Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lutheranism

Lutheran Music

I have a background in Lutheran church music and can start an article on it. I am looking for some feedback concerning the scope for the article. The article could focus on:

• Lutheran composers
• Musical compositions used in Lutheran liturgy
• Lutheran hymnody
• History of Lutheran music

My idea right now is to start with a short history of Lutheran music. Beyond this, the issue is origin verses use. Commits, questions, suggestions? Weberc (talk) 16:17, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Here is the article as it is being constructed. Weberc (talk) 17:45, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm very interested in helping with this article if I have time. Although I'm not an ultimate expert on the subject, I've devoted a lot of time researching it as a church musician and as someone who enjoys preserving the heritage of Lutheran hymnody. I'll open up the talk page on that proposed article. Thanks! --Dulcimerist (talk) 16:32, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I proofread it and helped to smooth out the existing material. Hopefully the changes I made aren't too drastic, as I ended up making more adjustments and spending much more time with the article than I had intended. I apologize if I did too much work on it. Please let me know if I can be of more help. Thanks for starting this article! --Dulcimerist (talk) 07:20, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Cool. I'm glad you are working on it!--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 02:24, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Christian Symbolism Article

Should the Christian symbolism article have a WikiProject Lutheranism tag on it? It seems somewhat relevant to our WikiProject, although it would likely be a low priority. I don't know how to go about adding the tag, and thought I should ask here first before adding the tag anyway. Thanks! --Dulcimerist (talk) 16:48, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead. Try to include it the way it is on the Lutheranism page-- as a Christianity article that is project Lutheranism supported. You could copy and paste, but you would need to change the importance.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 02:23, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I just noticed

that Michaelangelo shows up on the Category:People celebrated in the Lutheran liturgical calendar and I was wondering why that might be, or more to the point, if it is accurate. So I decided to pass this on to you to figure out. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 18:26, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

It does appear to be true, but I would question whether it is a DEFINING characteristic of Michaelangelo, and therefore an appropriate categorization. It appears that many people who are celebrated in various churches have been categorized without any regard for categorization guidelines. --JFH (talk) 15:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Portraits of 42 protestant reformers

Hi everyone! You may want to have a look at this recently uploaded high resolution picture with portraits of 42 protestant reformers.Beat Estermann (talk) 22:55, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Communicatio idiomatum: Lutheran-Reformed debate

I am working on expanding the patristics aspect of this article but don't know enough to tackle the section on the "Lutheran-Reformed debate" which is unreferenced at the moment. Help would be appreciated. Jpacobb (talk) 21:21, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Beerwolf

Why Beerwolf, when the German is clearly Bearwolf?--DThomsen8 (talk) 01:05, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Great Apostasy

Hi. I'd like members to have a look at these edits and the accompanying discussion at Talk:Great Apostasy. It seems to me that they alter the Overview section in a POV way, giving undue weight to fringe Protestant views of the Catholic Church such as idol-worship, worship of Mary, and the hybrid "pagan Mother-Son worship". And not only that, but these fringe views are copied to the lead, totally skewing it. The citations are a collection of far-out Christian websites: http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_paganism_Catholic_sun-worship, https://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-history/how-the-sabbath-was-changed, https://www.gotquestions.org/worship-saints-Mary.html, http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/catholic_church_idolatry.html, https://bible.org/question/it-okay-worship-statues-jesus, and a self-published 1914 pamphlet, The Practice of Idolatry, none of which come anywhere near satisfying WP:RS. Any input into the discussion is welcome. I'm copying this to other Christian WikiProjects. Scolaire (talk) 15:19, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Lutheran denominations reorganization proposal

I'm not sure if this page is watched by many active Wikipedians, but I figured I'd try asking this here anyway on the hope that it is. I recently spent a fair amount of time expanding and sourcing the List of Lutheran denominations. Now that I've substantially finished my work on that list, I'd like to make pages for the many (over 100) Lutheran denominations that don't currently have Wikipedia pages. Unfortunately, many of these denominations are too small to deserve their own pages, possibly including some of the denominations that do currently have their own pages. I see two ways to proceed despite this problem. The first would be to list smaller denominations as a section on the page of the largest denomination in the country (most countries have a dominant Lutheran church and one or more much smaller Lutheran churches). So, for example, the "Evangelical Lutheran Church of Angola" would contain a short paragraph on the "Confessional Lutheran Church in Angola" within a section entitled "Other Lutheran churches in Angola" (or something along those lines).

The second solution I see would be to create a series of articles that focus on Lutheranism by country, with sections on each denomination within the article. Thus "Lutheranism in Angola" could contain a section on the "Evangelical Lutheran Church of Angola" and the "Confessional Lutheran Church in Angola." For countries with one major Lutheran church and several smaller churches, the section on the largest church would contain a brief summary of the church along with a link to its own separate article.

Either way, I would foresee this applying mostly (or only) in the case of African, Asian, and South American Lutheran churches—in other words, in areas where Lutherans have historically been thin on the ground.

