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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Gamal Abdel Nasser

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No consensus to promote at this time Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gamal Abdel Nasser

edit
Nominator(s): Al Ameer (talk)


Prior nomination here.

Along with a few other editors, I've been working on this article for a few years now and intend to nominate it for FAC soon. However, I would like an A-class review from this wikiproject beforehand to make sure it is ready for FA. The article's been a GA since 2009, but didn't pass it's initial A-class review in 2010. Since then, all the concerns of the previous reviews have been addressed, the article has been substantially expanded with new material and sources, and many parts have been rewritten/reorganized. Although it's still quite large (after all, Nasser was arguably the most monumental Arab political figure of the 20th-century and ruled Egypt for 16-18 years), the article's prose has been trimmed down to around 80 KB. It's second peer review (and a thorough copyedit from WP:Copyeditors) was concluded a few weeks ago and there has been additional followup at the talkpage. I looked over both the A-class and FA criteria, and believe the article now meets them both. --Al Ameer (talk) 00:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's a massive article, so might take me a while to get through it all! First pass comments. That said, it doesn't seem overly long for such an important figure.

  • Writings; is there nothing else you can say about his writing except list the books? Is there no commentary on his writings, for example?
  • Nasser strove to keep his career separate from his family life; "strove" implies a struggle, is there any commentary on the difficulty he had achieving this?
  • Personal Life; just checking... there is no extant criticism of his personal life?

Will add more later. --Errant (chat!) 10:57, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • There is available English-language info on his memoirs and the Philosophy of the Revolution. My only concern is article size, but if you think it's best to add commentary, I'll add a sentence or two for each. If the alternative is removing the section altogether, I don't mind doing that either. I clarified the part about his career/family life to be closer to the source. His personal life is probably the only part of his life where there is no extant criticism, even by his biggest detractors. He certainly didn't take care of his health though and had many ailments (I assume due to genetics and chain smoking). I look forward to the rest of your review. --Al Ameer (talk) 14:34, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check

