Wikipedia talk:Short description

"National flag" as short description

I preferred the use of "national flag" as short description for conventional flag articles of UN member states. For organizational flags, use "organization flag" for United Nations, NATO, etc., and for regional and state flag articles, for example, California uses "U.S. state flag" as short description (if shortened). 49.150.13.247 (talk) 01:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, what you shouldn't do is unilaterally change what the guideline says and then make work on 100 pages others have to undo. Remsense诉 03:07, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

@GhostInTheMachine: is there a consensus for a short description that "national flag", "<country> state flag", "<country> municipal flag", etc., that is using short descriptions for flag of the United States and flag of California? 49.150.13.247 (talk) 03:12, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

If "History of California" has an SD of none, why wouldn't this be? Remsense诉 03:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Exactly it is, all list articles are intentionally blank, but some history articles also intentionally blank. 49.150.13.247 (talk) 03:24, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Right, I'm saying I don't understand why almost all "in/of" articles in this vein shouldn't have an SD of none. Remsense诉 03:25, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

All I say is that replacing a WP:SDNONE with "National flag" under a "Flag of [nation]" article isn't automatically needed. Although understand the need for consistency among flags, but unsure of the idea of adding/maintaining "National flag" SD's everywhere. DankJae 08:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

It is necessary to have short descriptions for flag articles. If you want to seek a consensus for short descriptions, please request for a comment. 49.150.13.247 (talk) 09:38, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

No it is not necessary for filled SDs on flag articles, they are treated like any other article. Editors may decide whether a filled SD is needed or if SDNONE is fine for the purpose. DankJae 11:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Just a general note: for flag articles such as Bloody flag, it may be necessary. But for flag articles containing a prepositional phrase (i.e. followed by "of"), such as Flag of Afghanistan and Flag of North Korea (nominated to "good article" status), then no, it is not necessary. However, all articles need the {{short description}} template as a rule of thumb. 192.254.92.90 (talk) 18:18, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Not sure why so many are taking the preference of a block evader as an authoritative interpretation of policy. Changing the short descriptions of every "Flag of" article to "none" presumes that the reader is familiar with every country, subnational division, region, city, etc. It's not an improvement. Yue🌙 05:55, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

This is the case, but I'm not sure what elegantly to do about it: what I wouldn't argue is that it should necessarily cascade—there are cases I think where X would need a shortdesc for disambiguation (let's assume for a second that articles wouldn't have one by default, so e.g. France wouldn't but maybe Luxembourg would), but Y of X wouldn't. If you're searching, I actually don't think it's very likely that you get to a situation where you see Flag of Luxembourg and need to be disambiguated, since you already probably know Luxembourg is some state or territory. Does that make sense? Remsense ‥ 论 06:02, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

• We intend that all articles will have a SD. However, "none" is a valid SD in many cases – not just for lists — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 10:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

  @GhostInTheMachine: Is this the article "flag of the United States", which is a UN member state, has short description under {{Short description|National flag}}? 49.150.13.247 (talk) 11:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

  It was a general observation that "none" is a perfectly valid SD for many articles. It would also be suitable for many of the articles about flags as the article title already provides enough detail — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 11:06, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

  I have a request for you. I find the definition of WP:SDNONE to be exceptionally vague. Can you and other admins on the short description wikiproject make it so the definition has more examples of articles that should (and shouldn't) be none? It would be useful to stop having these (necessary) talk pages about where this rule is used. -1ctinus📝🗨 12:51, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

  Did "Flag of the Soviet Union" and "Flag of Yugoslavia" are dates encouraged in short description as well? 49.150.13.247 (talk) 22:22, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

  WP:SDAVOID says that editors should avoid anything that could be understood as controversial, judgemental, or promotional. If you’re asking for specific flag-related examples, that wouldn’t be appropriate as it would amount to taking sides in a content dispute. Per WP:SDCONTENT: The short description is part of the article content, and is subject to the normal rules on content. Some people want consistency across flag articles, some think specific flags need special treatment, and some just like arguing about flags. There have always been such disagreements, and they are for content editors to resolve in the normal way. It's not an issue for this page. MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  Okay then, should we mass editing by changing to "none" as short description for any flag articles? 49.150.13.247 (talk) 10:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  No, not unless you have consensus to do so from editors who are active in those pages. MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:00, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  No. Keep as "none". 192.254.92.90 (talk) 11:16, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

