Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Public art/IndianaStatehouse

Article naming conventions

Just a quick thought regarding article naming conventions, which are very specific in Wikipedia. This might be a topic that one of the other Wikipedia-topic-expert Leadership Roles might want to consider reading up on and sharing with the class. Or we can discuss it as a class one day. Either way; something to think about streamlining as a class. HstryQT (talk) 01:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Is anyone familiar with any naming conventions regarding bust sculptures? Just wondering if we should come to a consensus as a class about whether they should be named "Bust of (name of person)" or "(name of person) Bust", since our articles would have more continuity if we all did the same thing. If anyone has run across any info about this or can shed light on the subject, please share! Emilyjanowiak (talk) 01:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The info connected to the article template says not to call things, "Portrait of...", so I assumed I shouldn't say "Bust of..." For my article on the bust of Col. Richard Owen, I just called it Colonel Richard Owen and then put the artist name in parentheses. For my other sculpture, though, I'm not sure what to do. It's the relief plaque of Abe Lincoln that doesn't really have a title and there's both a designer and a sculptor. I have no idea how to name it.Rearnold22 (talk) 16:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)Rearnold22

I agree with Rosie about not including "Bust of..." in the article title. In the Wikipedia Manual of Style for Visual Arts, it says the following: "Avoid "Portrait of Fred Foo" titles, if the individual is named – just use "Fred Foo", with disambiguation as necessary, even if the museum uses "Portrait". I'm thinking that in the case of the busts, it's going to be a similar situation. However, it will be up to each individual to change his or her article title, so at this point all I can do is recommend that we communicate about a unified way to do it. If anyone wants to discuss this matter further, please post! Emilyjanowiak (talk) 14:48, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

While naming conventions most naturally would fall into the registration department, everyone should feel free to correct names that are obviously wrong. --RichardMcCoy (talk) 16:34, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm still unclear on how we should be naming the busts. Should we give the name of the individual with the artist's name in parenthesis, i.e. Daniel W. Voorhees (Voorhees), or the individual's name with the type of object in parenthesis, i.e., Daniel W. Voorhees (bust)? Sorry for the confusion.--KMSchmidt (talk) 17:46, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (visual_arts)#Article titles. Two things are pertinent here:

-"If the title is not very specific, or refers to a common subject, add the surname of the artist in brackets afterwards, e.g. Reading the Letter (Picasso). It is better to disambiguate by the artist's name than by medium, as there may be other paintings or sculptures of the same name by other artists."

-"Avoid "Portrait of Fred Foo" titles, if the individual is named – just use "Fred Foo", with disambiguation as necessary, even if the museum uses "Portrait"."

I would apply their suggestion about portraits to busts. For this reason, I would not include busts in the title, but rather would do what Emily did with Christopher Columbus (Vittori). This follows all of the parameters that they've listed. If there is no artist, I would continue with typical naming convention suggestions of including the place of the artwork ie: (Indianapolis). But this is only necessary when the artwork or bust has a generic name. Your Here I Grew Up is fine the way it is.

If someone wants to take on the task of moving articles to their more appropriate names, that'd be fantastic. If there are still comments or suggestions about a better way to apply the Wikipedia naming conventions to our articles, I'm all ears. I know that this isn't cut and dry. HstryQT (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thank you! I'll try to move some of the bust pages over.--KMSchmidt (talk) 18:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to you both! --RichardMcCoy (talk) 19:07, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I am confused about the naming process. I understand putting the artist's name in parentheses following the title of the sculpture, but in the case of a name--Thomas A. Hendricks (Park). It was originally Thomas A. Hendricks (sculpture). How does a person doing a Wikipedia search know Thomas A. Hendricks (Park) is an artwork and not an article about the person? Cassie2008 (talk) 00:55, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

It is implied base on the artist's name in parentheses. If there was still an issue, many editors would also create a disambiguation page for Thomas A. Hendricks and list both (or however many there are) articles and a short description of what each one is.HstryQT (talk) 01:02, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Adoption requests

