Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Mythology task force

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Translation request

The Japanese article ja:日本神話 has the following sections in あらすじ:

世界の始まり

Main article: ja:天地開闢 (日本神話)

イザナギとイザナミ

Main articles: ja:国産み and ja:神産み

アマテラスとスサノオ

Main articles: ja:アマテラスとスサノオの誓約 and ja:天岩戸

出雲神話

Main articles: ja:ヤマタノオロチ, ja:因幡の白兎, ja:大国主の神話, and ja:大国主の国づくり

葦原中津国平定

Main articles: ja:葦原中津国平定 and ja:天孫降臨

山幸彦と海幸彦

Main articles: ja:山幸彦と海幸彦 and ja:ウガヤフキアエズ

神武天皇

Main articles: ja:神武東征 and ja:タギシミミの反逆

欠史八代

Main article: ja:欠史八代

Could someone help translating these articles? In particular, ja:天地開闢 (日本神話), ja:国産み, ja:神産み and ja:神代七世 have Spanish translations. If someone understands Spanish, please help. Thank you. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 00:44, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Jmyth navbox and infobox

I am copying my comments from Template talk:Jmyth navbox long. They apply equally to Template:Jmyth navbox tall and Template:Jmyth infobox.

It seems inappropriate to me to mix gods from the Shinto pantheon (Amaterasu, Susanoo, etc.) with characters from folk stories (Momotarō, Urashima Tarō; Tengu, Kappa, etc.). Yes, they all relate to Japanese "myths" in some sense of the word, but myths of very different sorts. This would be like having a European myth navbox listing Jesus, Moses, Santa Claus, and the boy who put his finger in the dike.

The category "sacred and mythical locations" is also odd. I've visited Mount Hiei and Mount Fuji, but if I had visited Yomi I would not be able to tell you about it. The first two are actual places visited by Buddhist pilgrims (among others); the latter is the mythical realm of the dead in Shinto.

Are members of this task force interested to create separate templates for religious and folkloric topics, ideally linked back to one another with a cross-reference? I'm not particularly expert in this area, but know just enough to take mild offense at the current templates. Cnilep (talk) 15:07, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree that all these non-Shinto creatures and other topics unrelated to the mythology seem out of place. The Japanese template only includes Kojiki and Nihon Shoki and the tales on the creation myth and the birth of the deities who rule the natural world. I listed these topics in my translation request above. Yokai and mukashi-banashi characters are topics of Japanese folklore, and I think more templates are needed. I'm not a member of this task force at the moment, but that's my opinion. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 17:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I've mocked up a version of the 'long' box with only Shinto, Buddhism, and the 七福神 at User:Cnilep/Japanese mythology. Cnilep (talk) 22:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Can we find another image with a similar aspect ration for the right side fo the box to balance it? Right now, it looks very strange due to the offset created by the left image. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I added one; changes are welcome, or we could remove both. Cnilep (talk) 17:10, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Looks good. I added alt text to each so people can hover over the image and see what it is. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

The corresponding folklore box is now at User:Cnilep/Japanese folklore. Cnilep (talk) 17:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Looks good, too. I add alt text here, too. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I have merged my content to {{Jmyth navbox long}}, moved my folklore template to Template name space, and removed folklore content from {{Jmyth navbox tall}}. I also looked through the pages that included the navboxes, and changed about 70 from Jmyth navbox long to {{Japanese folklore long}}. I did not edit Jmyth infobox. Cnilep (talk) 15:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Please take a look at my {{Jmyth navbox long}} here. I added the content of the Japanese template ja:Template:日本神話 to include the creation myth, mythology from Izumo and Hyuga, and the earliest emperors.

I don't think Buddhism and the Seven Lucky Gods belong here because their origin is not related to the mythology. Ryugu-jo most often appears in the folklore, so it should be moved to the folklore template. Also, Kami is not specific enough and may be omitted. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 06:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "related to the mythology." Are you suggesting that there is a single mythic tradition in Japan? You may also want check out the template {{Shinto}}, by the way.

