Wikipedia talk:Teahouse/Host lounge/Archive 3

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How long?

Hello everyone, I applied to become a host a few days ago, but I still haven't gotten a talk page ping. How long does it usually take before you get the host message? Thanks, Nathan2055^talk 17:09, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Nathan. Poof... you're a host! You're welcome, The Host Fairy

more seriously: we'd love to have you stick around. :) Please feel free to move your name up to the hosts' list and definitely create a host profile for yourself. Then take a look at the host responsibilities, tips and how-to pages linked to from the main Lounge page. What we really need from hosts right now is to invite new editors to Teahouse. Without regular injection of newbies in need of help, the number of questions declines rapidly and Teahouse loses its relevance (or, worse, becomes a haven for certain kinds of under-bridge dweller with questionable motivations for questioning). Other than that, feel free to post ideas, share experiences, and stop by the IRC channel to say hi: it's not very active of late, but several of us are regularly logged in there.

Some of the best places to find newbies to invite are the invitee reports, the new editor contribs page, and Feedback dashboard. Let me or the other hosts know if you have any questions. Welcome to the team! - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 21:29, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Teahouse invitation #2

I've seen a lot of AFC declines when I've added the invite template to new user pages. Maybe we could tweak the invite or create an alternate invite that would say something like: Hello! I noticed your article was declined at Articles for Creation, and I know that can be disappointing. If you'd like to drop by the Teahouse and discuss the article, the friendly hosts at the Teahouse would be glad to see if they can offer improvement suggestions so that the article gets accepted. --Rosiestep (talk) 16:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC

I love that idea, Rosie!!! Sarah (talk) 16:07, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

For the sake of metrics, should we add a comment on the tracking spreadsheet, i.e. "AFC invite"? Rosiestep (talk) 16:28, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah..I think so. Will this new template utilize the original template? Sarah (talk) 16:31, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Let me know when this is done; I'll add it to the teahouse utility. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:33, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Sarah, I would think utilizing the original template should be fine... no need to re-invent the wheel, just tweak the wording. --Rosiestep (talk) 19:13, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

That's actually a great idea, can't wait to see what you guys come up with. Thanks, Nathan2055^talk 02:12, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I put out a bunch of invites earlier today, but go figure, no one had an AFC decline. Still, this is the template I thought I would use:

Hello! Teahouse, you are invited to join other new editors and friendly hosts in the Teahouse, an awesome place to meet people, ask questions, and learn more about Wikipedia. I thought it might be particularly helpful for you as I noticed your article was declined at Articles for Creation, and that can be disappointing. If you'd like to drop by the Teahouse and discuss the article, the experienced hosts at the Teahouse would be glad to see if they can offer improvement suggestions... and that may lead to the article becoming accepted. Please join us! Rosiestep (talk) 02:54, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Any suggestions? Rosiestep (talk) 02:54, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Being bold, I just used it for the first time on User:Rawender's talk page. Hope he makes a visit to the TH! Rosiestep (talk) 03:19, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Excellent idea! I might shorten it a little myself. heather walls (talk) 04:36, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Hello! Teahouse, I noticed your article was declined at Articles for Creation, and that can be disappointing. If you'd like to drop by the Teahouse and discuss the article, the experienced hosts at the Teahouse would be glad to see if they can offer improvement suggestions... and that may lead to the article becoming accepted. Please join us! heather walls (talk) 04:36, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Heather, I prefer your version. :) --Rosiestep (talk) 04:41, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Howdy all! As you may know, I'm Nathan2055 and I do a lot of work over at AfC. I'm also a newbie Teahoust host. If we dropped off one of these notice's on EVERY talk page of a declined article user, we could get HUNDREDS of new guests over here at the Teahouse and improve editor retention for the group that has trouble writing their first article. I'd love to see this integrated into the Teahouse scripts and eventually the AfC auto-review script. Very nice job! Thanks, Nathan2055^talk 17:05, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

The above template has been added to the Teahouse Utility script, along with a new section header. Custom AfC-related invite tags are also possible, check out the release notes (such as they are) for more details. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:32, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

The last couple days in Q&A, discussion and a proposal

I have mostly stayed to the sidelines while several of our hosts dealt with one (or more) disruptive editors on the Q&A board over the last three days. Overall, I was really impressed with how well the hosts involved performed. Thanks, guys and gals!

So I figured this would be a good time to start a discussion about how we should deal with this kind issue in future: clearly, having a bunch of off-the-wall questions from confirmed non-newbies and possible bad faith editors has a negative effect on the number of questions asked by actual newbies in need of help.

So, I'm suggesting a process for dealing with these kinds of questions in future, and I'd like your input: I propose that when a disruptive question (or, non-question, as the case may be) is asked by an editor who has a history of asking disruptive questions on Teahouse Q&A, one of us immediately moves that question to the question archive and then addresses it on the questioner's talk page. I feel like shifting discussion with these editors away from the Teahouse and onto the questioners talk page worked well for dealing with the issues of the last couple days. And by simultaneously archiving and addressing the question, we are able to keep the Q&A board an open and desirable place for actual newbies, while hopefully avoiding the possibility that a questioner will be angered by our disregard and will use that as further excuse to act out on Teahouse.