If anyone has any thoughts on either of these ideas, or if you have another suggestion on how I might best proceed, please let me know. I'm open to any ideas on how to include information on all the redlinked articles within the List of Lutheran denominations. Bnng (talk) 23:29, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

I think the second option, articles named "Lutheranism in Country", would be better than the first. It would also be possible to move any country-specific detail from the Lutheranism by region article into these articles. In particular, we need a Lutheranism in the United States article for a good overview of the history of the various Lutheran bodies there. Much of the history is already present in the individual denomination articles, but someone not familiar with it would have to read a number of articles to try to understand the big picture. Indyguy (talk) 01:48, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Oh, good, I was hoping you'd chime in. I prefer that option as well, even though it will probably be quite a bit more work. If that ends up being the route we† decide on, do you have any thoughts as to how much information there should be on an individual denomination before it should have its own article? Take, for example, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Angola. Not counting the historical information that doesn't directly pertain to the IELA, do you think there's enough there for it to have its own stand-alone article, in addition to being mentioned in Lutheranism in Angola?

†Incidentally, do you know if there are any other Lutheranism-interested editors who are still active on Wikipedia? You're the only one I've seen making a large number of edits recently. Bnng (talk) 02:53, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm still here. I organized Template:Lutheranism_in_the_United_States in 2009 & 2010. Since then, I've realized that there is a better way to organize Lutheran denominations. A simplified version of this approach was used in a practical manner by Jaroslav Pelikan, but I have yet to put it into practice.

All of the textbooks on the history of European Protestant theology divide the Lutheran (and some Reformed or Union) theologians of the 1800s into three categories--Kantian, Hegelian, and Christian Existentialist. Mainly they fit into the first two categories. All three groups had their own spectrums, with Objectivist vs. Subjectivist Kantians, the Hegelian Left and Right, and Secular vs. Christian Existentialists.

Because Hegel and Kant wrote extensively about political structures it is easy to identify these traits when looking at polity. Basically you can sort all of the Lutheran denominations by their polity style. Theology, worship, internal culture, and translation preferences generally follow the same basic pattern that polity does, but it is not perfect.

The impact of polity here is especially due to the history of the free church movement in Germany in the 1800s. It is basically impossible to justify splitting off a free church under a Hegelian framework, because Hegelian philosophy is incompatible with the doctrine of the Lesser magistrates. This locked in certain churches into a Kantian polity.

Examples of what I am referring to: European state churches and Evangelical Lutheran Church in America are Hegelian, more or less Hegelian Left. Wisconsin Synod and most of the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference churches are Hegelian Right.

The Missouri Synod and the small split off bodies from it such as the Lutheran Churches of the Reformation are objectivist Kantian. The Missouri Synod has a decent sized Hegelian faction inside it, which is reflected in the polity of the English district. Churches in fellowship or other associations with it across the world are either Kantian, Hegelian, or both.

Apostolic Lutherans are also objectivist Kantian. Their polity is similar to the original Stephanite colony which founded the Missouri Synod. The Evangelical Lutheran Synod is also mostly objectivist Kantian, due to their origin in the Johnsonian Awakening in Norway.

The Church of the Lutheran Confession and the churches associated with it have both objectivist Kantian and Hegelian Right influences.

The Lutheran Brethren are subjectivist Kantian, but there is no strict line separating subjectivist Kantianism from existentialism.

The Protes'tant Conference and the Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ have a Christian Existentialist polity.

Several forces have served over the last 100 or so years to blur and sharpen these differences. The pan-Lutheran movement and Confessional Lutheran movements attempted to get Kantians and Hegelians together by using the same basic strategy that Thomas Aquinas used to get Dominicans and Franciscans to align as the schola antiqua. Aquinas' Summa Theologica asked different questions while allowing both factions to represent themselves under his own system.

Against these two movements have been the ever present issues and impacts from culture, such as communism, Biblical scholarships homosexuality, and the ordination of women. These controversies tend to be resolved along pre-existing philosophical lines. Perceived threats of culture result in people digging in their heels.

What advantage does arranging denominations by polity serve for Wikipedia? It is a neutral, objective point of view. It resists the tendency to reinforce the LWF/ILC/CELC distinctions, which tend to be non-neutral in character due to the church politics involved. For example, one liability here is the longstanding practice of the LWF to count as "Lutheran" everyone in every member church body, even those which are union bodies where few members would self-identify as Lutheran. Besides using polity, the other main objective way to arrange the Lutheran denominations of the world is by their country. But with so many countries it makes less sense for the English reader, who probably is not even familiar with all of the countries to begin with. Of course, they aren't familiar with Kantians/Hegelians/Existentialists either, but it isn't that many categories, and they could be briefly explained Epiphyllumlover (talk) 06:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Request to add sentence and category to David Trone article

Resolved

Hello! On behalf of David Trone, I've proposed adding mention of his religion (Lutheranism), as well as mention of his family members' faith and which synagogue they attend, within the "Personal life" section of his Wikipedia article. I've proposed specific text here for one or more volunteer editors to review and implement appropriately. Adding Category:American Lutherans also seems appropriate.

