Category talk:Irish Roman Catholics

Can it be nominated again

Can it be nominated again? Can we restrict the vote to Irish folk only ;-) Kfor 00:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Removing secterian cat

What is the rational for this cat, were persons notability has nothing to do with religion. See this discussion.[1]. --Domer48 09:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Guidance

Guidance is needed on this cat. The alternative is the cat being used regardless of weather the persons notability had anything to do with religion. --Domer48 08:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason why only the Irish Roman Catholics category should be a category that only includes people who are extremly notable for something related to religion, when being Irish Catholic is not just about religion. 75.32.36.79 22:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I concur. -RiverHockey 14:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

It isn't, see the guidance on Category:Roman Catholics - "Members of the Roman Catholic Church, either past or present for whom their membership was or is a defining characteristic or related to their notability. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

You’re quite right Catholics should not be the only one; please feel free to add this guidance to any and all religions, you’d be quite right to do so. You must still address though, the point I have raised above, that is, why should the category be placed on individuals, where their religion played no part in what makes them notable? Dose being a Catholic alone make you notable? Under the notability guidelines for inclusion the answer would be no. --Domer48 13:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Domer, why only religion? Why not all categories? Why do you want to single out religious categories?

Many people in Irish categories aren't notable for being Irish, so according to your logic, they should be removed from Irish categories as well, and only people who are notable for their country of origin should be placed in a category identifying it. People hold membership in a religion just like they have citizenship in a country. 75.32.36.79 15:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

In reply to your questions at the outset, let me first point out that we are discussing this particular category on this particular talk page. If you wish to broaden this discussion please feel free do so on the applicable talk pages.

Wikipedia is a uniform encyclopedia and one rule shall be applied to all as is necessary. Thus, the fate of this particular category affects the rest. You cannot just delete the Irish Roman Catholic section or impose different rules upon it and maintain other nationalities in a seperate manner.-RiverHockey 14:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

No different rules are being imposed, see the guidance on Category:Roman Catholics - "Members of the Roman Catholic Church, either past or present for whom their membership was or is a defining characteristic or related to their notability. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

As to the substance of your contribution to this discussion being “People hold membership in a religion just like they have citizenship in a country.” Again you wish to broaden the discussion without addressing the points I have raised. So in an attempt to have the question addressed, I will now rephrase it, thus. Why should the category be placed on individuals, where their membership of a religious group played no part in what makes them notable? Dose being a member of a religious group alone make you notable? Under the notability guidelines for inclusion the answer would be no.--Domer48 17:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Categories are used as reference, say if one wants to find notable people who happen to be Catholic, or African-American.-RiverHockey 14:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

No they aren't, see the guidance on Category:Roman Catholics - "Members of the Roman Catholic Church, either past or present for whom their membership was or is a defining characteristic or related to their notability. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

It should be placed on indviduals who are Irish Roman Catholics because this is an encyclopedia and an individual holds membership in a religion just as they hold citizenship in a country. Whether or not they are notable for being of that religion or nationality does not matter, because the people who are being put into the category are already notable enough to have a page about them and should be put in the correct categories.

Please do not dodge the point of "People hold membership in a religion just like they have citizenship in a country" again.