How does that sound to all of you? Anyone have alternate or supplemental suggestions? - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 17:23, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. The whole situation over the past few days has been disappointing and yet (unfortunately) inevitable. (Let's hope that he has the sense to keep his new sock's head down and out of trouble; he's off to a relatively promising start so far.) The only addition I'd make is that, when a host decides that the discussions with a user are to be moved to their talk page, there should be a central place for the host to record the decision, so that all other hosts know what's what. Perhaps the Questions talk page could be pressed into service for this, or should we add a host noticeboard somewhere? I'd say probably a noticeboard; we don't really want alerts like this showing up on guests' watchlists.

ADDENDUM: this would also be a good place for meta-discussion of such situations; I know that I was only really comfortable discussing the situation on IRC, which has obvious transparency, concurrency, and archiving issues. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:35, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree we should probably be redirecting more questions (at times it has not really felt like a calm Teahouse at all..). But maybe instead of just moving it to their talk page, some other place such as Wikipedia:Help desk might be more appropriate? Mlm42 (talk) 18:53, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I think if we can't help them, then we shouldn't be pawning the wacko comments and concerns at the help desk. I think bringing up dramatic weird questions ("Will I get blocked for asking a question at the Teahouse?") will only cause angst for the help desk and also cause them to be snappier than usual in responding. I'd rather see these things handled on the users talk page, which will also allow them to know that their drama and weird questions are best kept at said talk page. Sarah (talk) 19:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, if the editor is being (perhaps intentionally) disruptive, it seems kind of cruel to drop them on the Help Desk. But that's probably not what you were advocating! For something like this, I advocate taking it to their talk page, and perhaps suggesting a couple of forums, like Village Pump, dispute resolution, maybe help desk, wherever that might be better places to ask. But the reason for taking the conversation to the talk page in the first place is that there has been some indication that the editor's question is not sincere, or they have known malicious/dramatic tendencies. So there would be no sense in pointing them towards another Q&A site. If it's something like this, I think we should try to answer it in public, on the Q&A board, even if it's a bit beyond our scope. And in the course of that answer we can direct them towards more suitable forums. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 19:08, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I already feel bad enough for foisting people off to the venues that I do; I don't want to do it even more. :P Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:10, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

J-Mo, and Sarah, you're right, what you say makes sense. Rather than copying the question directly to another forum, it's probably better to copy it to their talk page, and then offer them suggestions for other forums (if it's appropriate to do so, of course). Mlm42 (talk) 19:16, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Per WritKeeper's suggestion, I added an announcements section to the Host lounge. We can use this space to post notices, such as questions that we've fast-track archived, as discussed above. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 20:41, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Archive box

Just noticed that MiszaBot has started/been archiving this page, but we currently have no way of easily accessing said archives. Can someone (who knows how to operate these newfangled auto-archive things) set that up? I only trust myself on manual archival... Nolelover ^{Talk·Contribs} 18:37, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Sure thing. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:47, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

UPDATE: done. :) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

What would we technical-incompetents do without you Writ :) Nolelover ^{Talk·Contribs} 20:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Seriously! - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 20:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Teahouse added to main Twinkle template (but still invite people with the template we know and love!)

Hi everyone. Just an FYI that a link to the Teahouse has been added to the main Template:Welcome, which is the first template offered in Twinkle. I still would like people to continue to invite people with the Teahouse templates we created (double whammy!!), but, just an FYI - we'll see if it helps, and it could be removed based on our outcomes during this pilot. So just an FYI =) Sarah (talk) 23:54, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Woot! Bring on the noobs. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 00:03, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I was also bold and added it to a bunch of other templates. We shall see!! Sarah (talk) 00:13, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Would you like me to add any of them to the Utility? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 00:28, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

They don't appear to be very popular templates, ha ha. And they are all already in Twinkle. I'm not sure if they need to be added anyplace else, but I'll leave that up to you? I'm probably a terrible person to ask about anything when it involves the word "utility" on Wikipedia, heh. Sarah (talk) 00:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, given that we probably prefer the templates we have now for inviting, I'll just leave it as is, unless someone else has a desire for them. First thing to do when something isn't broken is to stop trying to fix it. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 00:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you - that should make inviting easier. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 16:23, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Are there any metrics on which are the most commonly used welcome templates? The ones in Twinkle always appear quite old now and there are newer, more jazzy templates out there that I think are being used more. I try and avoid using the Twinkle ones for this reason. NtheP (talk) 21:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if this data is aggregated anywhere. I've got a list of top Twinkle warning templates, but that's kind of the opposite... - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 03:42, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia – The Missing Manual