A lot of new editors involved in this project have requested to be adopted through the adopt-a-user program, which is excellent, but there are a few things worth noting. Adopt-a-user is currently backlogged and needs a lot more people involved, so requests are not being fulfilled in a timely manner. The earliest unprocessed request is from September 2010, so it will take a while before those involved in this project will be offered adoption. Students are encouraged to seek out their own adopter from the list of adopters, but even then it will be difficult to be adopted. Not being adopted doesn't mean there's no place to seek help though! If anyone needs help, they're always free to ask other users, use the {{helpme}} template, or ask at places like the Wikipedia:New contributors' help page. Netalarm^talk 04:54, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks, Netalarm. We really didn't have any experience with the adopt-a-user program so we thought we'd try it out. We'll make sure the students know of the resources you provided. Many thanks! --RichardMcCoy (talk) 11:30, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Spelling/Grammar Guru

Do we have one? Mkadams888 (talk) 21:50, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe so, but I think we can all pitch in and help each other out on that front. One person might miss things others would catch. Plus it's a lot of work to copyedit everyone else's articles. --Driefler (talk) 21:25, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good...I've missed silly mistakes before! I was also going to suggest that we could each choose 2 articles to review in a few weeks. Mkadams888 (talk) 00:54, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Flickr Updates

Just wanted to let everyone know that I have added photos from one of my pieces to the Public Art at the Indiana Statehouse group on Flickr (I'll get photos for the other one posted after the 16th when we invade the Statehouse!). If you'd like to see the way I titled and tagged them, feel free to take a look. I have also posted links to two example photos, which can be found on the Flickr Guidelines sub page for our project in the "help & examples" section. As you begin to take/upload photos to our Flickr group, please let me know if you have any questions!Emilyjanowiak (talk) 01:25, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to those of you who have posted your photos to the "Public Art at the Indiana Statehouse" group on Flickr! It's coming along, but we still need many more pieces to be added before the completion of the project. A couple of reminders for you:

• Please be sure you read the Flickr Guidelines, especially when it comes to titles and tagging. We want our project to appear professional and uniform, and the only way this can happen is if everyone titles and tags their photos appropriately. If you've already posted your pieces but haven't used our class format, never fear! You can always go back in and change the titles after the fact.
• Remember that you need not post ALL of your photos of the artwork on the group page. One photo of each side plus a couple of detail shots will do the trick. However, you may post as many photos of the artwork as you wish on your personal Flickr page, so if people are browsing and want to see more, they can check out your individual collection of photos. If we all post multiple shots of the same side, etc., the group page will become bogged down and harder for the public to browse.

As always, if you have any questions or concerns, just let me know! Emilyjanowiak (talk) 19:21, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Emily,

I am trying to post my pics to the Save Outdoor Sculpture! group and it won't let me because I am missing "geo information". Is that coordinate information? My camera doesn't do that so I am not sure how to add that to the picture so I can add it the group or if I will even be able to. I'm looking into it, but haven't found anything yet. Didn't know if you knew anything. Thanks! Deannarcundiff (talk) 00:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Deanna,

You may have run across this information as well in your searching, but it looks like the administrator of a Flickr group can determine whether or not they will allow non-geotagged photos into the group...so if the admins of SOS! say it has to be geotagged, it won't be added. I'm looking into whether or not you can add the information if your camera doesn't do it automatically. I think when you edit your photos you still have the option of dragging them onto a map to let people know where they were taken, but I'm not sure if that's the only thing you'd need to do to get them accepted into the group. I'll keep working on it and let you know if I figure anything out! Thanks! Emilyjanowiak (talk) 21:43, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Emily,

I dragged the photos to the location on the map where they were taken and then it allowed me to add those photos to the group. So if anyone else has an issue with not being able to add photos to a group because it has to be geotagged then doing the above should do the trick. Thanks! Deannarcundiff (talk) 01:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello, all!

I hate to keep harping on this, but as the Flickr Tsar, it is my duty to bug you once more about titling/tagging your photos correctly. Overall, things are looking pretty good on our group page. However, there are some participants who are still not adhering to the guidelines. If you get a chance, please double check your photos and make sure your titles follow this format:

• Format: Name of piece, description of viewpoint
• Example: “Christopher Columbus, proper left”.
• Detail Format: Name of piece, the words “detail of”, description of what the detail is.
• Example: “Christopher Columbus, detail of scratch”.