• Note that I've rangeblocked the OP for block evasion.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:30, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Lifespan tags

For WP:WPSHORTDESC, I feel there should be an initiative to add lifespan tags (e.g. "(1940–2010)") to biographical short descriptions. Roasted (talk) 22:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Go ahead. The instructions support it. I think the consensus here is that populating missing short descriptions is the most important task. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:26, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

If we include lifespan dates for biographies of deceased subjects, but not birth year for BLPs (e.g., (born xxxx) – which seems less useful in the context of a SD), it could also serve as a handy shorthand to differentiate between the two at a glance. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 11:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Dates are recommended for both, unless there is other essential information to be included and the dates would make the SD too long. WP:SDDATES also notes that "birthdates for living people should not be included unless sourced within the article." MichaelMaggs (talk) 12:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. Might we consider changing the guidance on this if the logic for doing so is considered sound? -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 14:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

What did you have in mind? BLPs and other biographies are already distinquishable (at least when usable dates are available). One has (born xxxx), the other (xxxx–yyyy). MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how to do a query to determine how often each is used, but my hunch is that "born" is used much less frequently. My suggestion would be to not use it in SDs full-stop. If this were the norm, then seeing parenthetical dates in an SD would be a super-quick indicator that the subject is deceased. It would also give us eleven extra characters to use for living subjects (if needed).-- Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

To be honest I don't think that would be an improvement, and it loses useful information for BLPs: it's quite handy to be able to tell at a glance the rough age of the person. Are they 20 or 90? Those eleven characters are always available, anyway, if there is something more important than a date that needs to be included. MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. It's something I tend to do (and find useful). I'm not wed to the idea beyond my own quirks. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Help needed for short description of climate change

Would anyone from this WikiProject like to weigh into the brainstorming of the short description for the article on climate change? I think it's a very important Wikipedia article and I'd like to get the short description just right. We've been tossing around some options here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Climate_change#Changing_the_current_short_description? Please join the discussion and help if you can. EMsmile (talk) 10:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

A bug at ice shelf?

This is really odd: the article for ice shelf doesn't let me change its short description. Has anyone ever had this before? I can change it to "none" but when I try to change it to "Large platform of glacial ice" it goes back to "Antarctic ice shelf in the Amundsen Sea" which is wrong. Help? EMsmile (talk) 14:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Odd indeed. Even more so in that the corrected text appears as {{Short description|Large platform of glacial ice}} in the text editor. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 14:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It is caused by {{excerpt|Thwaites Ice Shelf|templates=.*|file=no}}. The short description is being included by the excerpt. Because the SD in that excerpt is lower in the article, it is chosen by the MediaWiki software as the article's SD. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:01, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick help! What do I have to do to fix it? And what does the "templates=.*" mean in the excerpt template syntax? EMsmile (talk) 15:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I seem to have found the solution: I removed the "templates=.*" at {{excerpt|Thwaites Ice Shelf|templates=.*|file=no}} and now it works. Pinging User:InformationToKnowledge because I think they might have added that syntax piece, for their information. EMsmile (talk) 20:01, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Removing that parameter also removes information from the Disruption of Thwaites Ice Shelf section (e.g., coordinates which are included in the source using the {{coord}} template), alas. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 05:57, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Strict interpretation of WP:SD40

This edit by Ltbdl seems to advocate a stricter reading of WP:SD40 than I have generally seen applied. There are many articles with descriptions in the 40-60 range where rote shortening is not an improvement and I believe this is one of those cases. ~Kvng (talk) 23:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

One thing I think about is I haven't really internalized how SDs longer than 40 characters get truncated. Does it just cut off the end of the string? Remsense诉 00:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Both of the SDs were in direct contradiction of WP:SDNOTDEF. It's helpful to read the whole page, not just one bullet point. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Forgive me, but I can't see how they directly contradict NOTDEF? Are they jargon-y, or? What would you have, I'm curious. Remsense诉 01:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