Certainly the 七福神 (mostly) have origins outside of Japan, but their treatment as a group is a strictly Japanese tradition, isn't it? (As I mentioned above, I'm not expert in this area.) Similarly, Buddhism has its origins in South Asia, but its practice in Japan is in some ways regionally specific. I guess it depends on what one means by "Japanese mythology".

I think that it might be good to remove the whole "Mythical locations" heading from the current template. As Shinkansen Fan says, Ryūgū-jō is mostly referred to in secular folklore (e.g. Urashima Tarō). Tamagahara and Yomi are important concepts in Shinto, but do they need a link outside that to Shinto?

Specifically regarding Shinkasen Fan's template: I don't understand the organization. This is probably because I have limited knowledge of Shinto. Importantly, though, there is no explanation of this organization on any of the pages linked. This makes the template not very helpful to Wikipedia users who are not already expert in the subject. Also, navboxes are not supposed to contain red links, and both Izumo and Hyūga link to DAB pages and so need to be changed. Cnilep (talk) 14:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The Japanese mythology is a series of tales about the creation of the deities and the land in time immemorial, as told in Kojiki, Nihon Shoki, and Fudoki of some provinces such as Izumo. These texts chronicle the events that took place in Takamagahara, Izumo, and Hyuga. The creation process began with the birth of the five asexual deities, Kotoamatsukami in Takamagahara followed by the twelve deities (seven generations), "Kami(no)yonanayo" (the seven generations of the divine age). Izanagi and Izanami are the seventh generation. Izanami gave birth to the land of Japan (Kuniumi) and the gods and goddesses of natural forces (Kamiumi). The Buddhist deities and the Seven Lucky Gods don't appear in the mythology because they are not ancestors or descendants of Izanagi and Izanami. Perhaps we can move the Buddhist deities to a Buddhism template. I think Shichifukujin falls into the category of folk beliefs rather than the mythology.

Both Takamagahara and Yomi are important in the mythlogy, so they should stay. I included Izumo and Hyuga as mythical locations. Susanoo descended to Izumo and Ninigi descended to Hyuga. Emperor Jimmu started his expedition to the east (Yamato) from Hyuga. There are a few other tales related to these places. The ancient provincial powers like Izumo, Hayato, and Kumaso may have their own tales, but I don't know much about them.

I made some changes to my template. As for red links, I will try translating equivalent articles and related pictures. Shinkansen Fan (talk) 13:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

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Proposed expansion of scope

I have proposed possibly expanding the scope of this project, and a few others. For the purposes of centralized discussion, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion#Possible reorganization of some related projects. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 15:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Jmyth navbox again

I have just noticed that during January and February of this year User:Shinkansen Fan made substantial changes to Template:Jmyth navbox long, citing the discussion above. I disagree with the substance of those edits, which removed Buddhist and folk myths and left only Shinto elements. I do not think that there was consensus for such changes in the September 2010 discussion. I have therefore rolled back the changes. I expect that Shinkansen Fan may want to return to his version of the template, so I am re-opening discussion here, so as to get the greatest possible participation among interested editors. Cnilep (talk) 01:49, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

To me as a non-expert, Shinkansen Fan's version (without Buddhist deities etc) looks more like what I would associate with Japanese mythology than Cnilep's version. On the other hand, the Japanese mythology article mentions three parts: "... Shinto and Buddhist traditions as well as agriculture-based folk religion." (in detail the article seems to discuss only Shinto though as far as I can see). Sources also seem to include Buddhist myths: [1], [2], [3], [4]. How about having three templates: Shinto, Buddhist and folk myths? bamse (talk) 11:15, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

As far as I understand the three mythologies (Shinto, Buddhist, folk) are sufficiently distinct to have three templates (my preference). bamse (talk) 14:11, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

There is a common joke in Japan that says we are born Buddhists, we live as Shintoists, and we die Buddhists. Shinto is the major indigenous religion here and its mythology has effects on our lives, but so does Buddhism as well as some foreign myths. To say that Shinto belief is the totality of Japanese mythology is to misstate something fundamental. See, for example, On Understanding Japanese Religion (isbn:0691102295), Handbook of Japanese Mythology (isbn:1576074676), or 神仏習合 (isbn:4004304539), all of which describe the place of Shinto and Buddhism in Japanese life and tradition, as well as the relationships between the traditions.