I hate to call out individuals on this, but I (and I'm guessing the rest of the group, Richard, etc.) would like to see a strong, unified collection of photos. The only way to accomplish this is if everyone agrees to the same title/tag conventions. Over the next few days if there are still titling/tagging errors, I will be contacting the individuals who posted the photos to see if they have any questions or need help with the formatting. Thanks!Emilyjanowiak (talk) 15:10, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

It's puzzling to see how many people have not followed your guideline, Emily. While of course I'm paying attention to how folks are uploading their images to Flickr, I welcome you and others to point out obvious errors. --RichardMcCoy (talk) 16:35, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

"The Pillars" Subpages

The links to these pages have been moved to our Project Page to make them more easily accessible. They contain important information, so please check them out! Mkadams888 (talk) 00:19, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

External and Internal Links

Go to our Project page to find information about how to correctly create external and internal links in your Wikipedia articles. Remember to click on your links and ensure that they actually work! Mkadams888 (talk) 12:25, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Project Resources (What the Contacts have to say)

Below you will find the information that the class contacts have provided to the class. If you are looking for the BIG BIBLIOGRAPHY you will find it on the main project page. Emtrix (talk) 03:44, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Indiana Historical Society

Update: I heard from Steve Haller and did a little recognizance in the IHS archives for myself, I don't think there is much there for us to utilize, there are photos/drawings of the Statehouse in various iterations, before it was rebuild and during the rebuild, etc. But no photographs of specific artworks. There are a few political pamphlets from various governors who we have busts or monuments of, so it might be worth a look for supplemental contextual info. But on the whole I think the archives, the Historic Bureau and the State Museum might be better resources.CLAvalon (talk) 23:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Indiana Landmarks

I recently contacted Suzanne Stanis at Indiana Landmarks. I told her about our class project and she was more than happy to share with me all the info she had that could help me and our class. She pulled out files from the original SOS! Project and pulled everything in relation to the Statehouse and it's renovation in the late 80s. She pulled files which has newspaper clippings and I found a file with original SOS! paperwork for my object. If you have an object outdoors, you might be able to see and copy original SOS! paperwork. What I will tell you is that it is minimal information and basically a vertical file of museum clipping.

Please see me/post a message on the talk page for her contact information.

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicole.m.m (talk • contribs) 02:55, 15 November 2010 (UTC) 

Indiana State Library

I visited the State Library and spoke with a couple librarians there about resources on statehouse artworks. There does not seem to be a lot of information on them but there is a little. Their catalogue of published books is searchable online and there are a couple of books published on the statehouse, which might have information on artworks but it's no guarantee. If you know when your artwork was placed in the statehouse you can search their collection of Indianapolis newspapers (on microfilm!) to see if their was a story on it. The most promising resource I found was in the clippings files, which contain newspaper clippings and pamphlets. Under the heading of Statehouse-Artwork there is a file folder dedicated to the artworks of the statehouse. Unfortunately, it's not very large and mostly contains articles on the huge mural in the senate chamber. I flipped through the clippings and saw specific mention of (not necessarily detailed articles but it's something!) the following artworks:

• Wilkie Plaque
• George Washington statue
• Coal Miners statue
• Morton statue & reliefs

There were generic lists of the artworks of the statehouse and where they are in the statehouse (i.e. around the rotunda) but they only gave the name of the statue and why that person was commemorated. I can try to answer anymore questions that come up! Kmassman26 (talk) 01:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

IUPUI Libraries

The IUPUI Libraries did not have any primary resources concerning the Indiana Statehouse. Herron had resources available for basic information on American artists and about the processes involved in creating the artworks. After speaking with the reference librarians at both the IUPUI University and the Herron Libraries, they strongly advised that students would find more pertinent resources at the State Library, the Indiana Historical Society, or the State Archives.

Concerning our area of research for this project, here are some of the resources available from IUPUI:

Warkel, H., Krause, M., and Berry, S.L. The Herron Chronicle . Herron School of Art, Indiana University Press, 2003. This is a history of the Herron School of Art, from 1883-2002. It contains a list of faculty and graduates, as well as the years they were at Herron; this list is important if anyone's assigned artist was a graduate or taught at Herron.