"When a computing process stops progressing or responding to input" and "When a computing process stops progressing" are both definitions of the computing term "hang". See, for example, Cambridge Dictionary: "(of a computer program or system) to stop working or appearing on a screen". – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:47, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm still puzzled, as There is no objection to an otherwise-suitable short description that also happens to work as a definition. seems plain to me. It's not at all a rhetorical question, I really am curious what your ideal SD here is. Remsense诉 05:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The wording you quote means that even though a short description happens to work as a definition, it still complies with this page in all respects. Your example of 65 characters is not "otherwise-suitable" if it's that long. I'd suggest When a process becomes non-responsive (37 characters), as not only complying with this page, but also being more informative than "Term in computing". That may or may not work as a definition (it's a rather poor one if it is), but that doesn't matter as it is "otherwise-suitable" and achieves its its purpose. MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@MichaelMaggs congratulations, you're the winner! This is the kind of work that often needs to be done to shorten these longer descriptions. Just removing information until you achieve 40 characters may not be a net improvement; They often need to be rewritten. If you're not up for that, leave them longer. ~Kvng (talk) 13:16, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense it is hard to predict exactly where the description will be truncated because how it is used is apparently controlled more by graphic designers than librarians. The consensus is we can assume that at 40 characters or less it is unlikely to be truncated. Between 40 and 60 it may be truncated but that will likely be tolerable. At over 100 truncation could be ugly. ~Kvng (talk) 13:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The truncation usually does not interfere with the usefulness of the SD. There is no 40-character "limit", and SDs should not be made worse in an attempt to enforce this nonexistent "limit". It is useful to read the discussion that led to the current wording of the guidance, and to look at the screen shots linked from that discussion. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

And, with respect, your proposal is an example of worsening an SD presumably to shorten it. ~Kvng (talk) 15:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

My goal with that change was to comply with the overall guidance, not to shorten the SD. As I said above and in previous discussions, I don't think the 40-character guidance is a big deal. A good, truncated 60-character description is better than a bad 39-character description. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:39, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The point I was getting at above is it really would depend on how it's truncated, imo. Remsense 诉 22:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jonesey95, your effort to comply with the overall guidance did not improve the SD in this case IMO:

Term in computing < When a computing process stops progressing < When a process becomes non-responsive.

If edits don't improve things, we shouldn't be making them. Either the guidance needs work or your interpretation of it needs work or my understanding of a good SD needs calibration. ~Kvng (talk) 17:05, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Bug with List of Coastal Carolina Chanticleers head baseball coaches

I typically use search to get lists of articles that qualify for WP:SDNONE, however, -hastemplate:"short description" prefix:"List of" keeps showing List of Coastal Carolina Chanticleers head baseball coaches, despite having a short descriptions. What's going on here? I have not seen this on any other page. -1ctinus📝🗨 14:04, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. I fixed that one yesterday, but the search system is seeing an older version of the article. I nudged it a few times, so maybe it will catch up... — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 17:18, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Screenshot of an error with a Wikipedia search

I had another go at this today. I ended up by removing the SD template, to see if the search could be "nudged". The result is that the search now finds the same page TWICE. At least, it finds the real one, plus an old version of the page that seems to be the one stuck in the search index. Both search results give the same article name and the same link. Looking at the history, the page was moved to draft on 2024-06-09 (at 16:49) and then re-created (forked? duplicated?) in article namespace on 2024-06-11. The pre-draft version of (2024-06-09 16:09) is the one living as a zombie in the search index. Does anybody know how to kill search zombies? — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 13:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I have posted about this on the village pump to see if anybody there can help — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 14:11, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

We are under 900,000 pages without a short description

under 900k short descs

Greetings from Wikiproject Short Descriptions! If you are reading this, this means that we have reached the sub-900,000 mark! To facilitate this continued progress, I am going to ask a bunch of questions for administrators and other members of the WikiProject for conesus for formatting for short descriptions, and some requests for fellow editors to continue adding short descriptions to parts. -1ctinus📝🗨 12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

1. How should [x in y] articles be formatted in the United States? a. (x in State) b. (x in State, US) c. (x in State, United States) d. (x in State, U.S.) -1ctinus📝🗨 12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I've been previously doing something along the lines of "Statue in California, USA" but I think "Statue in California, US" makes sense as well. The others - United States, U.S. - are needlessly long (especially when 40 characters is a recommended limit). LR.127 (talk) 16:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