I would not have any strong objection to creating separate Shinto and Buddhist templates (aside from a general preference for elegance and efficiency), but I don't think that either alone can be called "Japanese mythology". Cnilep (talk) 01:06, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, fully agree, as I wrote above all three should be mentioned under a heading "Japanese mythology". My association with Shinto only was more a spontaneous first reaction (probably influenced by what I've been reading lately). bamse (talk) 10:37, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

According to the following books, 日本神話 generally refers to the Kiki (記紀) mythology that is told in the Kojiki (based on the earlier Kyūji and Teiki), Nihon Shoki and some stories of Fudoki.

• 日本書紀 上 (日本の古典をよむ) Shogakukan ISBN-13: 978-4093621724
• 日本書紀 下 風土記 (日本の古典をよむ) Shogakukan ISBN-13: 978-4093621731
• もう一度学びたい古事記と日本書紀 Seitosha ISBN-13: 978-4791613878
• 日本神話―神々の壮麗なるドラマ (Truth In Fantasy) Shinkigensha ISBN-13: 978-4775302033
• 八百万の神々―日本の神霊たちのプロフィール (Truth In Fantasy) Shinkigensha ISBN-13: 978-4883172993
• 日本の神々の事典―神道祭祀と八百万の神々 (New sight mook―Books esoterica) Gakken ISBN-13: 978-4056016291
• 史上最強カラー図解　古事記・日本書紀のすべてがわかる本 Natsumesha ISBN-13: 978-4816350115

Scholars seem to think that influences of Buddhism and folk beliefs result from various medieval reinterpretations of Kiki mythology. I think this change in the narratives occurred because Buddhism widely spread among the bushi and commoners in medieval times, long after it was officially introduced to Japan in Emperor Kinmei's era. See ja:中世日本紀 for introduction to the mythology told in medieval literature, such as the Taiheiki.

I prefer to note this distinction between the Kiki original and the medieval version and limit the scope of this navbox to the Kiki. My navbox is just a translation of the Japanese one, which is a very simple navbox of the Kiki mythology. Many notable deities and people are lacking, so there is substantial growth potential. We could expand {{JapaneseBuddhism}} and {{Japanese folklore long}} too.--Shinkansen Fan (talk) 14:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Fujin may not be the best representative of this task force. It's a product of syncretism of folk beliefs and cultural transfer along the Silk Road. I think someone from the Kiki is better. Also, I'd like to move all the groupings to the left and Amaterasu to the right, on top of Susanoo. She is more powerful than him.--Shinkansen Fan (talk) 01:50, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Probably no one can deny that Kojiki and Nihon Shogi are central texts in Japanese mythology, no matter how one defines that term. What I disagree with is the suggestion that their narratives constitute its entirety. I suppose it comes down to a question of what these templates are meant to do: direct readers to the central "Kiki" narratives, or point to the broad outlines of the multiple mythological and religious traditions that exist in Japan. I will again assert that if the goal is the former, calling this "Japanese mythology" is misleading. Also, labeling syncretism as "a product of... cultural transfer" seems to assert an ideology of historical purity that I think many (or most) scholars would find controversial.