When is it appropriate to suggest books on Wikipedia, either Wikipedia – The Missing Manual available right here, or electronic or paper books from Amazon, or B&N? I have been talking with a Teahouse guest because I reviewed a new article, and she is doing outstanding work creating new articles, but she is still learning about many techniques. I am very much a book person, trying to learn new things by reading a book at the start, but not everyone is like that. --DThomsen8 (talk) 16:15, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know why it would ever be inappropriate, really, as long as you're not just dismissing a guest with something like "See [[WP:MANUAL]]" as the entirety of your post. It's kinda similar to what we're looking for in terms of links to policy pages. My take on it is that it's okay to link to such things, as long as you also make an effort to explain what you're linking, what it means, and how it relates to the question. In a nutshell, I think that any good Teahouse answer should be able to stand on its own as a reasonable response, even if all the wikilinks were taken out of it. If that criterion is met, then, for me, I don't see a reason not to link to anything we think will be helpful. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:55, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

"I think that particular book is a great suggestion, since it's a pretty easy read, and free. In general, our survey results suggest that Teahouse visitors and new editors in general would like to see a list of help resources somewhere on Teahouse. I think this is would be a worthwhile add, as long as we can limit the list to a few, good help resources rather than an overwhelming list of links. It would probably also be good to 'annotate' said list, providing a brief, readable description of each resource we link to. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 19:57, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Many of the wp:Twinkle welcome pages provide a list of resources. Every time I see a red Talk in a history, I check their contribs, and add a welcome with Twinkle if appropriate. --DThomsen8 (talk) 20:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi all! I have experimentally added a link area to the guest page. (Starting with a link to the Q&A page to emphasize that guests are free to ask, also.) I would recommend not adding any more than one or two other links (if we choose to support this) because wall-of-text and saturation happens quickly. I think it is important to remain as simple as possible. Let me know what you think. heather walls (talk) 00:36, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Teahouse bot proposal - Host input needed!

Hi all, I'm putting together a proposal for HostBot, a bot which will primarily function to generate and update the daily invitee reports. Currently these reports are generated through my personal user account, a situation which arose because I needed to get reports working in time for Teahouse launch. But it's obviously not ideal or sustainable, especially as Teahouse shifts from a fellowship project to one that's purely volunteer-based.

What I need from you are a few quick testimonials in this thread, attesting the utility of the current report and the need for them to continue. So if you like the reports, and want them to continue, please post a few comments here! I know that we've discussed other useful tasks for HostBot to perform (on Wikipedia:Teahouse and its sub-pages), but for the proposal I'd like to concentrate on the reporting function. Thanks! - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 21:08, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a very good idea. Whenever I had invited users, the report has been incredibly useful for finding new users who may benefit from the project. Having a bot run update it makes perfect sense. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 21:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

No objection here. I don't use the report much (Wikignome - so use new edit contribs) but if it can be automated then fine. NtheP (talk) 21:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The database report is my go-to resource for Teahouse invites. I use it regularly. If a bot is needed to keep it functioning, then a bot is needed. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 21:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Excellent idea. I am a little concerned that the name Hostbot will cause some to wrongly assume that it is interacting directly with new editors rather than just making reports. Hostreportbot perhaps?

Well, I've thought about some other uses for it that would make "HostBot" a more appropriate name; I put em up on WP:Teahouse/Wishlist, if you wanna take a look. One of these days, when I get my act together (and a toolserver account approved), I'm going to ask more directly about input for these tasks. my dreams of empire from my frozen queen will come to pass! Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

This is perfect. Thanks! Submitting the proposal today. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 20:12, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Proposal submitted! - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 21:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Whoop! HostBot is approved for trial. Once the trial period is over, we can start solidifying suggestions of additional tasks for our new robotic friend. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 20:03, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

AfC contributors

I've been looking over some of the recenter AfC contributors and wondering about inviting them. Some of them seem ripe for the assistance we could offer them. How new to wikipedia should one be in order to fall within the Teahouse scope? --Rosiestep (talk) 16:25, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Hey Rosie! Great idea. IMHO, anyone can use the Teahouse if needed. I've asked questions here - as I know I'll get a faster and easier to understand response than digging on help pages and asking else where. (And badgering my same friends!) So, I'd say, anyone who needs help...invite them! Sarah (talk) 16:52, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I've added this suggestion and DThomsen8's twinkle/welcome suggestion to the Invite Guide's "Find promising new editors" section. Bold I am hehe! --Rosiestep (talk) 04:48, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like a very good idea. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 16:43, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Rosiestep, I already used your link to invite people! I'm not really a host but I wanted to try it out. Maybe we should add (yet another) invite to Writ's script that doesn't say "Welcome to WP" and "other new editors" in it, but is for experienced people who might like some assistance anyway. heather walls (talk) 17:06, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Heather, you are TOO a host! - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 20:01, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Please don't forget to add templates on the templates page too, please! Sarah (talk) 20:08, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Teahouse link removed from welcome template

Hi folks, just an FYI, the Teahouse link was removed from the main welcome template, the discussion can be found here: Template_talk:Welcome#Linking_to_the_Teahouse_on_the_welcome_template. Sarah (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Please read my post on Teahouse talk regarding today's edit war & proposed solutions

please provide feedback here when you get a chance. Thank you! - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 22:01, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Please don't forget to invite!