  • File:Nasser_portrait2.jpg: when/where was this first published? Same for File:Gamal_Abdel_Nasser.jpg, File:NasserLawSchool.jpg, File:N-10009.jpg...actually, all works with the PD-Egypt tag - some include it, most don't
  • File:Turco-Egyptian_ka'im_makam.gif: source? What is the legal status of this design?
  • File:Nasser_cheered_by_supporters_in_1956.jpg: the provided source link gives a copyright notice for a non-CIA source
  • File:Egypt,_Syria_Merge_In_New_Arab_Republic.webm: licensing tag is wrong
  • File:Presidents_Gamal_Abdul_Nasser_and_Shukri_al-Quwatli_receiving_Yemeni_Crown_Prince_Mohammad_Badr_in_Damascus_in_February_1958_congratulating_them_on_formation_of_the_United_Arab_Republic.jpg: source link is broken
  • File:Nasser_and_Sallal_in_Sanaa.jpg also needs initial publication information
  • File:President_Nasser's_visit_to_the_Suez_front_with_Egypt's_top_military_commanders_during_the_War_of_Attrition.jpg: why does this have a CC tag?
  • File:Nimeiry,_Nasser_and_Gaddafi,_1969.jpg: this was photographed in Libya, not Egypt - check licensing and publication
  • File:Presidential_Standard_of_Egypt.svg is sourced to a redlink. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:53, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I believe I've now fixed the issues for all the photos of Nasser and replaced "File:N-10009.jpg" because I was unable to ascertain where it was taken (most likely Egypt, but possibly Sudan). With "File:Nasser_and_Sallal_in_Sanaa.jpg" I wasn't sure what you meant exactly, but I've clarified that the photo was taken in Yemen and adjusted the licensing accordingly. I don't know anything about the Presidential Standard of Egypt file (don't even know if it's a real thing) so I just removed it from the Egyptian Presidents Template. I also know nothing about the "Turco-Egyptian ka'im makam" file. Should I remove it as well? --Al Ameer (talk) 21:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually I missed "File:Nasser_cheered_by_supporters_in_1956.jpg". I removed the photo from the article for now. The photo appears to have been attributed to a source other than the CIA, but it was taken in Egypt. Does it still qualify for PD-Egypt if this is clarified? --Al Ameer (talk) 21:33, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -- I'll try and do a full review at some stage. In the meantime, you have a series of Harv errors, which you can check by installing this script. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:14, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lead/infobox
  • In the infobox, you could reduce the sea of blue by removing duplicate links; I'm also not a fan of little flag and rank icons, though I acknowledge they're not forbidden and some people seem to like the little pictures.
  • Generally no need to link modern-day countries, e.g. Britain, France, Israel, Syria, etc. These examples are just from the lead so you could check the rest of the article as well. Linking obsolete political entities such as the Soviet Union is fair enough though.
Nationalization of Suez Canal
  • the Egyptian people had a right to sovereignty over the waterway, especially since 120,000 Egyptians had died building it -- that figure seems much higher than I've heard elsewhere; does the source report Nasser himself using the figure?
Pan-Arabism and socialism
  • In January 1957, the US adopted the Eisenhower Doctrine and pledged to prevent the spread of communism and its "agents" in the Middle East. -- not sure what the justification is for scare quotes around "agents"; suggest simply drop the quotes or else use the term "proponents" or some such (without quotes).
  • Nasser initiated the Helwan steelworks, which were on their way to becoming Egypt's largest enterprise -- how could he "initiate" (i.e. start) something that was already "on the way"? Suggest either he must have supported/helped it as an existing enterprise, or he initiated and it subsequently became Egypt's largest enterprise.
  • In the fall of 1958 -- could we have more specific dating for those not in the same hemisphere as Egypt?
  • The new Iraqi and Syrian governments soon sent Nasser delegations to push for a new Arab union on 14 March. -- to clarify, did they send their delegations on 14 March, or did they want a new union to be proclaimed on 14 March?
  • He received the Hero of the Soviet Union award the same year. -- I feel this needs some explanation as we've previously highlighted his supposed opposition to communism and establishment of NAN, neither of which (one assumes) would've endeared him to the Soviets.
  • Done, ehh almost. I just removed the Hero award since I don't have anything else on it to make it relavant to the rest of the text. Unfortunately, I could not find the exact date to clarify "fall of 1958." Still working on that. --Al Ameer (talk) 02:41, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not fanatical about seasonal dates so don't sweat it too much. If you can just alter the Americanism to "autumn" it'll be okay with me (other reviewers may complain when it gets to FAC but I won't)... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:04, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Modernization efforts and internal dissent
  • In 1961, Nasser sought to firmly establish Egypt as the leader of the Arab world and to promote a second revolution in Egypt with the purpose of merging Islamic and socialist thinking to satisfy the will of the general populace. -- I assume what we're trying to say here is that Nasser saw himself as attempting to satisfy the will of the people? I draw the distinction because I'm sure all rulers see themselves as doing so, whether it's truly the case is another matter. For me, it would sound more neutral if we simply dropped "to satisfy the will of the general populace".