I don't edit articles directly because of my conflict of interest, but I've provided sourcing and markup for consideration. Is a WikiProject Lutheranism member willing to review this request and update the article accordingly? Thanks in advance for any help. Inkian Jason (talk) 18:54, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Thanks! Inkian Jason (talk) 15:48, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

OALC controversy section

Why is there no mention of child molestation in the southwest Washington (or others) OALC sect?75.100.226.132 (talk) 08:37, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

articles stuck in draft

Lutheranism articles in "Draft." Currently:

• User:Weberc/Lutheran music (this one looks promising)
• Draft:Music in Protestant Churches during and after the Protestant Reformation (now an article)
• Draft:Our Saviour Lutheran High School (now an article)
• Draft:First Lutheran, Houston (now an article)
• Draft:Scot Kerns (now an article)
• Draft:Heinrich Bedford-Strohm (now an article)
• Draft:Mary Holliday
• Draft:Midwest Luheran Synod
• Draft:Trinity Education Foundation
• Draft:Kufre-Abasi Etim
• Draft:VIVA Inclusive Migrant Network
• Draft:Kjell Markset
• Draft:Ansgar Kirke (Flensburg) (now an article)
• Draft:Krish O'Mara Vignarajah (now an article)
• Draft:Martin Edward Lee
• Draft:Christopher Holman
• Draft:Mozelle Martin
• Draft:Macomb Lutheran North
• Draft:The Albrechts of Rothenburg ob der Tauber (1493-1806) (now an article)
• Draft:Christa Jeitner (textile artist)
• Draft:Lutheran Church of the Redeemer (Atlanta)
• Draft:Lutheran Indian Ministries (blocked from ever being created)
• Draft:Institute of Lutheran Theology (renominated) created
• Draft:Ceylon Evangelical Lutheran Church merged
• Draft:Trinity Lutheran Church Miles City MT (renominated) merged
• Draft:Sani Ibrahim Azar (now an article)
• Draft:Table Talk Radio Podcast deleted 23 July 2019
• Draft:Serge Maschewski deleted 15 November 2019
• Draft:Rev. Dorothy Forrest Trumbo deleted 14 December 2019
• Draft:Biserica Lutherană Confesională din România deleted 7 February 2019
• Draft:George Scott (politician) deleted 7 May 2019
• Draft:Ryan Goessl deleted 6 November 2019
• Draft:Jakobuskirche (Oberkotzau) deleted 23 June 2019
• Draft:Mark McLaughlin (CVUSD superintendent) deleted 5 June 2019
• Draft:Xan Krohn deleted 17 February 2019
• *Draft:Pre-Lutheran bibles in vernacular languages merged

Epiphyllumlover (talk) 00:50, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

Members of this Project may be interested in this discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:05, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Articles in Draft

• User:Weberc/Lutheran music
• Draft:Faith Lutheran College, Plainland
• Draft:Jordan B. Cooper
• Draft:Bishop Laurie Skow-Anderson
• Draft:Golden Grove Lutheran Primary School
• Draft:Music in Lutheran services
• Draft:Ulla Eho-Saario
• Draft:Dijacson Loyal
• Draft:Leonhard Kaiser
• Draft:Merton P. Strommen
• Draft:Hermann Bahlburg
• Draft:Reformation numismatics
• Draft:M. Butschkau
• Draft:Andreas Grailich
• Draft:Roald Nikolai Flemestad
• Draft:East camp
• Draft:Ezexzo
• Draft:Foma Alexandrovich Cobley
• Draft:James Todd Alger
• Draft:Jon Ignatius Lumanog
• Draft:John A. Knudsen
• Draft:Elias Melin
• Draft:Nathan Johnson (architect)
• Draft:Matthias Hanke
• Draft:Victor Karl Hermann Kohlschmidt
• Draft:Nakeke
• Draft:Davor Zovko
• Draft:Emily M. Dickens
• Draft:Paul Lee (environmentalist)
• Draft:Friedrich Grote
• Draft:Muriel Tillinghast
• Draft:Colonial Rule in India - A Chronology--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:32, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment at Shroud of Turin

There is a new RfC open at Talk:Shroud of Turin#Request for comment on lead which is relevant to this project. Instaurare (talk) 06:40, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod title change

An editor has opened a move discussion for the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod on its talk page to use either an emdash or an endash with spaces instead of an endash. Your comments are welcome. Indyguy (talk) 20:29, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Indyguy What does the Synod use? They get to call themselves whatever they want. That should supervene our predilections and end debate. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:53, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

As I commented in the discussion on the talk page., the synod uses an emdash with no spaces. However, from what I can tell, practically no one outside of the synod does. Usually only an unspaced hyphen or sometimes an endash is used in newspaper articles, etc., so the issue of common name comes into play. Indyguy (talk) 22:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Indyguy Typographical choices limit what others can (easily, or will) use. I stand by what I wrote earlier. But it is a miniscule and obscure issue — of import to religious mavens and afficianados only — not unlike Endianism. Not worth arguing over.7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:40, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

As I said, they get to call themselves what they want and in the style they want. They are free to call themselves a "peanut butter and jelly sandwich" or a "Pastaferian — Oops, not that – it's already taken. Best regards. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:02, 30 August 2023 (UTC)