Hi everyone! We've had a major slump in invitations by hosts for the past week and a half (I was offline for a few days, too.) And despite a few bumps right now, please don't forget to invite new editors. Please please please! Sarah (talk) 14:38, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Invitation template

Should it be substituted (like most welcome templates)? In it's current condition, placed on a userpage it may be confusing or look too much like a "just add water" (can't find a better image :) template that has been placed there. Edit: also reduces replication lag from servers. benzband (talk) 18:54, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Have also created a (slightly rigged) version of the invitation ({{Teahouse invitation TW}}) so Twinkle users can opt it in to via the preferenced panel (see Wikipedia:Twinkle/doc for instructions).

Tested it here: Twinkle adds the template at the top of the page. benzband (talk) 19:18, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I would have sworn there was a discussion somewhere, and User:Jtmorgan has a lot more to say on this, but we aren't substituting templates due to the data measuring that he is doing. (See this history: [1] ) heather walls (talk) 20:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that is correct, that we can't substitute them so we can track them for our weekly and monthly metrics. So, if you are going to invite users, please do not substitute the templates. But, as Heather said, Jonathan can explain this a bit more than we can :) Sarah (talk) 20:15, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

That's all correct! I track template transclusions using a python script. It's a necessary safeguard, since inevitably not all invites are entered into the invite tracking spreadsheet. This can be changed after the pilot, but for now it's pretty necessary if we're going to get reliable numbers on whether inviting prompts people to visit, and then to subsequently stick around on Wikipedia. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 01:52, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Oops (duly noted). benzband (talk) 09:39, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Userboxes

For inviting new users (here):

For posting TB reply from the Q&A (here):

I'm...not a fan of the invitation one, for a reason similar to why I stopped working on my script to invite straight from the db report: anything that encourages people to invite new users without looking at their talk page/contribs/etc. is probably not a great idea. TB one's good, though; no reason not to make posting talkbacks as easy as possible. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:48, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Benzband, any reason not to use prefix instead of default in the <inputbox? Chico Venancio (talk) 19:57, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

These are really cool! And I also think that hosts should look at a user's talk page and contribs. We have shortcuts created by Writ Keeper and others that are here on the scripts page in the host lounge area to make it easy to invite while you are looking at a talk page. Also (for everyone) remember that right now while data is being collected, it is important to record those invitations on the spreadsheet. heather walls (talk) 20:44, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I also thought the invitation box wasn't such a good idea and assumed it would fail (if you don't believe me read my comment here :) but i thought i'd add it anyway as i'm trying things out. benzband (talk) 09:33, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

@ Chicocvenancio i'm not sure i get what you mean (isn't prefix for searches?), all i know is i copied the skeleton of the userbox from a previous one i'd made User:Benzband/Userboxes/Smile, in which i'd already used an inputbox. benzband (talk) 09:42, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Also i hadn't yet come across the teahouse scripts, which are probably even easier to use than this. benzband (talk) 14:07, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done it now uses prefix= instead of default=. Just input the username! benzband (talk) 17:35, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Spelling error in Teahouse maintence category

Thought I should note this, the Teahouse category Category:Users who got a Teahouse inventation is misspelled. I believe it should be "invitation", but I don't want to cause the bots to go nuts by moving it. --Nathan2055^talk 16:39, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Be bold! and fix it. It's a wiki ;) I was in rush... mabdul 17:06, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm fixing this now. :-/ --MZMcBride (talk) 20:12, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Lowercase and restructure

Due to stubbornness by an overprotective Wikipedian that doesn't let me do whatever to actually sync the formatting, I need consensus. I want to make everything lowercase except for the terms "Wikipedia" and "Wikimedia". Also, I want to resize the font and color for the "about", as shown here with the following text: "we are here to help new editors...". I wanted to resize the font so that the text stands out more to the reader, and partly to make it less messier. Please discuss. --J (t) 01:51, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for putting this up for discussion, Jeff. There are a lot of hosts here who have put a substantial amount of work into the Teahouse over the last seven weeks. It makes sense to me to talk about things before making big changes to the front-facing content and design. I guess that makes me overprotective? - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 01:56, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Hey Jeff! Glad to see you poking around here. J-mo just wants to make sure we get the input of all the folks involved here. There's been a ton of action, especially lately, and you know how we roll in Wikipedia - consensus rules! So..IMHO: no to the lowercase. While branding is one thing (a logo, so to say), I don't like the idea of having the text throughout most of the Teahouse lowercase. I'd actually like to see a mock up of the color and font change before it is solidified on the main page. Thanks for asking! Sarah (talk) 02:01, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

• Why do you want everything to be lowercase? I don't quite understand that...there just doesn't seem to be any reason for that change? Nolelover ^{Talk·Contribs} 02:26, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'm wondering about the reason, too. I think a mock up would help me to visualize your suggestion. --Rosiestep (talk) 03:33, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'd like to see a mockup too, lowercase in the wrong place is just poor grammar and if we're here to help new editors, not being able to get basic English right is a poor start. As an aside is it "the Teahouse" or "the teahouse"? I've tended to use T but I'm open to correction if it should be t. NtheP (talk) 07:54, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