(And by the way, suggesting that Nihon Shinwa usually refers to Shinto myths is really begging the question. Although that word can be translated as "Japanese myths", it is literally "Japanese god stories".) Cnilep (talk) 05:42, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

All of the books above discuss the mythology in the Age of the Gods and legendary history of the Human Age (hitoyo) (Emperor Jinmu's genealogy) in detail and cite many sources. My edit is based on these books, specifically Tamio Tobe's "Truth in Fantasy" series which are cited by Japanese Wikipedia. Buddha appears in Volume 19 (Emperor Kinmei) of the Nihon Shoki, which says that whether or not Japan should accept Buddhism was a major controversy in his time. Thus, there was a need to reconcile differences between Shinto and Buddhism. Honji suijaku was one such attempt, I guess. Perhaps we need a section of medieval reinterpretations and regional variations somewhere.

Having said that, I don't have a strong opinion on the definition of Japanese mythology, but I think the Kiki alone can make a pretty big template even if we leave out the Seven Lucky Gods and the Buddhas. I don't associate Zen with any mythological tale though. I believe It's a very different subject. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 16:31, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it may well be worthwhile to have a template specifically dedicated to these narratives and the gods, locations, history etc. described within them. Cnilep (talk) 23:33, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

One last point: Shinkansen Fan do you mean to move Amaterasu to the right of Susanoo? That's fine. I'm not sure what you mean by "on top of", though. On my browser, with its current width, all of those links are on the same line. Cnilep (talk) 05:42, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I wanted to align these two vertically to show that she has kicked him out, looks down on earth and their relationship is unequal. However, that looks worse than I thought because there are too few items now and needless spaces are created in the Mythical locations group. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 16:31, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, you mean the pictures, not the internal links. I see where you're coming from in semiotic terms, but in visual terms either the pictures become too small or the white space overwhelms the links. If I recall correctly, originally the template had only one image of Amaterasu, but someone (I forget who) suggested that two pictures would lend aesthetic balance. Cnilep (talk) 23:27, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the current one is aesthetically better. I made two templates to merge my edit with the Mythical locations. Major Buddhist figures and Seven Lucky Gods from yours. Which one do you like?

Other changes include:

• omitted Zen
• omitted Inari and Kami because they are included in {{Shinto}}.
• moved Amano-Iwato, Yomi, Izumo, Ashihara no Nakatsukuni, and Hyūga to the Mythical locations
• moved Shinto to the bottom
• added Watatsumi, Konohanasakuya-hime, and Toyotama-hime

Let me fix the broken internal links within this template. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 06:54, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

The lower template seems more balanced and better looking to me, but the pictures are very small. If you increase them to 100px, the whole template is still smaller than the upper template, so I would recommend that change. Also, the upper template feels somehow intimidating; the lower one feels more approachable even with the same information. Cnilep (talk) 23:18, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I modified both templates. The upper template now has the 100px images on the right. The images of the lower template are 80px, and I think it looks better. If the size is 100px, the white space in the Seven Lucky Gods group becomes too big. We can resize the images again once we have enough number of internal links.--Shinkansen Fan (talk) 15:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Naming convention of kami

 Reopened I'd like to reopen the discussion on a standard naming convention of kami. There is none at the moment.Below is the previous discussion in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Japan.

---

I've noticed that there are many hyphenated names of kami in Japanese mythology articles.

• "Kuni-no-tokotachi-no-kami" for Kunitokotachi
• "Izanami-no-Mikoto" for Izanami
• "Ameno-uzume-no-Mikoto" for Ame no Uzume

I think this hyphenation necessitates redirects and makes it harder to read and write articles. I personally like "Kuninotokotachi" as one word, rather than "Kuni-no-tokotachi", and "Kuninotokotachi no kami/mikoto" with no hyphenation rather than "Kuni-no-tokotachi-no-kami/mikoto" or "Kuninotokotachi-no-kami/mikoto".

Perhaps we need a standard naming convention. Thoughts? --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 01:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I support a naming convention (in whatever way). However I am not familiar enough with the topic to say which convention would be preferable. All I can say so far is that Chamberlain's Kojiki [5] uses the hyphenation convention for both Romaji and translated names. However the book is from 1919, so we might well use a more modern convention. bamse (talk) 08:25, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The naming convention of the Encyclopedia of Shinto by Kokugakuin University looks similar to my preference.