[thing] in [state], US — MOS:USA says Do not use U.S.A. or USA ... — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 19:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Generally agree, but if space is short and [state] is unambiguous, "US" could be omitted. For example "[Thing] in [Texas]" but "[Thing] in [Georgia], US" (ie not Georgia (country)) MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:01, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a consensus here if either A or B is the preferred option. Either way, I'd really like to see this added to the page when consensus is reached. I'm in favor of B -1ctinus📝🗨 19:24, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

It depends entirely on context, to ensure comprehensibility and usefulness to the reader. I don't accept that we need to choose exactly one of the four options you've proposed. MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:27, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Assuming that the country and/or state is not mentioned or implied in the article name and there is no potential for confusion with using "US", that should likely be the standard per MOS:USA, especially in cases where it would go over 40 characters. If there is room to fit "United States" within 40 characters, that can also be done if there are no other helpful words that could be used. In terms of automation, I guess B would be best, but it should be not be a requirement. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 22:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Consensus – dont use non fiction in short description to describe books

2. Should non-fiction books include "non-fiction" in the short description? Typically, genres are not included in short descriptions. -1ctinus📝🗨 12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC) No. Say what it is, not what it is not. Books should start with the year of publication — 2189 book by Jacob von Hogflume, 2050 novel by Charles Morningstar, 2058 anthology by Linda Martin — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 19:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC) No, agree with @GhostInTheMachine MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:02, 19 August 2024 (UTC) Probably not. If there is more space in the SD after including the date, type of work, and author name for a non-fiction book, then a specific field is preferable (e.g. "1997 history book by Charles Smith" vs. "1997 non-fiction book by Charles Smith"). Otherwise, fine to just leave as "book". -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 22:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

3. Do "x of y" and "x in y" articles qualify for WP:SDNONE for subnational entities and municipalities, even if the average reader may not know of the region or municipality? (e.g. History of Jiangxi) If they do not qualify for WP:SDNONE, what is their proper format? -1ctinus📝🗨 12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Places should generally end with ... [top sub-division], [country] – states in America, counties in England, oblasts in Russia etc. Events that happened in places can get lengthy, so sometimes it is necessary to reduce to country only. The country should always be included — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 19:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I’m not exactly following with what you are saying. What would be the proper SD format in your opinion for History of Jiangxi or Geology of Pembrokeshire, for example? -1ctinus📝🗨 21:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Both of those should be WP:SDNONE. The description for Jiangxi can explain that it's a province in China, but it's not the job of the description for History of Jiangxi to indicate this. I'm not opposed to the below suggestions along the lines of "History of the Chinese province" for subnational entities. Uhai (talk) 03:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:SDNONE may work, but is not very user-friendly if the term is likely to be unfamiliar to the reader. Prefer "Aspect of Chinese history", "Aspect of Welsh history" MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:05, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I think "Aspect of Chinese history" is not as good as say "History of the Chinese province"/"Chinese provincial history". If they do not know where Jiangxi is, there are multiple other things they might think it might be that might also be aspects of Chinese history. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 23:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think SDNONE should be used for subnational/municipal entities. We can (somewhat) reasonably expect people to know countries, but not anything below that. The SDs for these articles should at least indicate what country is being discussed and ideally the level being covered if possible to fit within the SD (e.g. province, state, municipal). -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 22:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I’ve generally agreed with that, however, everything that is suggested is super ugly sounding and repeats the title slightly. The examples given "History of the Chinese province"/"Chinese provincial history" sound unpleasant and repeat the word history. This is my biggest problem with WP:SDNONE. is it "sufficiently detailed"? -1ctinus📝🗨 00:42, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Repeating one word isn't the worst, especially when it is "history" as opposed to something more jargony. We should assume that reader will know what that means instead of needlessly applying elegant variation. In respect to your last sentence, I would be shocked if most readers would be able to say that Jiangxi is a Chinese province as opposed to a number of other Chinese things that might plausibly have "History of X" articles. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 01:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

4. Do all filmography, discography, and bibliography articles qualify for WP:SDNONE? -1ctinus📝🗨 12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes and I have been adding none SDs to such articles for a while now. Many of these articles that I have not touched also have none SDs, so there may be an implicit consensus here assuming it's not a very small group of editors adding them. The rationale here is similar to above: Tom Cruise's SD should indicate he's an American actor born in 1962 but not Tom Cruise filmography's SD. Regardless; filmographies, discographies, and bibliographies are essentially list articles which should be WP:SDNONE anyway. Uhai (talk) 04:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