It's "Teahouse" not "teahouse" Sarah (talk) 14:27, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Even after the lowercase correction it would be "Teahouse", like "Wikipedia" not "wikipedia". --J (t) 20:52, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Thinking some more about it, I'm flat out opposed to the lc idea... too much like an E. E. Cummings' poem. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:53, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

And it appears that even he didn't like his name used in lowercase. But yeah; I like the stylization of the banner being in all lowercase, but it's just that — a stylization. We don't need to enforce it everywhere. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:00, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

My proposal is that the article content stays grammatically correct. The layout part becomes lowercase, to make it like the logo and images are. So it would be nonsense of you to oppose, because the images are lowercase and therefore must be synced. --J (t) 20:52, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Barnstar..W00T

Check it! {{subst:Teahouse Barnstar|1=Put your message here. ~~~~}}

	Teahouse Barnstar
	For editors who have contributed to or made excellent contributions related to the Teahouse. Sarah (talk) 02:50, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Amazing work work by Heather! Sarah (talk) 02:50, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Heather, 'tis beautiful! --Rosiestep (talk) 03:29, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Very nice! Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 04:02, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Love it love it love it. Great job!--Hallows Aktiengesellschaft (talk) 09:43, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Started a discussion on it here at WPWPA ~ proposing it's addition to Barnstars by WikiProject. benzband (talk) 14:25, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

This is perhaps terrible of me, but, I always just go in and add them, without asking. I think I've done that with four barnstars now, ha. Sarah (talk) 14:26, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:31, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, that's not a problem really; we're watching the pages anyway so if it there's a problem with an addition someone will revert and then discussion starts. benzband (talk) 14:34, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Ack! My first trout :P Sarah (talk) 14:44, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Eh, more of a minnow. :) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:47, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

That trout minnow is adorable! I'll take one. heather walls (talk) 18:22, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

fried in batter? ^__^ benzband (talk) 18:23, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, they do come with a side: Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:27, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

 Added to WP:Barnstars 2.0 by WikiProject (diff) per consensus. benzband (talk) 13:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Duplicating effort with WP:AFCHD

I've no objection to inviting users who have submitted articles via WP:AFC but as about 50% of the question raised with us in the last few days have all been along the lines of "Why was my article declined?" aren't we duplicating the function of WP:AFCHD? Should we, out of courtesy be gently pushing questions about declined submissions to that forum? Perhaps by amending our script so that as well as inviting them to the Teahouse it says something along the lines of "If you have a question about why your article submission was declined please post a question at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk, anything else stop by the Teahouse" NtheP (talk) 16:19, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I had wondered about this (and about the many help desks in general) before, but it obviously wasn't an issue until we the new AfC Teahouse invite was created. I'm not sure that pushing them off to another help desk is a good idea...but the reviewers at AFCHD are also better equipped/knowledgeable to deal with specific AfC questions. The script change sounds like a decent compromise. Nolelover ^{Talk·Contribs} 19:46, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I totally agree with Nole. I'd like to support people as much as we can at the Teahouse, but, AfC does have a specific help desk, with specific knowledge that we can't provide. I really like the idea of changing the script. Great thoughts! (And let's keep being as friendly as we can to those editors who are still coming from AfC!) Sarah (talk) 20:59, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh, sure I never envisaged turning anyone away just trying to divert them to the more appropriate place upfront. If they still come here then we answer as we do now. NtheP (talk) 21:13, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I figured as much :) I did actually just respond to a new question by advising they go to the AfC Help Desk - since it was about having someone review their article faster. So..hopefully I didn't do too bad! Sarah (talk) 21:56, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Hey guys! Just following up - any word on if the script for the "twinkle" like script that Writ wrote can be updated with the new language for the template? Thank you thank you! Sarah (talk) 19:51, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, just change WP:Teahouse/AfC Invitation to whatever you like. My script just transcludes that page, so any changes to it will be used by the script. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:54, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Rock! I changed the lingo, feel free to improve upon it as needed! Sarah (talk) 19:59, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Having received the new version of the Afc-Teahouse template, DeyCallMeKaySo nonetheless posted his question at the Teahouse Q&A. What is it best to do then: reply here or direct to the AfC help desk? benzband (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Reply here, I'd assume. If they prefer the relaxedness of the Teahouse to the specialized eexpertise of the AfC Helpdesk, who are we to gainsay them? ;) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:19, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok, just making sure ^^ benzband (talk) 21:41, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

And as a AFCHD regular, I assure you that those extra questions aren't missed that much ;) Nolelover ^{Talk·Contribs} 23:48, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Observations of a Guest/WPNoobie

My apology for intruding but thanks to all of you for your time and efforts. For years I did minor edits without an account. Finally signed up in 2011 but wasn't active until March 2012. First thing to appear in my talk page was a standard Welcome. Gad, the thing has 65 links to WP articles! I felt overwhelmed rather than welcomed. I had (still have) a goal; revising, updating and correcting some bird articles. I knew I needed help so went in search of a mentor. Tried all who expressed an interest in science but ended up editing the page to move all of them to the inactive section. Thankfully, I discovered Pulma's adoptee homework assignments. WOW, a simple intro to WP that even includes fun stuff. I learned more in one night than in two weeks of muddling through the links in the official Welcome template.