Chamberlain translated Susanoo as "His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness," but this hyphenation may be excessive. W. G. Aston's Nihongi [6] (Tuttle Publishing) follows a similar pattern. In the Nihongi, the deities have many aliases, and we would have to add hypthens to all of them.

I think compound words like Kamiumi, Kuniumi, and Kamiyonanayo should be treated as single words. (Kami and umi, kuni and umi, and kamiyo and nanayo all rhyme.) Words like Ame-no-ukihashi (天浮橋) may not need hyphens either. (cf.Amanohashidate). Hyphenation is necessary for compound kango made in Japan (和製漢語) with the suffixes-性, 制, 型, 的, 法, 力, etc. Other than that, usage of hypthens should be minimal, in my opinion.--Shinkansen Fan (talk) 16:27, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

 Second opinion requestedDoes anyone else have an opinion on this? --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 05:57, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

In addition to hyphens, the discussion might address which portion of the gods' names should be used as page titles. Currently we have Izanami-no-Mikoto but Izanagi. In some cases longer names redirect to shorter ones (e.g. Susanoo-no-Mikoto > Susanoo), but in others shorter names redirect to longer ones (e.g. Tsukiyomi > Tsukiyomi-no-Mikoto). Cnilep (talk) 23:49, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Article titles says that an article title should be recognizable, natural, precise, concise, and consistent. I believe the shortest names without -no-kami/mikoto are the best. Many gods and goddesses have aliases and their kanji characters often vary from chronicle to chronicle. In order to avoid this hassle, Japanese Wikipedia often uses katakana for page titles. We can write longer names within each article. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 07:21, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Support hyphenation in compound names. This subject is not limited to kami but includes a number of historical figures as well. I refer you to the articles Saigō-no-Tsubone or Toku-hime. The hyphens separate distinct terms. To cram the seperate terms together would create some article titles of intimidating length, especially for readers not familiar with Japanese names. As for the kami and some of the older historical figures, I agree that some of the -no-kami/mikoto suffixes can be shed for the sake of similicity. If you look at European figures, the article title is focused on the name. Titles are only added to distinguish one (for example) Richard III from another, a problem we don't have here. Boneyard90 (talk) 18:14, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

 Inconclusive I'm fine with the hyphenation of Toku-hime, but there are three ways of naming hime in use: compound names, spacing, and hyphenation. As for names including "no" like Saigō-no-Tsubone, I prefer spaces, and there are some articles following this pattern: Soga no Kitashihime, Kakinomoto no Hitomaro, Minamoto no Yoritomo, etc. No standard naming convention exists now. Long compound names tend to be unpopular. I looked up long names in my books on the mythology and got the impression that we could cover main tales without facing that problem. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 18:47, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I second Shinkansen Fan's suggestion that the most common form of the name without no-mikoto/no-kami be used in page titles, with alternate versions (including honorifics where they are commonly used) included in the article's lead section. I have no strong preference for the use of hyphens versus spaces in names containing other nouns (no hime; no tsubone etc.), but agree that long compounds with neither (e.g. Empress Iwanohime) should be avoided as difficult to read and often overly-long. (But of course I have no objections to redirects.) Cnilep (talk) 03:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

That article is obviously the same as Princess Iwa(ja:磐之媛命). These should be merged and I think we can drop Empress from the title. She was never a monarch, unlike Empress Jitō. My sources refer to her as Iwanohime.

 Discussion ongoing...

• For a deity name, the most common one established in mythological studies without no-kami/mikoto should be used.
• Common alternatives and honorifics should be mentioned in the lead.

This is something related to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles).--Shinkansen Fan (talk) 13:28, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

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Requested move at Talk:The Buddha

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Wikiproject

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