Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Sandbox/Succession/Archive 2

Eastern Africa

With the updated date for GEA rupie that I put in, I think this whole section is ready to go into the articles. What do you think? Ingrid 01:47, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I also confirmed that East African rupee started in 1906 with the coin catalog. And corrected the predecessor of EA shilling for Zanzibar to Zanzibar rupee. Somehow both of us overlooked this mistake. Also added ratio to British shilling/pound

Need a stub for Zanzibar rupee. --Chochopk 04:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Now that I look into it a little more, the Zanzibar situation seems complex (just from GFD, my favorite source for a quick overview). I'd like to understand the political situation a bit more. I'll do some research and get back -- do you know a good political geography reference? Preferably on the web, but I'd buy a book if you know one. I used to think I could do this succession stuff using what's already in Wikipedia, mistaking quantity of information for quality information. Ingrid 15:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is East Africa ready to go? --Chochopk 14:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I thought so. I just wanted to confirm the dates on the switch from Italian lira to Italian East African lira, since TMMH has it as 1936 for Eritrea but 1938 for Ethiopia. I wanted to understand if that is an error or if it was introduced at different times in different areas. Unfortunately, this is one of the currencies that I can't find in SCWC (Gulf rupee is another). Under Italian Somaliland though, it shows an Italian Somaliland rupia from 1909 to 1924, replaced by Italian Somaliland lira for 1925 only. (Actually, in the index of currencies, it says that Somalia used a "lire" which I know is plural of "lira", but others are listed as "lira", so I don't know if sometimes there's such a thing as 1 lire. So, if you can figure out anything about these issues, let me know, otherwise I'll see what I can find on the web. Ingrid 00:31, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely want to get these out. I'm still not completely satisfied with Zanzibari rupee. You put something about Kenyan coins. I asked "Would Kenyan coins before 1921 be East African florins? Or was there another currency in use there?" Ingrid 02:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SCWPM says the earliest Italian East African lira was dated 1938. And sample image can be found here. Normally, the actual issue date is later or equal to the print date. The reverse is very rare. I cannot think of any example except the case where a commemorative millennium note was sold in 1999.

I don't think there is such thing as "1 lire". All the 1 lira notes I can find are "1 lira". I'm not sure what kind of index you were referring to, so I assume it's "coin denomination index". Mine lists Italy, San Marino, Vatican City under both lira and lire, while Italian Somaliland only under lire. The most plausible explanation is that there's never a coin in 1 lira value for Italian Somaliland (nor banknote).

Sorry if I overlooked some of your questions. As you know, there are a lot going on here. I got the part about Kenya coins being used in Zanzibar from TMMH. I believe that refers to the East African currencies, as there is really no "Kenyan currency" before 1966. By the way, a stub is created for Zanzibari rupee. --Chochopk 08:33, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's easy to miss something. That's one reason I think it will be great to get this huge section out of here. I don't know why the Italian East African lira was so confusing to me before. It makes sense now. If you approve how I changed Zanzibari rupee, I think we're ready. Only let me add in Italian Somaliland rupia (my time is up right now -- time to play computer games with my daughter). Ingrid 17:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I'm satisfied. I'm starting the move, leaving Zanzibari rupee and Italian East Africa rupia for your review (move them if you want, or I'll get them later, when you say it's time). Ingrid

Just a minor caveat, should we call it "Italian East African rupia" or "Italian Somali rupia" or "Italian Somaliland rupia"?. And we definitely need more stubs to make these links flow. We also need to start drafting boxes for Maria Theresa thaler and other commonly used currencies of the time. It would be best if we do this now when our memory/knowledge is still fresh. Could you review the part on Ethiopia and Eritrea? Oh, and one more thing, we need to push all the way back for those 2 countries, e.g. what comes before Abyssinian talari? --Chochopk 20:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. I don't know why I called it Italian East African rupia. The coins say "Somalia Italiana" which is generally translated as "Italian Somaliland", so I guess it should be "Italian Somaliland rupia" or "Italian Somali rupia". I could go either way, although I think I'm leaning towards Italian Somaliland (since Somali sort of implies Somalia, but calling it Italian Somaliland instead of Italian Somalia seems like it was done arbitrarily anyway). What do you think?