There's no overarching rule. WP:SDNONE is less informative than "American actor's filmography", which is what I'd use MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

My issue is that that feels a little clunky because of the reuse of "filmography". I think I've seen some filmographies with SDs along the lines of "List of film performances by the American actor" which I like better but these are perhaps a little lengthy. I'm not opposed to either option instead of SDNONE. Uhai (talk) 23:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Maybe the shorter "Performances by the American actor" would be better? We wouldn't need to clarify film since "filmography" is in the title. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 03:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I like that MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I think SDNONE can apply, since the non-name "-ography" part of the title tells the reader what the article is going to be about. Would not be opposed to what Michael Maggs mentioned though as long as it tracks with the main biographical article. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 23:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

5. Which election articles qualify for WP:SDNONE? Does 1804 Connecticut gubernatorial election? Does 1960 New Zealand general election? -1ctinus📝🗨 12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I've been previously using WP:SDNONE for all election articles. I think it should stay that way. LR.127 (talk) 16:42, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Most election articles have a fully describing title and so none is fine. If there is a temptation to add a SD, then perhaps the article title should be changed instead? — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 19:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

My concern with election articles is when the name of the election doesn't indicate the office(s) being elected. What does a "general election" in New Zealand mean? Does it only include parliamentary elections, or are there local offices as well? Are there any nationwide referenda or other offices chosen? For 2022 Brazilian general election, an SD of "2022 elections for Brazilian congress and executives" answers the question of where, when, and what the scope of the election is in a way that the article title doesn't. But it's also not a good article title, since the name of the election is the "general election". So I think SDnone needs to be a bit more judicious when it comes to election articles. VanIsaac, GHTV ^cont_WpWS 21:33, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The SD doesn't need to define what "general election" means for a given country; the article lede can clarify which offices are being elected. I don't see anything wrong with general election articles being WP:SDNONE. For 2022 Brazilian general election, "2022 elections for Brazilian congress and executives" is borderline too lengthy and unnecessarily restates the year and the word "election". The inability to avoid restating words from the article title is an indicator that the SD should be none. Uhai (talk) 04:16, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

These can be hard, as titles often include words that are unfamiliar outside the relevant country or region, eg "general", "gubernatorial", "union", "midterm", "primary" and so on. If there's no way to indicate even in general terms what or who is being elected, without writing a definition, it's best to be very general, making sure the country is included if not already in the title eg "State election in India". MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I think SDNONE would apply to elections at the national level. At the subnational level, I think it is helpful to state what country the election is in and what level it is (e.g. "French regional election", "Japanese municipal election", Malaysian federal by-election"). Unlike countries, we cannot reasonably expect readers to be familiar with the overwhelming majority of subnational divisions or municipalities, and it is helpful to indicate what the elections are to readers. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 23:10, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Transparency, this is the stance I agree with when it comes down to elections. -1ctinus📝🗨 00:44, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

template capitalization doesnt matter, duh

6. Should the template be lowercase (short description) or uppercase (Short description)? Is it editor preference?-1ctinus📝🗨 12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC) The SD helper script uses uppercase (Short description), but I don't think it matters. LR.127 (talk) 16:42, 18 August 2024 (UTC) This does not matter, both "work". I have seen edits that just change the template name case and these are just evil — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 19:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC) Doesn't matter. MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:28, 19 August 2024 (UTC) I don't think this matters? If there is a meaningful, technical difference, than use whatever is best obviously. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 23:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC) Doesn't matter for either of them. Vulcan❯❯❯Sphere! 00:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

7. Should short descriptions include unsourced birth and death dates? Should tools allowing for quick extraction of birth and death dates for short descriptions be deprecated? -1ctinus📝🗨 12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