Falk, Peter Hastings, ed. Who Was Who in American Art 1564-1975: 400 Years of Artists in America, Vol. I A-F. Soundview Press, 1999. The Herron Library had several of the Who Was Who in American Art volumes in the stacks. This was particularly helpful in finding basic information about an artist, such as their profession (i.e. sculptor, painter, etc.), residence, birth and death data, early art training, memberships held, exhibition and award record, where the artist's work can be found, and the last volume of the Annual in which the artist was listed.

Lauter, Flora. Indiana Artists (active) 1940. Spencer, IN: S.R. Guard, 1940.

This resource only had one entry for any of the artists on the list: David K. Rubins. The listing described his professional training, awards, and commissions. It also mentions him being a faculty member at Herron at that time.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlskiba (talk • contribs) 08:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC) 

State Archives

Three folders may be of interest for research. I have contacted Mr. January to set these folders aside for us.

1) The first folder contains all the details regarding the construction of the State House, including bills of receipt, contractor's notes, type of materials used and their costs, etc. This folder is fragile (the binding is loose) so try to be careful with it.

2) The second folder contains a letter from director Alan January to State Senator Steele. Mr. January was asked to find information about the woman who posed for the "Justice" statue and where it was carved. This folder has some photocopies of contemporary newspaper articles and other corresponding research materials.

3) The third folder contains pamphlets from the State House over the last century. The folder also has the research materials used to write the pamphlets, including sketches of artwork locations. Each artwork has about two or three sentences, mostly the name, artist, and date the artwork was commissioned.

Contact information: The Indiana State Archives is located on 6440 East 30th Street. They can be contacted by calling (317) 591-5222. Hours 9-4 Mon-Fri (not open on Thursday). Closed on holidays. When you arrive, you have to sign in. The archives are also available online. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KMSchmidt (talk • contribs) 15:42, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Clarification:

• Folder #1 is called the Finding Aid/Inventory to the Records of the Board of State House Commissioners. It is in a manila colored wrapper on the shelf behind the reference desk.
• The other two folders are together in one of the “Finding Aid” cabinets in the ready reference room. The folders are under “State House.” A staff member can retrieve them.--KMSchmidt (talk) 22:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Statehouse

The Indiana Statehouse has very limited resources for researching individual artworks. Here's what's available:

1. Indiana State Museum Inventory (MIMSY)
2. Pamphlet on Frances Willard relief
3. Two articles on Benjamin Harrison bust
4. Correspondence citing article on theft of Robert D. Owen bust; Indianapolis Star, 19 September 1970.

Materials are held at the Information Desk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tricia Gilson (talk • contribs) 21:56, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

IMCPL

Consult paper given out in class for specific details about Indy Star articles, Public Arts Indy website that has info on specif works, and items that are a waste of time to look at. Emtrix (talk) 04:09, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

If you need reference material from the Indiana Room you must stop at the 6th floor information desk and fill out paper work. The librarians will obtain the material for you. The public is not allowed in the room.

• Indiana History and Indiana County Histories

Books available (R973.9-R977.2) on 6th floor and Indiana Room

• Taylor, Robert M. (et al.) Indiana, A New Historical Guide

Book available (R917.72 IND)on 6th floor and Indiana Room; Pg. 397 mentions Statehouse artworks.

• Grieff, Glory-June. Remembrance, Faith and Fancy: Outdoor Public Sculpture in Indiana

Book available (R730.9772 REM) on 4th floor; This book references the work done for SOS! and pp. 164-166 mention artworks outside of Statehouse.

• Vertical files

Newspaper clippings available on 4th floor next to restrooms; Artist files are listed in alphbetical order. Also look in Architect F-H drawer for "Indiana - Art" folders by date.

• Artist encyclopedias

Available on 4th floor in the reference section; for well known artists

• Periodicals
  • Indiana History Bulletin: 1985 & 1986
  • Arts Indiana: 1987 - 2010
  • Indiana Magazine of History: 1999-2010

Available on 3rd floor

IMA

I visited the Stout Reference Library at the IMA this past week. They may be a great help to people who know there artists, especially if those artists are from Indiana. The Library has a fairly extensive Artists File collection and the librarians are more than happy to help anyone search for their artist. There is a folder at the front desk of Statehouse articles. Most of this information is pertinent the following artworks:

Individual Articles:

• Young Abe
• Lincoln Mural, including a black and white photograph

In "Round-the-Rotunda Quiz" Article:

• Hendricks
• Columbus Bust
• Oliver Morton and Reliefs
• Coal Miner Memorial
• Colonel Richard Owen

Two other articles have been noted on the Project Bibliography page. I will see about scanning them and adding them to Oncourse for easier access, however it may take me some time and may be better for people to just go to the IMA.