  • Nasser guided al-Azhar to create changes in its syllabus... -- I don't have access to the source but is "guided" a euphemism for "ordered"? I ask particularly because soon after you say he "forced" the organisation to issue a fatwā.
  • Sometime during this year, Nasser suffered and survived a heart attack. -- since we don't seem to have a specific date for this, and you mention it in the Personal life section (along with another such incident), I'd suggest dropping it from here.
Six-Day War
  • In early 1967, the Soviet Union issued multiple warnings to Nasser of an impending Israeli attack on Syria -- spotchecking Kadil, he describes the Soviet reports as "unconfirmed", and appears to have Nasser's man Fawzy declaring that the reports of Israel mobilising against Syria were "baseless".
Legacy
  • Nasser transitioned Egypt from British-occupation to serving as an influential power in the developing world. -- I have a couple of concerns with this sentence after spotchecking it. Firstly the expression is quite similar to part of a sentence in the source and might be paraphrased better. Secondly as written in the article it suggests that Egypt was occupied by the British when Nasser came to power, which I don't think is quite correct is it? I gather there was British military presence and British influence, but that's not what I understand by the term "occupied". In any case I think the source gives credit to Nasser for making Egypt independent but the transition from British "occupation" seems to be mentioned in passing rather than directly credited to Nasser...
  • Egypt experienced a golden age of culture during his presidency -- "golden age" is a bit peacockish, although I've no objections if it's a quote from a source and you can attribute it.
Personal life
  • His social status was still well below the wealthy Egyptian elite, and his resentment of those born into wealth and power continued to grow. -- I think this is the first time we've specifically mentioned his resentment of the elite (I recall us mentioning resentment of the British) and wonder if this should be touched on earlier in the article to help explain his motivations.
Images/sources
  • I'll rely on Nikki's image check and hope she'll be able to complete a source review as well... ;-)
  • I notice in the Al-Azhar subsection that you could consolidate references, i.e. in both paragraphs two consecutive sentences have exactly the same citation. There may not be a rule against this but I think the fewer citations one can get away with, the better the text flows.
  • Given my few spotchecks of sources suggested some issues, I think the article would benefit from a fuller spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing. Alternatively you could revisit the article yourself based on the sort of things I've identified so far in that respect.
Structure/content
  • Structure seems logical and in line with similar bios.
  • Content-wise there's a lot of detail but I don't find it overwhelming and, while I don't claim to be an expert on Nasser or Egyptian history, the major facts presented in the article seem in line with the general wisdom as I understand it, and the tone appears mainly neutral except where queried above.
  • You have a number of duplicate links that you can check with this script. Some may be justified owing to the length of the article and the resultant space between links, but pls review in any case.
Summary
  • I've copyedited as I went through the article, so pls let me know if I've misinterpreted or broken anything. All in all, this is a mammoth effort that I hope will attract more comment. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:06, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I really appreciate the review and extra c/e. Czar and I had been discussing the length issue during the peer review and copyedit. We brought it down to 78 KB from 95 KB, but 78 is still pretty large. Once this review is finished (pass or fail), I plan to nominate it for FA in its present structure so hopefully size won't be a make or break issue in that process. I'm in my fall semester now and have been bogged down in study and testing (that's why I've been delayed in my replies) so I might not be able to make significant changes to the article anytime soon if something like creating a "Presidency of Gamal Abdel Nasser" article would be required. As for the points you brought up above, I think I've addressed them, but someone might have to do the spotcheck if necessary. --Al Ameer (talk) 02:41, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, spotchecks are carried out by reviewers, my suggestion was that you yourself might want to revisit anything that was in the back of your mind from editing that could perhaps use some further paraphrasing or tweaking for accuracy. However there's no particular need for that if a reviewer carries out a decent spotcheck; I may not be able to myself but I might ask around as it would be good to get out of the way before you look at FAC. Anyway, thanks for making those changes; I enjoyed reading the article and hope that with further comment it will pass this review and give you a good lead-in for FAC. Pending source review and spotcheck I'm giving it my provisional support. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:04, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source spotcheck -- Sorry for the delay, I've ended up doing a further spotcheck myself as my preferred candidate for the task was unavailable; note that I've had to restrict myself to publications available on preview at GoogleBooks...