Also, when I did my first succession box for EAshilling, I used "Somali somalo", which should match rupia whichever we decide.

While I agree that dealing with MTT and Indian rupee now might be wise, I really don't want to :( I've been wondering if it would be a good enough start to simply link to currencies that were used after, without trying to be as precise as with more modern succession boxes. That way, you get the information of which areas used them, but our job is much easier (and if we ever wanted to go back in and make it better, refreshing our memories would be easier).

I will look at Ethiopia & Eritrea now. Ingrid 22:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They look great. I added a bit of info about Eritrea into the Ethiopian birr box, so that if someone was following the trail from EA shilling for Eritrea, they wouldn't be lost. As far as what came before the Abyssinian talari, it looks like MTT (from GFD). And I wonder if the reference in GFD to French franc is because of Djibouti, which is in the same region, and I've seen it referenced a few times, but have not looked into it at all. I think it was called French Somaliland for a time. Maybe I'll tackle that next -- because I don't have anything else to do :) Ingrid 22:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed Italian East African rupia to Italian Somaliland rupia (let me know if you'd prefer something else). Somali somalo should probably also be changed to Italian Somaliland somalo. I think they should be the same, but could be talked into Italian Somali X, but probably not Somali X, although you could try. If you agree, I'll fix Somali somalo and what links to it. Ingrid 02:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on the use of "Italian Somaliland rupia", as today's Somaliland's currency is called "Somaliland shilling". I started the boxes for MMT. I also want to start German mark and Ottoman currency. They are inevitable if we want to complete the Balkans. But I'm too tired. I worked 12 hours today. --Chochopk 09:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

German East African rupie

TODO: look up the coin catalog for early 1900's

29th edition (2002) shows coins from 1890-1916. I'm updating the box to show 1890. It also talks about German East Africa as Tanganyika only (in the section on Tanzania), and mentions the following dates: controlled area in 1884, protectorate 1891, colony 1897. They are a great source for the coins themselves, but their history is sometimes a bit fuzzy (different places in the book may have different dates even though they're talking about the same thing). The section on Rwanda says that it was "discovered" 1894, and became part of GEA 1898. The Burundi section mentions "the 1890s" as the date of joining GEA. GFD for each of Rwanda/Burundi/Tanganyika splits into two rows, one for 1890-1906, the next for 1906-1916, but all the codes for both rows are the same (they also did that for Mozambique in 1975 which is when the metica was considered as a replacement currency but not adopted, so something may have happened then which didn't change the currency) Ingrid 01:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

box moved to German East African rupie

East African rupee

See East African rupee
box moved.
Note: around this time, 1 rupee = 1 florin = 2 East African shilling = 2 British shilling

East African florin

See East African florin
box moved.
Note: around this time, 1 rupee = 1 florin = 2 East African shilling = 2 British shilling

Zanzibari rupee

Can we replace the sentence of concurrent currencies with specific currency links? Ingrid 03:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Some sources on Zanzibar political history:

GFD says:
Tanzania (Zanzibar) used Zanzibari rupee 1908-1936
Zanzibar Sultanate used Zanzibari ryal 1883-1890
Tanzania (Zanzibar) used Indian rupee 1890-1936
British Zanzibar used Indian rupee, Maria Theresa thaler, Zanzibari rupee 1890-1936
British Zanzibar used EA shilling 1936-1964
I don't know what Tanzania (Zanzibar) refers to. The zanzinet site I found explains how the Sultan and British basically ruled at the same time until 1890, so that part makes sense. I didn't find tables of monetary history helpful. SCWC says that Zanzibar was the name of the sultanate which included the Zanzibar and Kenya protectorates, and also the name of part of British East Africa. Independent of Oman in 1860 and under British control 1890. Independent 1963. It doesn't show the Zanzibari rupee, just the Zanzibari ryal, with only 1908 date (and only cent, 10 cents, 20 cents). Also, I see that the Tanzanian shilling is actually a shilingi (singular and plural). Kenya and Uganda were both shilling. And I thought this stuff was done. I'm not sure what to do with the Zanzibar stuff I found. My inclination is to ignore the Tanzania (Zanzibar) stuff since I don't understand it, and incorporate the rest. What's your source for the Kenyan coins. Ingrid 17:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the Zanzibar coins listed in the SCWC are subunits of rupee, not ryal. Both SCWC and GFD Excel data say 1 ryal = 136 pysa, and 1 Zanzibar (not Indian) rupee = 100 cents.

