, you would think that the MPAA would get upset if that logo is supposed to refer to an MPAA rating. Also, what film was No. 1 under this system, or other milestones like No. 10000, No. 40000, etc.? --Mathew5000 12:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You can see those numbers on films that were released before the current rating system was rolled out... AnonMoos 17:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Based solely on the evidence presented, I'd say they're just serial numbers for the ratings (all 4 examples increase more-or-less linearly with time). That is, Superman Returns is probably the 42582nd film rated by the MPAA. — Lomn | Talk 18:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

But if that were the case, why would an unrated movie (The Girl Next Door) have the logo and a number in the credits? Moreover, when a film is submitted to the MPAA to be rated, isn't it supposed to be the final version of the film? It doesn't make sense to me that after the MPAA issues a rating to a film, the filmmakers would then insert into the end credits the serial number of the rating, but not the rating itself. --Mathew5000 09:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The version sent to the MPAA is not necessarily the final version. I'd bet it doesn't happen so much nowadays, but studios could send a film, examine the rating, re-cut the film and re-submit it, as often as they liked. Cut out a "hell" here or an exposed bum there and you could get yourself a lower rating. That may also explain the "unrated" version getting a number. Perhaps the film was submitted (gets the number), gets re-edited and re-submitted (gets new number) and goes to theatres. There might not have been an official rating involved, but I'd bet good money that the "unrated" version had indeed been to the rating board. Matt Deres 15:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is some wild speculation. It may be possible to involve MPAA at an early stage of production. (It's more cost effective not to shoot scenes that wouldn't be releasable at the target rating.) There are some interesting anecdotes about horse trading between the BBFC and the producers of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Anyway, if you assume this is the case, one problem with films is that they can change title during shooting, and there can be multiple films with the same title. Not a lot else is constant either: directors, producers, stars and studios can change. Titles and ownership can also change in the years to come. So, it may be pretty confusing to come back to MPAA after a hiatus with a film that used to be called something. So, given this, maybe MPAA will give a unique number to an ongoing film case, and this is what is quoted in the pre-release discussions; it would also allow double checking years later when presented with a renamed film and a question about ratings. A film which was unrated may have been so at the end of a lot of fruitless discussions, so it might still have been assigned a number. Notinasnaid 09:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

According to the Filmnummers web page [3], MPAA certificate number 1 was issued to 1934's The World Moves On. The IMDB's entry on this film [4] also mentions this distinction. This system of approval and certification is documented in the Production Code article. Filmnummers lists 1944's Dragon Seed as receiving certificate number 10000. The series of numbers listed at Filmnummers runs continuously through and beyond 1968, the year in which the MPAA's modern system of advisory ratings replaced the Production Code. Therefore, presumably, the ratings board's certificate numbers simply continue the series begun by the Production Code Administration in 1934. Matt Fitzpatrick 00:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! --Mathew5000 02:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Query re Brihadaranyaka Upanishad

How old is this text:

It is not for the sake of the husband, my beloved, that the husband is dear, but for the sake of the Self.

It is not for the sake of the wife, my beloved, that the wife is dear, but for the sake of the Self.

It is not for the sake of the children, my beloved, that the children are dear, but for the sake of the Self.

                  Hinduism.  Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 2.4.4-5

and how should I correctly acknowledge it or credit it if quoting it in a teaching manual? Also - how can I be sure I have found the best translation?

Thank you - I appreciate your help

See Bṛhadāraṇyaka. It is one of the mukhya Upanishads, and among the oldest even of these, this means that the text probably dates to ca. the 8th century BC (the Indian Iron Age, or the time of the early Mahajanapadas; give or take another century to be on the safe side; it is impossible to date these texts with greater accuracy). Your translation is the one by Swami Nikhilananda (1987), ISBN 0911206140. The translation is rather straightforward, and Max Müller (1879) has

'Verily, a husband is not dear, that you may love the husband; but that you may love the Self, therefore a husband is dear. 'Verily, a wife is not dear, that you may love the wife; but that you may love the Self, therefore a wife is dear. 'Verily, sons are not dear, that you may love the sons; but that you may love the Self, therefore sons are dear.

You can find all of this information in five minutes by beginning with the Bṛhadāraṇyaka article and the links listed there, and by using google a little bit.