Although still lost and confused by the Welcome links, I created my first article. It was short, just eliminating a redlnk. How? Not by following the Welcome template links. Birds & Blooms is listed as an ornithology journal. It's a gardening magazine; they think that birdhouses are garden ornaments rather than substitutes for natural nest sites depleted by land clearing and logging. I chose simple to create Living Bird. Click 'Edit' at Birds & Blooms, copy to my sandbox, substitute information on Living Bird and put in a few in-line citations from reliable sources. Done. Now I'm working on a complete revision of the article on Chimney Swifts. Am I using anything from my Welcome? Nope. My simple method is to use a featured article for a similar bird as a model for structure, style, form and content. I learned more reading good articles than reading Wikipedia rules and guidelines (that were all followed in the featured articles). My revision is slowly growing in my sandbox. I hope to complete a revision worthy of nomination as a featured article by mid-May.

I had one simple question: How to get the revision into mainspace? Sara provided a simple, straightforward answer, not a referral to WP pages. Thanks. The experience you offer, as Hosts, makes a huge difference. Thanks again. DocTree (talk) 06:58, 15 April 2012 (UTC) .

Thanks for the thoughtful explanation of your experience and your compliments to the hosts and Teahouse, Doctree! This kind of information is really helpful as the Teahouse concept develops. heather walls (talk) 22:45, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget - we're the Teahouse!

Hi everyone! I just wanted to send out a reminder to our awesome hosts and other guests who answer questions: remember, we're the Teahouse - we're a friendly bunch of folks who are here to help out new (and experienced!) editors when they have concerns and questions. So when you answer a question - be friendly, say hello, and welcome that editor to Wikipedia and the Teahouse. That's what makes us special! Dry, unemotional and policy filled questions are commonplace on Wikipedia, and we're trying to do something special. So, don't forget - say hello, be friendly and remember - if you were new at your job you'd want someone friendly, warm and smiling to greet you! Thanks everyone for your contributions!! Sarah (talk) 03:06, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Sarah. For my part, I know that the occasional reminder never hurts. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 19:04, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Aye! benzband (talk) 19:06, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Good advice. I've been trying to welcome new users as much as possible. I've also found signing off can be quite useful, too - a quick "I hope that helps, let me know if you need any more assistance", or similar. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 21:25, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Yep, that's surely the best way to go about it ~ make the person at the asking end feel free to ask more questions. [I've got a following to this comment but it's too hard to explain ~ believe me i tried several times in "preview" mode :] benzband (talk) 21:40, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

The friendliness factor at the Teahouse leads to its 'stickiness', the reason why people come back! --Rosiestep (talk) 03:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Vandals, beware!

If there are vandalism-related questions there's also a project in it's launching phase at the CVU, as part it's overhaul: the Academy, with it's own Q&A page bust most of all a mentoring program which may interest some editors (say, if they are seeking advice on how to fight vandalism or on the other hand if anyone is an experienced vandal-fighter interested in being an instructor). (And yes, this is an unscrupulous product placement –but entirely commandeered by me ;-) benzband (talk) 15:22, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Nice tip. If this is your idea of unscrupulous product placement, benzband, keep the spam a-coming. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 18:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

My reply – to Host Tips

Main message was posted here: Host tips
My reply:
I am writing my points below, feel free to speak against these or discard these if you have better point. I am always fan of debate
1) Talkback template: I do not use talkback template.... even simple {{tb}} template too. I find it too official. I manually type my message (eg. I have posted a reply to your "ABC" question, you can find it here.) And it takes more time to type manually! I dislike specially the footer of tb template "It is okay to remove this template after reading...", you'll find some people actually remove tb template after reading.. but I have never found anyone removing my message. There is no problem in tb template (99%+ Wikipedians use it), but there are some people I think, who dislike it.
2) Hi, thank, little jargon: Yes, I sometimes use it, specially when I am going to criticize someone I (sometimes) do not come to main point directly (eg. I completely disagree with your this edit in this article..), I add some jargon (etc. Hi, ABC, how are you? I want to inform you I do not completely agree with your this edit in this article, since I feel...)...