According to these sources, it seems to be conclusive that

Indian rupee was used between 1890 - 1907.
Maria Theresa thaler also used 1890 - 1907.
Zanzibari ryal used beween 1883 - 1890, which = 2 INR

Some questions unanswered

Was Indian rupee still used after Zanzibari rupee was issued in 1908?
Was MMT used outside of the period 1890 – 1907? The Table also includes use of MTT from 1883 - 1890, while GDF includes 1908 - 1936.

Regardless of the answers, it should not affect the table below. It would only affect the crazy table of INR above. Should we call this currency Zamzibari rupee? As it is the adjective form of Zanzibar. I use 2004 edition of SCWC, for 1901-present. --Chochopk 06:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is it rial or ryal? GFD uses y. I've switched Zanzibar -> Zanzibari, and will try to incorporate everything we know into this table. I am not confident about the changes I've made, so please check them and change as needed (also changing EA shilling). Ingrid 17:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Looking through the monetary history table for Africa (which I don't often use because I don't like the format, but I realize it's a great source, and now that I'm getting used to it, I like it more), it mentions that the EA currency board was responsible for Eritrea and Ethiopia (also former Italian colonies) during and after WWII. What a mess! Ingrid 17:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would Kenyan coins before 1921 be East African florins? Or was there another currency in use there?

Searching GFD for XEAS (EA shilling) shows that this is it.

box moved to Zanzibari rupee Ingrid 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Abyssinian talari

box moved and Abyssinian talari stub created (it's a really bare stub). Ingrid 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ethiopian talari

Notes from TMMH (regarding Ethiopia and Eritrea politics, haven't gotten to the money yet -- not incorporated below):
(strike out below = taken care of)
Ethiopia

Political
- Ethiopia independent until May 35, conquered by Italy and joined to Italian East Africa
- ~~taken by UK Apr-May 41~~
- unclear when independent
Currency
- monetary union with Eritrea 15 Sep 52
- MTT used from about 1800
- Ethiopian money from 1906 (GFD says 1893 & calls it Ethiopian silver talari)
- Italian East African lira 1936
- after capture by UK, EA shilling introduced, MTT, Indian rupee, Egyptian currency legal tender. Indian rupee may have ceased to be legal tender around 1942.
- 1945, Ethiopian dollar introduced.
- dates from GFD: MTT 1800-1945, ES talari 1893-1936, IEA lira 1936-1941, EA shilling 1941-1945. No mention of Indian rupee or Egyptian currency. Does mention French franc, 1908-1928, no explanation.
- ~~TMMH: 1945-now: Ethiopian birr (Ethiopian dollar)~~
- Wiki & Catalog: Ethiopian dollar 1945-1976, English translation change to birr in 1976 (I tried to decode the Amharic alphabets on the notes before and after 1976. Both seems to be "birr" in Amharic, which I believe looks like "∩C" )

Eritrea

Political
- Italy held Eritrea from sometime in the 1800s (1889 is when Ethiopia recognized Protectorate).
- ~~Eritrea taken by UK in 41~~
- ~~Eritrea controlled by UK until monetary union of 52~~
- ~~Wiki & CIA: In 1952, a United Nations resolution to federate Eritrea with Ethiopia went into effect.~~
- ~~Independence 1993~~
Currency
- MTT widely used since 1790
- Italian Eritrean tallero 1890-1898, not widely accepted (at par with MTT but not same silver weight)
- ~~Italian lira 1922-capture~~
- used Egyptian pound and EA shilling after capture
- Italian money demonitized 1942
- Indian rupees no longer legal tender in 1942
- Egyptian pound phased out (no date)
- ~~used Ethiopian money starting 52~~
- ~~GFD says used Ethiopian dollar starting 1945 (other dates don't match TMMH, but I trust TMMH more)~~

box moved and stub article created. Ingrid 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Italian East African lira

Note: where does the ca. 1938 date come from? It's listed as 1936 for Ethiopia. Probably the same for all of IEA, no?