The original text may be found here: [5]

ná vā́ are pátyuḥ kā́māya pátiḥ priyó bʰavaty, / ātmánas tú kā́māya pátiḥ priyó bʰavati. / ná vā́ are jāyā́yai kā́māya jāyā́ priyā́ bʰavaty, / ātmánas tú kā́māya jāyā́ priyā́ bʰavati. / ná vā́ are putrā́ṇāṃ kā́māya putrā́ḥ priyā́ bʰavanty, ātmánas tú kā́māya putrā́ḥ priyā́ bʰavanti.

dab (ᛏ) 10:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

ITAR and Computers

Are new computers, intended to be used by a military contractor abroad, considered an export that is subject to the regulations of ITAR?

It is crosspost day! Everyone join in the celebration! --Kainaw ^(talk) 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You're not crossed about his post, are you? Maybe even double crossed by his double post? DirkvdM 08:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Tons of explosives dropped in bombing during World War II

Does anyone know where I can get a ballpark figure for the amount of explosives, rendered in tons of TNT preferably, dropped by all sides in World War II (including the atomic bombs)? --Fastfission 19:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, we have an article Military production during World War II which lists military production broken down by type and country, but it only lists weapons, not payloads. I suppose you could look at the figures for bomber aircraft built, and approximate how much each might have dropped during the war, but it would be highly inaccurate. --198.125.178.207 21:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

But from that article I was able to find this article which includes Allied tonnage in strategic bombing against Germany, which is getting me a lot closer... if I could combine that with the Axis tonnage from strategic bombing and the bombing of Japan, that would probably get me within an order of magnitude, which is all I need... --Fastfission 00:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

After playing with some numbers, I've come up with about 2 Mt as a very rough and potentially too-high estimate (I only need it to the nearest Mt for my purposes). Does that sound totally improbable? --Fastfission 02:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't use production numbers - so much was left over at the end of the war. Korea helped use up the supply, I understand. Rmhermen 14:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't use production numbers for exactly that reason. This is what I ended up using the numbers for, and on the description page I've tallied up my reasoning for 2 Mt as a probably safe approximation. --Fastfission 17:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Sagan used that same estimate for "a World War II every second for the length of a lazy afternoon. "[6]EricR 18:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Found an estimate of 6 megatons for "total tonnage of weapons of all types exploded by all countries in World War II." Jagger, John (1991). The Nuclear Lion: What Every Citizen Should Know about Nuclear Power and Nuclear War. New York: Plenum Press. p. 212.EricR 18:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

"The total explosive power of all bombs dropped in all of World War II, during which 50 million people died, including Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was 3 megatons. The total explosive power of all bombs ever used in the history of the world in wars is 10 megatons."Ehrlich, Robert (1987). Perspectives on Nuclear War and Peace Education. New York: Greenwood Press. p. 158.EricR 19:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Six sounds unreasonably high without seeing the figures used to come up with it (I feel like 2-3 is pretty safe but even that might be high). In any case, many thanks for looking those sorts of things up for me! I know that the anti-nuke literature often has statements of this sort, often though they don't cite how they come up with them. But seeing at least two other sources which put it in the same ballpark makes me feel somewhat comfortable, since I know at least where my figures come from. --Fastfission 01:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Muslim

Can someone tell me if Iran is the only Muslim country with the majority population of Shi'ite Muslim?

They are also a majority in Azerbaijan, Iraq and Bahrain, and the largest group (but not a majority) in Lebanon. See Shi'a population. David Sneek 20:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Girlfriend becoming a lesbian?

My girlfriend of five years recently left me because she has fallen in love with a woman. It is a confusing situation on many levels, but one particular aspect of it has be befuddled: Why is being left for a woman less emotionally distressing than if she had left me for a man? It still really sucks, but if she had fallen in love with another man I would not consider taking her back because it would burn a permanent scar into any relationship that we would attempt to have. However, I do not feel like any irreversible damage has been done and, furthermore, I could easily imagine myself taking her back once she is finished with her little experiment.

Toko loko 20:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Weird situation. Well, you are a man but you haven't been "defeated" by another man. If your girlfriend had left you for another man you would wonder if he was somehow better than you. In this case your girlfriend left you for another woman and a woman is not a rival for your manhood. My advice is to get another girlfriend asap. Flamarande 20:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Or a Hummer. --LarryMac 20:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd guess because it abrogates you of responsibility for the breakup: it's none of the qualities of your personality or identity or how you treated them or how you got along together or what your long-term prospects are that led to it, it's something that you had no control over. It's not you, it's biology! Ziggurat 20:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

In American pop culture, the opposite tends to be true: a woman leaving a man in favour of another woman is seen as more emotionally distressing (to the man), or at least as reflecting worse on the man, in the sense of demonstrating his haplessness. Two examples are Ross Geller in season one of Friends, and Woody Allen in one of his movies with Meryl Streep, probably Manhattan. --Mathew5000 21:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• My original research: If you take back your lover after infidelity regardless of who your partner chose, then it (he/she) thinks that you are a puppet without any resolution and will. You will lose your dignity and it will think that you can be manipulated not only in this instance but throughtout the future of your relationship. Unless you have kids, I recommend that you act judiciously.