If birth and death dates are unsourced, it should be removed from the article altogether (and not included in short descriptions, either). I'm not sure about automated tools. LR.127 (talk) 16:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The SD should be "inspired" from the lead, and possibly the infobox and categories. The SD should not include information missing from the article. If the dates are unsourced, then they should be removed from the article or, at the very least, be flagged as {{CN}}. Sometimes, of course, there is a little room for patience with a very new article, but if the SD adds unsourced data, then you must re-visit the article a short time later and confirm that the data is now sourced. — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 20:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Everything in the SD should be supported by the article text and everything in the article text should be supported by reliable sources. Tools that extract data from the article for the SD should be fine if human-assisted rather than operating fully autonomously. Uhai (talk) 04:24, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:SDCONTENT says The short description is part of the article content, and is subject to the normal rules on content. In practice, dates without in-line citations are sometimes copied from the article body to the SD, which generally isn't too serious a problem, as WP:V requires in-line citations only for material challenged or likely to be challenged. The situation for living people is different, though as WP:BLPSOURCES demands that unsourced contentious information (which is very likely to include a birthdate) "must be removed immediately". That's reflected at WP:SDDATES which states Care should be taken when the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy applies: birthdates for living people should not be included unless sourced within the article. The answer to your second question is likely to be no if the tool is human-assisted (each entry checked one by one by an experienced editor). MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:49, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Ideally the dates should be supported by in-line citations, but unless it is a BLP (in which case the date should be sourced or removed from the body per other existing BLP rules), there isn't too much harm in using the dates in the article. Probably can be left to editor judgment, unless there is a way to filter for BLP entries. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 23:13, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

8. What is the format for sports drafts such as 2004 WNBA draft? As you can see, my attempt was rather clunky. Does it qualify for WP:SDNONE?-1ctinus📝🗨 12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

It is surprising (?) how many sports article fail to mention the actual sport. Nobody knows what WNBA stands for, so initially the article lead needs to talk about what sport is involved. Once the lead is fixed, the SD often follows naturally — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 20:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I've struggled with what to do for sports draft articles. I think the annual event articles could be WP:SDNONE while articles like WNBA draft and NFL draft could indicate the sport and the frequency of the event. I don't think any of these aforementioned articles' SDs should describe what a sports draft is, since Draft (sports) exists to do this. Perhaps something like:

• 2004 WNBA draft: WP:SDNONE
• WNBA draft: "Annual women's basketball draft"
• NFL draft: "Annual American football draft"

I explained above that one should avoid restating words from the article title but I should clarify that my general rule is that one word being restated is okay. Uhai (talk) 04:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

It's really important to indicate the sport: "WNBA", for example, means nothing to many (most?) readers outside the US. WP:SDNONE is not appropriate for 2004 WNBA draft. It could be "US Women's basketball player selection" (38 characters). MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd not be against draft articles being handled this way, although I think the addition of the word "league" may be beneficial for clarity. The way that is written makes me think of a player selection for the US national team or something rather than for a league. Uhai (talk) 23:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I also want to give attention to some types of pages that I would appreciate people adding short descriptions to.

• Gaelic sports
• Locomotives
• Satellites
• Minor planets/asteroids
• Finishing infobox book (I did most of them in June)
• It took 87 days to get from under a million to 900,000. By that rate, all articles will have a short description by October 2026. However, if we have consensus on formats, I believe that we can achieve that target sooner. Here's some admins I want input from: GhostInTheMachine Uhai Qwerfjkl-1ctinus📝🗨 12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

You could probably create a new section here and post on the respective WikiProject pages to try and get some input, since some of these are more technical. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 04:26, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

WMF project on Machine Assisted Article Descriptions

WMF developers have been working for some time on a tool for mobile users, providing editors working across various different language Wikipedias with automated suggestions for writing an 'article description' (their term for what is known here as a short description). They have recently reported on the results of their trials, and are seeking further feedback. As the main project is hosted on MediaWiki, at mw:Wikimedia Apps/Team/Android/Machine Assisted Article Descriptions and discussion is at mw:Talk:Wikimedia Apps/Team/Android/Machine Assisted Article Descriptions, many experienced English Wikipedia SD contributors may not be aware of it. User:Jonesey95 and I have commented on the talk page, and additional views would be welcome there. MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:18, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Was this a trial on 2 May 2023? If so, I saw 61 SD edits tagged as #machine-suggestion. My notes say that I subsequently changed 47 of them. — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 20:30, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

"WP:SD" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect WP:SD has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 18 § WP:SD until a consensus is reached. unsigned post by HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 22:25, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Countries considered harmful

Steve Mann (inventor) is a researcher known for his work on wearable computing, but the examples here seem to suggest he should be described as "Canadian engineer (born 1962)", which is absurd and, more to the point, actively harmful even for disambiguation purposes: I'm very familiar with his work but had no idea he was Canadian.