TMMH: The Banca d'Italia issued Italian lira notes from its Mogadishu branch. It was reduced to pure central banking business in Italy in 1938 but was allowed to continue commercial banking overseas (Italy, Law No. 141, 7 March 1938; Law No. 636, 7 April 1938, cited in Banca Nazionale Somala annual report 1960/1961: 165). The Banca d'Italia made special issues of lira notes for Italy's East African colonies dated from 14 June 1938-14 January 1939 (Italy, act of 8 August 1938, cited on the notes themselves). under Monetary authorities: Italian Somaliland and united Somalia. Earliest banknote listed in SCWPM: 1938. --Chochopk 15:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Italian Somaliland rupia

box moved and stub article created. Ingrid 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

East African shilling

See East African shilling

What do you mean by "(Aden) Indian independence from United Kingdom in 1951"? --Chochopk 15:00, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I'd replied to this already -- must have gotten cleared by DS. Anyway, what I meant was that when India became independent, the Indian rupee was no longer a British currency, and thus was no longer used in British colonies. I think I read that in Wikipedia somewhere. Perhaps on one of the Aden pages. That doesn't make sense though, since the Indian rupee was used elsewhere after independence. I need to find where I read that and fix it. I've taken it out below. Ingrid 19:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See also Yemeni rial and Yemeni dinar. I'm still having trouble figuring out what was going on, with Aden especially (politically, not just as far as currency goes). It seems every time I read something new, I learn something new. Like the fact that there wasn't really an Aden Protectorate. There was an East Aden Protectorate and a West Aden Protectorate (which the Aden Protectorate article mentions, but I'm still not sure it's right to talk about one protectorate). Although that seems to be done with other protectorates as well -- like when I was reading about Zanzibar and couldn't keep the protectorates straight. Here's another source (not that it says anything new about Aden): http://www.al-bab.com/yemen/soc/banknotes2.htm I guess this is the best we can do, but it bothers me to feel like it's not really right (especially since it wasn't that long ago).

I did not verify the correctness on the political situation on Aden (1951-65). I trust that you will do a good job. I did, however, verify the others. I will have to allocate some time on Gulf ruppe, as I haven't started looking at it at all. --Chochopk 07:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Any thoughts on Ahmadi rial vs. Imadi rial? See my discussion with Dove1950 on talk:Yemeni rial. I don't know how the currencies should be named, and would appreciate your thoughts. Ingrid 00:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

box moved to East African shilling

Ethiopian birr

When I first read this sentence "The federation was dissolved in 1960, with Eritrea becoming part of Ethiopia", the first thing that came to my mind was like what happened to Czechoslovakia in 1993. I think the best wording would be something like "fully integrated". --Chochopk 01:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yours is better. I meant to mention that I couldn't thinnk of a better way to say it, but I didn't like it my way either. Ingrid 01:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Better still. I think it's ready. Ingrid 02:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like the way it is --Chochopk 09:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

box moved and cited. Ingrid 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eritrean nakfa

box moved and cited. Ingrid 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Southern Africa

I think these are ready to go. What do you think? Ingrid 03:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Added ratio to British pound. --Chochopk 05:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