I am not going to say that you can find many attractive partners in the world because there are many attractive singles in your city, the heck with the world.--21:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you all for your responses. This is the sort of question that would be awkward to ask my local librarian and it is nice being able to get reasonable answers. In response to the infidelity claim, she emphasized that she would not be unfaithful to me in any way, which is why she broke up with me rather than cheat on me. She also refuses to be unfaithful to her new lover, which is why I currently have blue balls.

I also find it interesting that my brain could come up with the right emotions, while logically I had no understanding for why they were there.

Toko loko 22:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Can I add my own personal perspective on this. When I was married I was never physically unfaithful to my wife, but I did fall in love - with a man. After a period of deep anguish, I decided to tell her about it. Initially she took it well, because she knew I never had any intention of doing anything physical with him, and we both wanted our marriage to overcome the issue. He was straight anyway, so nothing would ever have come of it. (Had he been gay, and available, maybe I would have left her for him - but we'll never know.) Despite the guy's total unavailability, my feelings for him only intensified over the next year, yet I still loved my wife very much. We talked endlessly about the whole thing, but eventually she felt unable to deal with it, and what with other issues, the marriage slowly disintegrated. She said that she could have dealt with me falling in love with another woman, or even having a short-term affair with another woman, but ongoing and deepening feelings for another man was something she felt unequipped for. She even had me see a psychiatrist to see if I could remove my capacity to have sexual or amorous feelings for men. I knew this was never going to work, but I went along for her sake. As I said to her, even if that therapy had worked, I would still have been left with the capacity to be attracted to women, so there was still no guarantee she would always remain the only one for me. I can't really talk about her feelings, only what she told me about them.

In hindsight, what would I have done differently? Well, that means knowing a lot more about my life before I met her. In hindsight, I would never have married her in the first place, given that I had previously had a sexual history with other men. At least I would have told her more about my past, and let her make the decision. But we don't always make rational decisions when we're in love, do we. I thought I had put my past behind me - only it came back to bite me. It was very tough going there for a while, but now I have a freedom I had never imagined possible before. Freedom to be who I really am. This may not be true of everybody, but I believe that in general where an ostensibly straight adult becomes strongly attracted to somebody of the same sex, the roots of that attraction go back a long way, and there was always a gay part of their nature whether they were consciously aware of it or not. The social and biological imperatives being what they are, the lines do tend to get very murky, and heartache is often the result when people finally decide to live in accordance with their true nature. One day, maybe, it won't have to be that way. JackofOz 01:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Advice questions like this should really go to the expert: Dan Savage Nowimnthing 13:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

JackofOz, your honesty, forwardness and thoroughness are very much appreciated. I have heard numerous stories of women "experimenting," and this sort of behaviour seems to be far less prevalent with men. With men, sexuality seems to be rigidly defined, whereas with women there is an amount of leeway where sexuality is a gray, fuzzy line. Maybe it is more of a societal issue, where a man is a "faggot" as soon as he thinks about another man, yet a woman can get by as being simply confused. A single homosexual act can brand a man as a homosexual for his entire life. I feel that this is not a permanent decision in her life, she just happens to have fallen in love with a woman. Kind of like Susan from Seinfeld. Toko loko 16:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Toko loko. Yes, we do live in a society with shocking double standards. A lot of straight men are proud to admit they get off on watching lesbian porn, but they would rather cut off their right arm than watch male-male porn. Also, when two women walk hand in hand in public, nobody even raises an eyebrow - but if two guys did this in a non-gay area, they had better watch out.

I was involved in a workplace discussion recently about 2 guys who regularly have a pash outside our office in the morning. One works in the building, the other one works elsewhere, and this is their way of saying goodbye for the day. I said "There's nothing wrong with that", to be told vociferously "Nobody wants to see that sort of thing" (how they happen to know what everyone wants is beyond me, but that's another question). I countered with "What if it was a straight couple?". Then they changed their tune. Then, it became "It's not about them being gay. We don't have a problem with people being gay these days. But nobody wants to see any couple having a pash session in public. It's yuck". I said "What's yuck about it? Presumably you do this with your own partners/spouses, and you happily watch movies and TV where this activity is displayed all the time". Their arguments continued on, still on the lines of "Nobody wants to see this". I said "I haven't heard a single comment in recent days about the war in Lebanon, the ongoing atrocities in Darfur (which the media has also forgotten), or world poverty. You seem happy to just accept those things with never a murmur, but you have a huge issue with 2 people expressing love to each other. Where are your priorities? No wonder this place is called Victoria". The discussion then disintegrated. The point remains that if the couple had been a man and a woman, the discussion would never have even taken place, but they were gay so that's apparently something worthy of gossiping about and putting the people involved down. Dear me. JackofOz 21:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