While there are professions like politician or athlete where nationality is important, this is rarely the case for scientists or (say) musicians, plus cases like Nikola Tesla or Freddie Mercury open up a massive can of worms on what exactly that nationality is anyway. Can we add some additional examples of good short descriptions for people without putting nationality up front? Jpatokal (talk) 11:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Roastedbeanz1: since I reverted your good faith edit that inspired this. Jpatokal (talk) 11:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Hmmmm. Come to think of it, there are very large potential sections of biographies (etc.) where there's clearly a more recognizable single qualifier to use. Remsense ‥ 诉 11:31, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Short descriptions follow the article. The facts in the short description are derived mainly from the facts as given in the lead. Steve Mann's article starts: William Stephen George Mann (born 8 June 1962) is a Canadian engineer,... and the infobox starts Born William Stephen George Mann 8 June 1962 (age 62) Hamilton, Ontario – Nationality Canadian so he was indeed born in Canada and is Canadian. His nationality is not in any way doubted or confused, so happily belongs in the short description — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 11:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Sure, but isn't the point of a SD slightly different—i.e. for disambiguation over definition? Remsense ‥ 诉 11:58, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

"Canadian wearable tech engineer (born 1962)" is 43 characters, if wearable tech is what he's best known for. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 19:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

That works for that article. There's never any requirement to include the nationality, though, if there's something more important to be covered. And sometimes the nationality is contentious and is best omitted anyway - WP:SDAVOID. MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed on all points. Nationality + occupation is a good default, but not a strict rule if there is something more notable about the person that is relatively well known. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 04:29, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

To SD none or not to SD none

There is a discussion going on at Talk:List of Alberta provincial highways about whether "none" is the best choice for the SD there. I bring it up here cuz it seems the whole concept of using "none" is being challenged. I invited User:Evelyn Harthbrooke to bring her concerns here but as of yet, she hasn't. Masterhatch (talk) 00:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Piggybacking off of this, the algorithm is basically as follows:

1. Title is a proper name?  Not WP:SDNONEN
2. Is a X of... article?
   • Outline of... N
   • List of...  Go to obscurity test
   • All other kinds, e.g. Glossary of..., Bibliography of..., Index of...  
3. Function words used to link terms of the title phrase? e.g. History of communication, Islam and cats  
4. Article cannot plausibly be confused in scope with any other? Y
5. Article can only be described by unhelpfully rephrasing its title? Y

---

 Obscurity test is purely pragmatic, reckoning whether the average English Wikipedia reader is likely to intuit enough based on bare recognition of each term in the name: e.g.

• Communications in Alberta Y
• Communications in Kwango N, which sadly betrays our ignorance of this noble province within the DRC.
• List of Alberta provincial highways Y
• List of Alberta CCF/NDP members N

Remsense ‥ 论 01:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

What harm does it do if an article has a short description even if it passes the obscurity test? The short description serves as a page subtitle, that’s part of the reason they were likely implemented in the first place, and it helps accessibility, and it helps people who might need additional context. I for one appreciate additional context, and for current / former highway list articles, i’d argue it’s helpful to clarify, as List of Alberta provincial highways previously included even decommissioned highways. It doesn’t do any harm to have a proper short description. Having a short description set to “none” doesn’t help anyone and at that point the Short description template may as well be excluded altogether as there’s no reason to have a template be transcluded in an article if it doesn’t do anything. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 01:28, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

In my view, it's harmful in the same way (if not to the same degree) that a clunky lead sentence is. Redundant or vestigial information is distracting when its presentation is clearly meant to be particularly parsimonious (e.g. only 40 guaranteed characters). If you'll forgive me, they're such a problem to me because I don't like them for their perceived inelegance. It's something I can't blame others for not being bothered about, especially since I specifically turned on the ability to see them on desktop while most other editors haven't. Remsense ‥ 论 01:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Then that’s, respectfully, a personal problem surrounding your personal beliefs and opinions. Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it shouldn’t exist. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 02:52, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