Also, I sometimes notify an asker multiple times about same question, see example here, here the the Afc reviewer he complained against posted a reply (I asked her to post), so I informed the asker once again about the new reply.. (once again typed my message manually).. --Tito Dutta ^Message 18:15, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Teahouse/Invitation

Would anyone mind me moving Wikipedia:Teahouse/Invitation to Template:Teahouse invitation? It's really a template and not a project page. MBisanz ^talk 00:46, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Agreed that this and other invites should be moved eventually. But can we wait about 2 more weeks? I'm tracking the template in several scripts, and would rather not update all of them right now. I'll even sweeten the deal by promising to take responsibility for moving them myself once I've published the May 15 metrics. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 01:02, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Sure thing. At your leisure. MBisanz ^talk 02:02, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

"Friendly space"

Hi everyone. I've been a little concerned about some of the "wacky" questions that have been popping up at the Teahouse lately - this happened about a month ago with some editors (one who ended up being an epic sock puppet). This stems back to a previous discussion we had here Wikipedia_talk:Teahouse/Host_lounge/Archive_3#The_last_couple_days_in_Q.26A.2C_discussion_and_a_proposal. We decided that when disruptive activities take place on the Teahouse that we would move that conversation either to the appropriate talk page (like Wikipedia talk:Teahouse) or to that users page. Today, I removed two disruptive posts - one with an over eager Monareal (the Shiek) and the other post by him I moved to the Teahouse talk page about asking to be a host (?!). I'm thinking perhaps we can start to craft some friendly space policies which serve as casual guidelines for hosts to be bold when needed to ensure that the Teahouse is friendly, safe, and welcoming. I figure a "policy" like this would include concepts about handling disruptive users, moving content that isn't part of the Teahouse scope (for lack of a better word), how to work with hosts and non-hosts when they aren't providing helpful answers or friendly answers, etc. What do ya'll think? I think it'd be great to work together to ensure we feel comfortable taking action when needed and making sure that the all editors don't feel confused by the Teahouse content or unhelped (so to say). Looking forward to your thoughts! SarahStierch (talk) 14:21, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Moving those two threads was right - that one user is becoming a bit of a problem (I had a look at his contributions, out of 500 edits only 15 have been to mainspace). The problem is that none of the questions were totally out of place, the one about using a banned users userpage has a logic to it and explaining for the benefit of others that the answer is No is within the scope of the Teahouse. That said I don't think there is anything wrong in adding to the answer via user talk pages and if those are in part wikiquette e.g. WP:CIVIL, WP:DONTBITE, WP:CAPSLOCK then so be it. I think we already have some of the things we need in place e.g. Wikipedia:Teahouse/Your hosts so any non-host who gets a bit "formal" or uses to much wiki-speak can be gently reminded of the preferred way of working round here.

I don't think we have wacky questions just one or two editors who for reasons unknown don't feel reassured enough to go their own way. It's a bit like swimming lessons, most people are now swimming unaided or at least just with armbands but there are always going to be some who cling to the side for dear life until such time as they have to be prised off. Rubbish analogy I know but although we haven't produced any Rebecca Adlingtons yet, pretty much all the people we've had through can now Dog paddle so we don't need to get too worried about the odd ones. WP:TALKO is a decent set of guidelines to work to and even if we think it's wrong to move threads we could always collapse them. NtheP (talk) 17:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

First of all, collapsing distracting threads is a splendid idea (tho we'll need to come up with some reasonably specific guidelines for what merits a collapse. Are there existing policies/guidelines around this issue?). Second of all, I pretty much loved your swimming lessons analogy. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 18:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really sure that specific guidelines are needed. If a dude is clearly a troll (as Mona is), just collapse it. There's a certain je ne sais quoi that I think we can all recognize in a troll post, but I'm not sure I could put a name to it that's sufficient to serve as a guideline. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

@ Writ Keeper → m:What is a troll?

Ignoring a question isn't great because it defeats the purpose of the place (ie. answering questions); and dealing with it too vigorously is obviously not a solution. But when it's crap, or clearly bad-faith, then i'd suppose a collapse/move to appropriate quarters followed up by an explanatory note on the poster's talkpage should do the trick. Though the fact that the "dude" may have been behaving trollishly in other areas shouldn't be carte blanche to censor him. Most people can probably be reasoned if approached sensibly/in a friendly manner. benzband (talk) 11:54, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Note: Monareal (or Mona) may now be referred to as Mir Almaat 1 S1.

I'd prefer postponing instruction creep. Hosts recognize the wacky ones as we're experienced editors. I think any host should be able to move the wacky conversation to a more appropriate page and include appropriate edit summaries (i.e. let's do what Sarah's been doing). It's common sense that when applicable, we should continue the conversation on the user's talkpage explaining what was done. Let's figure out how to do collapsing for the borderline wacky ones, which will also be good for long drawn out questions that are not wacky. And let's agree not to trout the host if someone disagrees with how a particular wacky was handled. --Rosiestep (talk) 15:23, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm with Rosie. Collapsing is easy - it's uses {{cot}} and {{cob}} before and after the text to be included. {{cot}} supports a parameter |title= - insert the question title in this and job done. The colour of the title bar can be changed to so if there is a Teahouse collapse colour anyone wants to use, just need to suss out the appropriate code.