  • FN40: The WP article states Nasser had also felt bitter that his brigade had not been relieved despite the resilience it displayed. -- I'm sure this is correct but the source doesn't express it quite this way, rather it states that the defenders of Falluja were embittered, and they gathered under Nasser's leadership to instigate the coup of '52.
  • FN58: Okay.
  • FN59: Okay.
  • FN222: Okay.
  • FN236c: The WP article states Observers noted that the declaration signaled an important shift from political repression to liberalization, although its promises would largely go unfulfilled. The source states The March 1968 declaration signaled a second major shift under Nasser from repression to liberalization, although its most basic promises, like those of March 1954, went unfulfilled. -- First of all, if you say "observers noted" then I'd assume you meant contemporary commentators, reporters, public figures, etc. In fact this is the observation of an author in 2007. Secondly, the phrasing in the source and the WP article are a bit too close for comfort as far as I'm concerned. I'd suggest either recasting the sentence entirely or else quoting/attributing the source passage. Thirdly, isn't the source, Rethinking Nasserism, co-edited by Onn Winckler?
  • FN274c: Okay.
  • FN293a: Can't see any mention of the New Wafd Party or Jamal Badawi on the cited page.

My conclusion from the above and from a few instances during my general review when accuracy or paraphrasing of sources seemed in question is that, while I haven't discovered major problems, there are enough niggles that I think you need to walk through the article and double-check sourcing/paraphrasing yourself before submitting for FAC. I realise this a daunting task in such a large article, and you may not have added and sourced all the material, but when you nominate an article for ACR or FAC you're taking responsibility for its prose, structure, coverage, image licensing and referencing, and any problems associated with them. By the way, while I was spotchecking, I noticed a few more style points:

  • On 25 January 1952, a confrontation between British forces and police at Ismailia resulted in the deaths of forty Egyptian policemen, provoking riots in Cairo the next day which left 76 people dead. -- pls go through the article and ensure consistent representation of two-digit (or larger) numbers.
  • loosely-structured -- generally, double-barrelled adjectives where the first word ends in "ly" are not hyphenated, again pls check throughout.

Subject to the above style points being addressed, I'm still happy with the article as far as prose, structure, coverage, and supporting materials go but I can't help feeling that a more comprehensive spotcheck, which I can't supply, would reveal more things that need finetuning. I reiterate that this article is a great undertaking and, I think, deserving ultimately of A-Class and FA status, but I just can't support it all the way at this stage. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:57, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ian. Thank you for being so diligent with this review. I agree that these points need to be addressed prior to the article being promoted. Anotherclown (talk) 10:12, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Given the issues raised and the length of time it will likely take to work through I have now requested the review be closed with no consensus to promote at this stage - here [1]. This article is very good in my opinion but still needs some work to ensure it is complete. Of course there is nothing stopping the article from being re-nominated once the checks have been completed and I would be more than happy to review it again at this time. Anotherclown (talk) 08:41, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. Feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