Quotations

I've added a link under No Original Research under the Five Pillars on the Project Page about Quotations. I have a great quote from my artist describing his sculpture that I thought was necessary for the article. Others might find it helpful if they need to add a quote from someone. Deannarcundiff (talk) 16:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Sculpture terminology

Hello! In one of my articles, another user removed the word "proper" every time it was used to refer to a part of the sculpture (proper left, etc.). I just wondered if anyone else had this experience, and whether or not it was a Wikipedia convention to leave out that particular word. If so, I can go into my other article and take it out. I can see how it might be a confusing term to the average reader, but I also like the fact that it adds specificity. Anyway, don't know how many people are still checking the talk page, but if you have any thoughts, let me know! Emilyjanowiak (talk) 14:40, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

It is very art specific terminology and I don't know how I feel about keeping it or not. I understand why it was taken out - not many people know what it means. It may be a problem that more articles suffer from if not addressed, though. I know this doesn't answer your question directly but adds another element for discussion: if the articles do keep "proper left" and "proper right" is there a way to link to the Wiktionary from an article? If so, an entry could be created there for both terms and then the artciles can link to that.Emtrix (talk) 16:25, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Smart solution! HstryQT (talk) 16:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Just browsing your page after following a link from the page naming discussion: I'll paste below a comment I put on nicole's page a few days ago on this question of "proper":

• I've not come across the use of "proper right" and "proper left" before. I could work out what they mean, but it brought me up short in reading the articles. I wonder whether just "his right" (for his parting) etc would be more helpful for the non-specialist Wikipedia reader? (I've had a look at Mona Lisa and Night Watch (painting), as the first 2 artworks which came to mind, to see usage, and can't find "proper" used in either of them). This might be something to discuss with your colleagues or tutor - in the Mueller article there's a lot of right and left in the description, and I don't know what the standard usage is when writing for a non-specialist audience. Possibly "the observer's right" etc for the Mueller, reversing what you've done? Could be worth looking at some of Wikipedia's best art articles - you can see the list at Wikipedia:Featured_articles#Art.2C_architecture_and_archaeology. There aren't many realistic sculptures in the list to use as models, as far as I can see, unfortunately.

And another thought: ask the folk at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts. PamD (talk) 08:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I saw this discussion and thought maybe I could help, so I wrote a stub article in sandbox form about proper right and left. My thought was that each article that uses the term could link to it. I think it frames the terms as concepts requiring explanation as opposed to mere definitions and thus justifies its existence on WP instead of Wiktionary. Unfortunately, it has no references and could probably use some style cleanup as well. But it could be a decent starting point at least. Here it is: User:Twchalwick/Proper right and left

-Twchalwick — Preceding unsigned comment added by Twchalwick (talk • contribs) 17:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Images

Just a passing thought: is there any good reason why you put your PD images such as File:BoltonSangernebo.jpg into English Wikipedia space, rather than uploading them into Commons where they are accessible for use in other Wikipedias too? My understanding is that the only reason to put an image into Wikipedia space was in cases such as logos where there are copyright reasons it can't go into Commons. Apologies if you've discussed this thoroughly already - I haven't looked at all your project's pages. PamD (talk) 09:30, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

This was just an instance of students following the assignments to a T and the assignments not pointing out this consideration to them ahead of time (the date of the work and potential PD versus non-free). So many were uploaded as if they were non-free, but later had their tags changed. These PD images are in commons now (or should be), but the Wikipedia versions are not deleted and may not have been replaced in the articles with the Commons image. It's just been two weeks since the articles have been turned in, so we're still catching up. Thanks for pointing this out though; this will be a distinction that is made more clearly in future assignments and guides. HstryQT (talk) 13:22, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Appropriate images that are clearly freely licenced can be tagged with the template {{move to commons}} (keep the curly brackets) when they will be reviewed before being moved. ww2censor (talk) 15:46, 14 December 2010 (UTC)