Category talk:Arcadia, Peloponnese

Opposed speedy move request

• Category:Arcadia to Category:Arcadia (regional unit) – C2D per Arcadia (regional unit), Arcadia is ambiguous, see the recent RM, the base name should become a DAB with Category:Arcadia, California, Category:Arcadia (Odessa) and Category:Arcadia, Wisconsin. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:59, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Category:Buildings and structures in Arcadia to Category:Buildings and structures in Arcadia (regional unit)
  • Category:Geography of Arcadia to Category:Geography of Arcadia (regional unit)
  • Category:Populated places in Arcadia to Category:Populated places in Arcadia (regional unit)
  • Category:History of Arcadia to Category:History of Arcadia (regional unit)
  • Category:People from Arcadia to Category:People from Arcadia (regional unit)
  • Category:Sport in Arcadia to Category:Sport in Arcadia (regional unit)
    • Oppose speedy, it is quite well possible that this refers to Arcadia (region) rather than Arcadia (regional unit). Marcocapelle (talk) 22:33, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
      • @Marcocapelle: which one do you oppose to or is it all? In any case is there a different title you would choose? Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:37, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
        • The whole batch. Full discussion is needed whether to pick Category:Arcadia (regional unit) or Category:Arcadia (region) and the subcategories will follow the same pattern as the parent. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:24, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
          • Maybe something like Category:Arcadia, Peloponnese for all of the category tree. A CFD would probbaly be sensible to discuss this. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:39, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Keep as is. Arcadia (region) and Arcadia (regional unit) are basically the same place in Greece, and all the other Arcadias are named after it, directly or through Arcadia (utopia). The place in Greece is the primary topic. It would be especially absurd to mention the regional unit, which was created in 2011 only, in the names of Category:History of Arcadia, Category:Ancient Arcadia and Category:Medieval Arcadia. Place Clichy (talk) 15:18, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

    But Arcadia is a DAB and as noted in the RM it only gets around 10% of the total pageviews and its not clear all other uses derive from it. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:39, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

    If I had seen the RM I would have voted against it, because I think the rationale there is not correct. We cannot really consider page views as the main criterion for primary topic. Even then, it does not really help that the topic is weirdly split between Arcadia (regional unit) (renamed from Arcadia), Arcadia (region) (renamed from Arcadia (ancient region)) and Arcadia (utopia) (the fantasized version of the Ancient region). Put together, they have as much or more views as the British retail group, which as you put it yourself is an effect of recentism. This would be like having different articles for Bavaria (the region) and Bayern (the Land), which we do not have. I see that User:Cplakidas has started the process of refining the scope of the ancient vs. modern region, I am pinging him for input. It seems pretty straightforward that most of the places or other entries on the dab page take their name from the Greek region, many of them in reference to the utopian myth. On Scholar first page result, 6 out of 10 results are about the utopian myth (including 3 for The Countess of Pembroke's Arcadia), one for the Stoppard play, itself named after the utopian myth, one is a Jim Crace novel not listed on the dab page, also arguably named after the utopia, one about a storm in Arcadia, Oklahoma and one is a psychology publication with a certain Arcadia Gomez among co-authors. The utopian myth therefore pretty much seems to be the primary use of the term in the English language, at the same time being a reference to the Greek region. Place Clichy (talk) 19:06, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

    • Place Clichy is obviously right that the primary topic is the region, and that everything else derives from it. As regards the region vs the regional unit, I too am of the opinion that the distinction is rather pedantic, but it is not inaccurate: the modern prefecture/regional unit is the region of Arcadia plus Cynuria, so the historical/geographical region and the modern administrative unit do not align fully. However, since the region is part of the administrative unit, distinguishing between the two in the context of categories would unnecessarily complicate matters. Now, on the need to distinguish between Greek Arcadia and the other categories about places in the US and Ukraine, this is IMO ludicrous, and the number of entries and complexity of the category tree at Category:Arcadia as opposed to all the rest shows why. The former is a clear topic of some note, the others are almost at the point of being WP:SMALLCATs. Constantine ✍ 08:45, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

      The region isn't the primary topic and that has been determined at a RM discussion which had clear consensus to move. It was clearly shown by page views and other factors that the region(s) in Peloponnese isn't the primary topic (even taking into account recentism). Maybe the present titles aren't ideal so maybe a new RM should be held. I agree that there might not be much sense in making a distinction between the regional unit and region so would the Category:Arcadia, Peloponnese suggestion work? Otherwise we should just rename as proposed unless you start a new RM to put the regional unit back at the base name. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:29, 24 December 2020 (UTC)