  • "one of the towering political figures of modern Middle Eastern history and politics in the 20th century.": How about "one of the towering Middle Eastern political figures of the 20th century" or "one of the towering political figures of the 20th century"? I'm not sure what "modern" means here.
  • "only one of two honorable Arab military actions": Not sure what this is saying.
  • "The apparent disconnect between the population and the palace": "disconnect" is informal in this context, and I'm not sure what it means here.
  • "began a struggle to reduce its influence over his activities": Not sure what this is saying ... you don't need a political struggle to change your own activities. What was the nature of the influence that he was trying to change?
  • This is a very long article, and I'm sorry I don't have time to finish it. I copyedited down to Revolution. - Dank (push to talk) 02:01, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hey Dank, I hope I addressed your concerns. The last one about the Brotherhood will require more research since the source I use is a bit vague with the early links between Nasser and the Brotherhood. I've been busy with classes lately, but will look into other sources as soon as possible. --Al Ameer (talk) 01:23, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentsSupport
    • Technical review:
      • A couple of dab links [2]:
        • Mukhabarat
        • Nasser (disambiguation)
      • External links check reveals one dead link [3]:
        • Mass Mediations: New Approaches to Popular Culture in the Middle East and Beyond (info) [uark.edu]
      • Some of the images lack Alt Text so you might consider adding it for consistency [4] (suggestion only - not an ACR req).
      • The Citation Check Tool reveals a couple of minor issues with reference consolidation:
        • {{Harvnb|Dawisha|2009|p=191}} (Multiple references contain the same content)
        • Dawisha191 (Multiple references are using the same name)
        • Aburish310 (Multiple references are using the same name)
      • Images review has been completed above.
      • The Earwig Tool reveal no issues with copyright violation or close paraphrasing [5] (no action req'd).
      • A large number of duplicate links per WP:REPEATLINK:
        • Royal Military Academy
        • 1936 Anglo-Egyptian Treaty
        • Egyptian_Revolution_of_1952
        • Alexandria
        • Umm Kulthum
        • Helwan
        • Soviet Union
        • Aswan Dam
        • Saudi royal family
        • Khaled Mohieddin
        • Algeria
        • Palestinian Fedayeen
        • Sayyed Qutb
        • Straits of Tiran
        • Zakaria Mohieddin
        • Khartoum
        • Arab Socialist Union
        • Hussein el-Shafei
        • Beirut
        • Helwan
        • Tawfiq al-Hakim
        • Tunisia
        • Sudan
        • Abdullah al-Sallal
        • North Yemen
        • Muammar Gaddafi
        • arteriosclerosis
      • A few of the references are lacking places of publishing.
      • Will read over this today and provide a full review afterwards. Anotherclown (talk) 00:01, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Article review:
        • "Nasser received a cephalic graze wound from a policeman's bullet...", might be more accessibly worded as "Nasser received a graze to the head from a policeman's bullet..." or something like that.
        • This seems awkward: "Nasser's political activity grew more dominant throughout his school years, such that he only attended 45 days of classes during his last year of secondary school." Perhaps consider something like: "Nasser's involvement in political activity increased throughout his school years, such that he only attended 45 days of classes during his last year of secondary school..."
        • I am confused by what these sentences mean: " He strongly objected to the 1936 Anglo-Egyptian Treaty, which stipulated the continued presence of British military bases in the country and was backed almost unanimously by Egypt's political forces.[8] Consequently, political unrest in Egypt declined significantly and Nasser resumed his studies at al-Nahda,[16] where he received his leaving certificate later that year." Why did political unrest decline if the opposition to the treaty was so widespread?
        • "In 1937, Nasser applied to the Royal Military Academy for army officer training..." is his motivation for joining the army known?
        • Suggest reordering this sentence: "After graduating from the academy in July 1938,[8] he was posted to the town of Mankabad near his native Beni Mur, and was commissioned a second lieutenant in the infantry." He would have been commissioned on graduating, then posted, not the other way around. Consider instead: "After graduating from the academy in July 1938, he was commissioned a second lieutenant in the infantry, and posted to the town of Mankabad near his native Beni Mur."
        • Wording seems a little awkward here: "...Nasser stayed in touch with the group's members primarily through Amer, who continued to discover interested officers...", consider instead: "Nasser stayed in touch with the group's members primarily through Amer, who continued to seek out interested officers..." or something like that.
        • "...but was ultimately refused entry to the AHC's forces by the Egyptian government for unclear reasons...." → "...but was ultimately refused entry to the AHC's forces by the Egyptian government for reasons that were unclear...."
        • "He sent emissaries to forge an alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood in October 1948...", wikilink Muslim Brotherhood here (it is previously linked only in the lead).
        • "...concluded that the agenda of the Brotherhood was not compatible with his nationalism...." do we know why?
        • Repetitive language here: "By then, the organization had expanded to around ninety members; according to one member..." ("member" used twice in the same sentence), perhaps reword?