An example

This is the title text

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

NtheP (talk) 15:47, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd say that the top "question" on the question page is a prime example of when we should collapse. It's not really a question but a request for article expansion, it's been answered and the OP has responded. I don't think it really helps anyone else to learn about WP so there is no disadvantage by collapsing it. NtheP (talk) 17:22, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi! I've added a background color to this box if anyone wants to use it, let me know if you'd prefer to make it more visible. My thoughts about collapsing that particular question are that someone new might come along and want to help with that article. (Early on we had people asking where they could contribute.) heather walls (talk) 17:33, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Like the colour. I still think it could be collapsed because the title would still be showing, so anyone interested can expand for more information. NtheP (talk) 17:43, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

True! :) heather walls (talk) 17:44, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

OK I've done a BOLD thing and collapsed a topic on the question page. As it was about the brief Twinkle outage and the dicussion was between hosts, I don't think new users are going to be adversely affected by it's collapse. Meant to add, happy to be reverted if my voew not supported. NtheP (talk) 10:47, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Is there a way to justify the text so it's on the left of the collapse box? It's so obvious that it's there, it almost defeats the purpose of making something less noticeable. I wonder if having it justified to the left it might make it look more inline with the other subjects. I still think removing content is easier. I also don't think that my question is the prime example of the type to remove (as we have had new editors ask about Twinkle in the past), but, I'm fine with it being used as an example. Especially since I'm still new to Twinkle. Sarah (talk) 13:31, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

It does support left alignment - wasn't on the template page but a recent addition on the talk page. Q page amended. NtheP (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Much better! Thanks! Sarah (talk) 14:40, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I added a title so new editors know how to see the hidden text". Any thoughts? NtheP (talk) 17:42, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

latest question about nasa

Hi. I'm preparing to grab my shuttle to the airport and I don't have time to learn and install the template - can someone please collapse the NASA template question perhaps? Just a suggestion. Thanks! Sorry or I'd be bold myself! Sarah (talk) 09:25, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I tried, but encountered several problems with the templates i used. As the question is at the top of the page, next to the TOC, {{collapse}} won't wrap or contract (leaving a big blank space) and {{hidden}} won't contract (covering up the TOC). So i've left it "as is" to not damage the layout. :/ benzband (talk) 10:38, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I've got a temporary fix by using {{hidden}} and setting width to 75%, one the question is past the bottom of the TOC it can be reset to 100%. I think the issue lies with the floating TOC - see {{TOC right}}. NtheP (talk) 14:20, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

AfC support!

Brace yourselves for a lot more questions! An update was pushed to the popular AfC helper script, and it know supports dropping off Teahouse invites! It uses the custom template found at User:Nathan2055/Teahouse Invite. Please note that this could lead to over fifty more questions here PER WEEK! If you have any questions, feel free to reply. Thanks, Nathan2055^talk 15:09, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Right on Nathan! So far AfC has been a great resource for new editors to be encouraged to stop by. This is great news. Thanks! Sarah (talk) 15:25, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Mabdul is actually working on pushing an update that will auto-detect if a user is invited or not. As well, several people on Teahouse IRC have mentioned that I should template space my custom invite. I'm fine with that, but I'd like to know where I should move it to. Thanks, Nathan2055^talk 16:43, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

As you can seen in the source code, the AfC helper tool uses following for the invitations: Wikipedia:Teahouse/AFC_invitation. Regards, mabdul 17:09, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

/me facepalms. Someone copy-paste moved the template already. It appears to be the same source code as mine, so I'll archive mine. --Nathan2055^talk 17:14, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Nathan. I think that was me :) - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 01:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. It looks like I messed something up, and added a duplicate AfC template page. Because now we have two! Wikipedia:Teahouse/AFC_invitation and Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC_Invitation. It looks like /AfC_Invitation is the one that's being used. /AFC_invitation (the dupe I created) doesn't appear to be actively used. Just to be safe, can someone confirm that this is correct? I want to make sure the duplicate template isn't being used in someone's script before I request deletion (tho if it is being used, it's not transcluding properly...). - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 02:02, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Just double-checked to confirm: Teahouse Utility uses the capital I one (the one that I created). Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 05:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

If the Teahouse Utility you mean the AfC helper script, it looks like it uses the dupe (lowercase "i"). So I suggest that this script be updated to use the Teahouse/AfC_Invitation instead, to make things consistent. I also see from the script /doc that this script is substituting the template, rather than transcluding it. This means I won't be able to track which users are being invited via this route, meaning that they won't be included in any invite metrics I run. I would prefer to track these invites, obviously, but if Timotheus/Mabdul/anyone else is transclusion-averse I guess I won't raise a stink about it. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 23:59, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Simply redirect the one to the other one. Redirects are cheap! I'm waiting for an admin substing my new improvements of the script to Tim's. I have a check for already invited persons (so even if the checkbox is triggered, the script won't invite the person again), moreover it is also added to the edit summary (that an invitation was added). My 'test script' is located at User:mabdul/afchelper4.1.js (please don't use it, it can be randomly break because of testing more and new things). mabdul 14:25, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done. Script updated. Please clear your browsers cache ;) mabdul 14:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Just wanted to alert everyone that I'm going ahead and redirecting all duplicates to the capital I template in high usage. Thanks, Nathan2055^talk 20:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

 Done - Completed redirecting. I'm going to ask Mabdul to update the AfC script with this along with some other bug fixes. Thanks, Nathan2055^talk 20:19, 1 May 2012 (UTC)