That would be true if the opinions were only my own. I was just explaining how I personally understand and motivate this particular convention to the extent I do, but it's still a shared convention. Remsense ‥ 论 02:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Well it’s the wrong convention to have. Having a short description set to none doesn’t help anyone. It’s literally in the guideline that all articles should have a short description, yet, having it set to “none” doesn’t give it a short description and contradicts its own policy. It also does nothing to help a reader understand, especially if a potential reader needs additional context, e.g. if they struggle with reading comprehension even just a little bit. My stance on the matter is that short descriptions being set to none is unhelpful. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 03:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, this is sort of why I was trying to frame it the way I did: (forgive me if I mischaracterize) you see SDNONE as a wasted opportunity to inform readers, I see its antithesis as a potential stumbling block in informing readers. There's no empirical data in front of us telling us which one of us is closer to the mark in aggregate, so all we can do is try to understand where the other is coming from. Remsense ‥ 论 03:10, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

How can a short description be a "potential stumbling block"? I'm genuinely confused by this, because I've always found short descriptions to be useful, not a stumbling block when it comes to informing readers. It's a useful tool, and in my view, it's there to be used. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 08:01, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, this is potentially a point where we conceptually disagree. I'm being asked to pick the smallest nits in the world: in my mind, space just is never free and information should always be presented as intentionally as possible: text inherently brings attention to itself and contributes visual noise, and unexplained redundancy or awkward semantic overlaps between title and short description can absolutely cause confusion or just make the entire text feel less cohesive—this is the second thing one sees with any given article, and that matters a lot. Remsense ‥ 论 08:14, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Here's the problem with an obscurity test: it would be inherently biased towards wherever the person lives. Do English Wikipedia readers in Uganda know what the fuck an Arkansas is? -1ctinus📝🗨 01:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Sure—it's something where my biased intuition is totally flawed, but will hopefully improve with time. Remsense ‥ 论 02:49, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Why is "Outline of" crossed out? -1ctinus📝🗨 01:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Per The Transhumanist's own advice (which I agree with) and outline house style: outlines aren't as common a reference type out in the world as the others, so it makes sense the title wouldn't be sufficiently clear like "List" or "Glossary" is, Remsense ‥ 论 02:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

One more comment before I go to bed: multiple discussions have been brought up over when and when not WP:SDNONE applies and it has never reached any consensus. It is of my opinion that clearly an RfC is needed to revise the guideline so it is far more obvious where it applies and where it doesn't. -1ctinus📝🗨 02:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that there are some head scratchers when it comes to when to use none and when not to use none for an SD. But one situation where SDNONE is spot on is ensuring the SD doesn't simply repeat the article's title. Masterhatch (talk) 13:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Quite a lot of people misunderstand short descriptions. They were introduced for disambiguation when someone uses a device to search for a title of interest. On typing "Joe Citizen", the device lists matching titles and displays the short description for each such as "politician" or "author (born 1960)". That information allows the user to select which page they want to visit. The guideline states that all articles should have a short description so that articles missing a description can be found and fixed. As WP:SDNONE explains, some titles need no disambiguation and "none" is used to mean that no short description is needed. Category:Articles with short description explains that what is actually tracked is use of the {{short description}} template—each article should have that template (possibly provided by another template). Johnuniq (talk) 09:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Added another example

I added Grover Cleveland's short description into WP:SDDATES. Sebbog13 (talk) 18:53, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Short descriptions for leaders

I set to "none" as intentionally blank short descriptions for titles of office holders, but the exception of Pope and Taoiseach. There are considered meaningless and not a definition. 102.213.223.46 (talk) 22:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

As I wrote on your user talk page:

These are not meaningless, If a country has a president and a prime minister, separating who is the Head of state and Head of government is important, this is the function of such short descriptions. Knowing which is HoS and HoG is important if you are in the search bar or wikilinking.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 22:42, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Monarchies, such as "Emperor of Japan", "King of Saudi Arabia" can be intentionally blank, rather than "Monarch of" per WP:SDNOTDEF? 102.213.223.46 (talk) 23:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

It is helpful to use actual short descriptions in such articles, since they disambiguate articles from similarly titled but not at all relevant articles like King of Wishful Thinking, King of the Hill, King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, The Emperor of All Maladies, etc. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:24, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Should we start reverting all these edits? They have made a lot without consulting senior editors, especially for an IP.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2024

Abkhazia is not a country . It is not partially recognized » abkhazia is a historical Geoegian territory occupied by the terrorist country-Russia in 1992. The UN never ever said otherwise. 92.54.250.112 (talk) 14:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Not the right page for this discussion. CMD (talk) 14:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)