        • "On 25 January 1952, a confrontation between British forces and the police of Ismailia killed forty Egyptian policemen..." consider instead: "On 25 January 1952, a confrontation between British forces and police at Ismailia resulted in the deaths of forty Egyptian policemen..."
        • "...made songs praising Nasser's nationalism..." consider instead: "...wrote songs praising Nasser's nationalism."
        • Colourful prose here: "Nasser's Bandung efforts devotedly sought a proclamation for the avoidance of international defense alliances..." consider something like: "At Bandung Nasser's sought a proclamation for the avoidance of international defense alliances..."
        • typo here I think: "...his promotion of pan-Arabism was viewed as a threat pro-Western states in the region...", consider "... his promotion of pan-Arabism was viewed as a threat to pro-Western states in the region..."
        • "...In September, Turkish troops massed along their Syrian border..." → "...In September, Turkish troops massed along the Syrian border..."
        • missing word here I think: "...and allowed broadcast of anti-colonial propaganda from Cairo...", consider instead "...and allowed the broadcast of anti-colonial propaganda from Cairo..."
        • some redundancy here: "...Amer's increasing autonomy forced Nasser, who had already had diabetes..." → "...Amer's increasing autonomy forced Nasser, who already had diabetes..."
        • Repetitive language: "Nasser refused the call[208][209] upon determination that the air force lacked pilots and Amer's handpicked officers lacked competence." (specifically "lacked" twice) Consider instead: "Nasser refused the call upon determination that the air force lacked pilots and Amer's handpicked officers were incompetent."
        • "...causing a large exodus of Egyptians from that area....", suggest more simply: "...causing an exodus of Egyptians from that area."
        • I have no expertise in this area, so will confine my cmts mostly to prose. That said I get the feeling that the article covers the topic fairly well (other the few areas above where I have asked for some clarification) and I couldn't see any obvious issues with bias / balance etc.
        • The article covers a lot of ground and is quite large, but it seems to do so using summary style and it didn't seem to be excessive.
        • Given the nature of the subject (a major political figure) and the events he was involved in I think the article does a fairly good job of presenting these appropriately and in good faith.
        • Only possible issue I see is that the criticism section could possibly be expanded (although don't really know of major criticism that is missing given my unfamiliarity with the subject). Happy to accept it as is if this is reflective of the literature though.
        • This is an important article and I am impressed with what you have produced so far. Unfortunately I have only been able to go through it fairly quickly (working tonight and dealing with a few issues by phone), and I am not really familiar with the subject. Happy to discuss any issues that you disagree with. Will have another look once you have responded to my cmts.
        • All the best with the project. Anotherclown (talk) 11:13, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Thanks for the review and the suggestions. I believe I've fixed/addressed the points you brought up above. Concerning the technical review, the first disambiguation link is just a hatnote, but I think it's necessary to keep as long as "Nasser" redirects to the article. The one about "mukhabarat" is trickier and I'm thinking about just removing the sentence altogether. When it's used in this instance it's not describing a particular Egyptian intelligence agency, but the state of domestic espionage in general. For the prose review, I took all of your suggestions. As for criticism, it was a bit longer before, but as with many sections in the article, I reduced it per the peer review/copyedit that was undertaken prior to this A-class nomination. Everything that was rid of was redundant though. I'm sure there's more criticism of Nasser out there, but I believe the major criticisms directly related to him have been addressed. --Al Ameer (talk) 01:23, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • P.S. Actually, I forgot to add his motivation for entering the military academy. Will add it as soon as I can find it. --Al Ameer (talk) 03:07, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • Those changes are looking good so far. Pls ping me if you can find any info on his reason for joining the Army and once you have finished adding the locations to the references and I'll have a final look. Cheers. Anotherclown (talk) 10:34, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That looks fine. I added the missing publication locations. One last issue: there is some inconsistency in the presentation of ISBNs. Some use hyphens and others do not. Can this be rectified? Anotherclown (talk) 10:11, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments: G'day, I had a quick look and it looks quite impressive. I have a couple of minor suggestions:
    • please check for consistency of English variation. I found some US and some British spelling, for instance: "kilometre" (British), but "defense" (US);
    • repetition: "After briefly returning from Sudan, Nasser returned in September 1942.." (returning and returned);
    • "within the Egyptian Armed Forces's..." --> "within the Egyptian Armed Force's";
    • "Nationalization of Suez Canal" --> "Nationalization of the Suez Canal";
    • "Nasser's personal hobbies included photography, chess, magazines in Arabic, English, and French, American films, and classical music" --> "Nasser's personal hobbies included photography, playing chess, reading magazines in Arabic, English, and French, American films, and listening to classical music"?
    • If you wouldn't mind looking into these points, I will come back try to come back and have a more thorough look a little later. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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