If you were American, you would be even more frustrated by the debates on the Senate floor about gay marriage going on during these times of international crisis. I think they're over it for now, but they wasted a good week talking about shit that is completely trivial relative to the other problems in the world. You can trace the reasons for that back to politics; they are trying to rally their electorate for the November elections and guess what the electorate cares about?

Preserving the already questionable sancity of marriage from those dang ol' homosexuals. The funny bit is that anyone who thinks marriage is sacred among heterosexuals obviously hasn't looked at divorce statistics.

Anyway, I think this qualifies as a derail and does not belong on the reference desk, but thank you for the help and I wish you all the best.

Toko loko 13:04, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

JackofOz: You know, that's not one hundred percent true. In my high school, there are constantly people necking in the halls between classes. I've never had a problem with it, but there are a lot of people who do, and who use almost exactly those words(ie yuck, nobody wants to see that, etc). Homosexuality doesn't even enter into it, since most couples in our school seem to be straight. They're called Public Displays of Affection, and there are actually rules in the Student Handbook against them, though they're rarely much enforced. Black Carrot 05:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I think a high school is a different case. It's not the same as being out in a public area, it's a place where certain rules apply and parents have a right to believe their children are not being permitted to do stuff they wouldn't be permitted to do at home. Horny teenagers being the way they are, unwanted pregancies are just one of the issues that can result unless there are clear boundaries. But as a general position, I still fail to understand what is "yuck" about people kissing. That is an uneducated attitude one might expect from primary school children, not from older ones, and certainly not from supposedly mature adults. And it would be great if people could learn to confine expressions of feelings to their own, whatever they are, rather than getting into useless "nobody wants to see that" kind of talk. If people leave high school with that skill, they would have learned something very worthwhile indeed. JackofOz 13:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

You're not threatened by a woman, because obviously women aren't equal, right? You may not realize it, but you're actually being sexist. pckeffer

I had no idea. Well, shit happens.Toko loko 20:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

what a great discussion this was! my own take is that it all goes back to our Victorian (time period not melbourne etc-just to be clear) attitudes. womens sexuality has always been regarded as being passive. two women kissing is harmless fun where as to men kissing, whilst hot, is an active aberration of nature. as much as wed'd like to change these attitudes, it seems from out continued obsession with denying same-sex couples their rights and our adolescant fanstasies about sexy lesbians (as, maybe, is the case here), old habits die hard. plus ça change... 201.9.82.163 23:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Republic of Macedonia

1. From what year to what year was Macedonia part of Yugoslavia?--Patchouli 21:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• For 46 years; 1946-1992.--Patchouli 02:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This must be the most transparent case of sockpuppeteering I've ever seen. :) DirkvdM 08:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Was it?--Dweller 16:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe. --Dweller 16:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• After posting the question, I came back several times and saw no answer. Suddenly, it occurred to me to look it up in a dictionary; thence I found the answer.

It was a testament of a period of inactivity by the volunteers.--Patchouli 21:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

No skiing in Africa?

Is it true that once all the snow is gone from Mount Kilimanjaro , Africa will be the first continent that cannot be skied? Ohanian 22:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You don't necessarily need snow to ski. Also, artificial snow could be used Bwithh 23:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

They could build something like Ski Dubai. Wizrdwarts (T|C|E) 01:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

That's not true. There are many other mountains in Africa with snowfall (see, for example, the High Atlas range). — Lomn | Talk 14:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Can the Atlas range be skied? JackofOz 00:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe it's possible to ski on Kilimanjaro. Battle Ape 04:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

There's a ski resort in Morocco

List of ski areas lists one resort in South Africa and one in Lesotho. CDC (talk) 20:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Looking for a painting

looking for a famous painting:

it's got the big, yellow moon at the top, and a little shack on a small hill in the lower left corner. The sky is black with many stars. Wondering if anyone can think of the name for this, or send me a link. Thanks!

There is The Starry Night by Van Gogh - the sky isn't exactly black, but there is a big yellow moon and lots of stars, and if you look closely, there is in fact a little shack in the lower left corner. Just an idea. --Bmk 04:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I was thinking of. Thanks very much!