South African rand

See South African rand
Facts verified. --Chochopk 15:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lesotho and Swaziland issued their own currencies some time after 1961. So those 2 currencies are preceded by South African rand. So does it make South African rand succeeded by those 2 currencies?
GFD: "A set of commemorative coins was issued for Lesotho in 1966 and the first coins were issued for circulation in 1979."
GFD: "Swaziland issued some commemorative coins in 1968, but the first circulating coins weren’t issued until 1974"
--Chochopk 15:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is as good as I can make it. I'm not clear on the history of Lesotho and Swaziland. This is a bit of a guess. I'm also still not thrilled with Namibia. It's a complicated situation, and I think this is the best I can manage. Please improve it if you can. Ingrid 21:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This box is driving me crazy! Do you think it looks better this way or with the missing line between SWA/Namibia and SA as in the previous version? I think Namibia should be treated as a colony of SA even though the situation is more complicated than that. It wasn't officially annexed, so I don't think it should be treated as part of SA (which I originally did, before I understood the situation better -- or at least I think I understand it better now). Ingrid 04:30, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I change the starting date of Lesotho loti to 1980 per TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY: AFRICA (although the banknotes were dated 1979).

ZAR continues to circulate unofficially in Swaziland

South Africa occupied the German colony of South-West Africa (in German, Deutsch-Südwestafrika) in 1915 during World War I. On December 17, 1920, South Africa undertook administration of South West Africa under the terms of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations and a Mandate agreement by the League Council. --Chochopk 16:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like the way it is now. --Chochopk 16:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it looks better as just South-West Africa (during the occupation/mandate period). The reason I included Namibia is that at some point during the disputed time (1944-1990), while SA still maintained control, the UN and others referred to it as Namibia. See History of Namibia. Of course, we don't have to be 100% complete here -- we're just trying to describe the currency, and your way definitely looks better. Ingrid 03:25, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's almost ready to roll out. What do you think about including "date" in addition to year? (of course we don't want to include date if unsure) (see example below on Vietnam and Taiwan) --Chochopk 03:51, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I prefer just year, especially on the big ones, which already have so much information. I'd prefer to see specific date in the text of the article. However, it wouldn't bother me if you feel strongly that it should be there. If we do include date, I think we should pick a consistent style, regardless of what the locals would use.

I found the random article in South America which I'd put a succession box into. It's Chilean escudo. I've replaced it with the new format. Whoever wrote the article did just use "It replaced the peso at a rate of 1000:1 and was itself replaced by a new peso, also at a rate of 1000:1" (presumably new = 1, old = 1000). So, do you think we should have variables for "ratio new" and "ratio old"? I'm thinking that's the best way to get consistency (whether we ever decide to switch the order or not).

One last question. The n-before template has a start row |- marker. The n-after also has this marker. It means there are fewer places where we have to include them manually (a good thing), but it also means that if you need to add formatting (which I've had to do in two tables now) to make a row take up some space, it's hard to know where to put it. I'm thinking of taking it out of n-after, but that would mean fixing all existing tables and seeing more |-'s. I'm not sure it's worth the effort for a relatively rare situation. What do you think?

I think that's all the open issues/questions. If I've missed something, please mention it here. Ingrid 17:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not feel strongly about dates, unless it's in the near future, near past, or during hyper inflation period. I picked Vietnam and Taiwan for no particular reasons. Just to demonstrate. Perhaps we should put a range in the guide line.
Regarding ratio new, ratio old, what if someone wants to include something like 1 shilling = 0.5 rupee = 1 British shilling (using a strong currency as a reference)?
I'll try to look into other issues later. I just got my new computer set up. --Chochopk 12:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(re ratio new/old) I think you'd mentioned that possibility before, and I just forgot. You're right. And if it's not done consistently, it should still be clear as long as rand/pound/dollar/whatever is included.

I updated Template:n-start/Instructions to give more specific formatting advice for dates. I arbitrarily picked the form 18 January 1963 to recommend, but feel free to change it -- I don't care as long as we recommend something. In fact, feel free to update any of it if you see a need. I've got it watched and will let you know if I disagree. Ingrid 19:29, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

moved box to South African rand Ingrid 03:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lesotho loti

moved box to article

source: [1]

Swaziland lilangeni

source: [2] Global Financial Data says the ZAR is not legal tender in Swaziland anymore. Need to research if Swaziland is still in CMA and confirm, also check if it was at par (not mentioned at GFD). Also apply this info to SA rand table.

Still at par