Are you sure that you are being unbiased in wanting to remove religion categories but not caring about removing nationality categories, which would be just as logical. Do you have any personal hatred or prejudice against religion? 75.32.36.79 23:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Let me start by reminding you to assume good faith, when dealing with other editors. Now yet again, how dose something which in no way contributed to a persons notability get to be included? I'm looking for policies here and not just opinion. And yet again, if you wish to broaded the discussion, go right ahead. Remove any and all cat's you like, but just back it up with policies. --Domer48 08:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Might I draw you attention to this link. We could base our discussion around this policy in that it would keep the discussion focused. --Domer48 08:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Many categories exists for alumnus of universities, very few of the people in those categories are notable for being alumnus of those schools, they are just notable alumni. Do you think those categories should have the same guidelines as you want this category to have? I am going to remove your guidance because nowhere else is it found on wikipedia, the requirements should not only apply to Irish Catholics. 75.32.36.79 23:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, finally the voice of reason.-RiverHockey 14:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The requirements apply to all Catholics, see the guidance on Category:Roman Catholics - "Members of the Roman Catholic Church, either past or present for whom their membership was or is a defining characteristic or related to their notability. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Try keep to this discussion, and respond to the link I provided. If you want to raise your concerns on those articles please feel free to do so. The guidence I have used is consistent with the policy for cat's. Now address that issue with me if you will, because that is the only discussion here at the minute. --Domer48 01:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Why is your prejudice only against religion? This is a point which you must respond to. You only want to attack religion, you don't care about any other categories. 75.32.36.79 22:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I checked that link and it said religious beliefs, not religion. This category is for people who are members of the Roman Catholic religion, it's not about an individual 's religious or philosophical beliefs. I am in good reason to remove your biased guidance because your reasoning behind it does not apply to this category. If this category was Irish Thomists, then you'd have an argument, but it's Irish Roman Catholics. 75.32.36.79 22:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I must again remind you to again assume good faith and remain civil. You are no longer addressing this issue, and your line now is to engauge in personal attacks. If you persist I will report to, so I'm asking you to now please stop. --Domer48 08:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

He is addressing the issue at hand, that the category rulings are inconsistent, it can either be applied to all or none, no exceptions for Irish Catholics. Perhaps the guidelines need mending.-RiverHockey 14:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

There are no exceptions for Irish Catholics, see the guidance on Category:Roman Catholics - "Members of the Roman Catholic Church, either past or present for whom their membership was or is a defining characteristic or related to their notability. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

There are no personal attacks here, this is a serious concern that you should address. 75.32.36.79 22:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is over till you change the policies. [2] dose this discussion sound familier. When you change the policy, change the article not before. --Domer48 22:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said earlier, the guidance applies to religious beliefs and not membership/heritage. If this category was Irish Thomists or Irish Theists, then the guidance would apply, but this is not a category based on individual beliefs, it's based on their membership in the Catholic Church. The discussion is over until you change the policy to also include membership in religion, but if you are to do that, then logically you should also make the policy include citizenship in a country. Please, remove the guidance you added to this category which does not apply. 75.32.36.79 22:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Read the discussion. Two Admin's agree with what I'm saying! --Domer48 23:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You have friends in high places, youve done this before, it seems if you dont like how the debate is unfolding you consult an administrator you know. Meanwhile you utilize multiple accounts [3] and you admitted to being like "the holy trinity" (referring to 3 accounts cleary depicted in the text) [4], yet you are never reprimanded. The user is claiming that it does not make sense for this notability rule to only apply to Irish Catholics. Otherwise, all categories based on nationality, religion, ethnic background, etc. would be void.-RiverHockey 14:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The rule doesn't only apply to Irish Catholics, see the guidance on Category:Roman Catholics - "Members of the Roman Catholic Church, either past or present for whom their membership was or is a defining characteristic or related to their notability. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Read this [5] and note this "Guidance

Members of the Roman Catholic Church, either past or present for whom their membership was or is a defining characteristic or related their notability. Please add a biography to a subcategory, rather than this main category, whenever possible." Like I said end of discussion. --Domer48 23:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

RiverHockey you have been warned already about your accusations [6] and you do not seem to have got the message judging by your last comment hear [7]. In addition you cast aspersions on administrators because they do not accept your bias. I suggest you stop now and read the policies! --Domer48 17:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

-I myself, have only added the category where it is notable!, but I think it wise for you to attack the problem at its source rather than just focusing on Irish Roman Catholics. The same should then apply to all religions, nationalities, ethnic groups, etc. Otherwise it appears biased. -RiverHockey 17:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Edit break

I am going to remove the guidance as no other Irish religious cagtegory has the guidance, making it biased to exist for only one group. Please, no one readd the guidance without also adding the same guidance to all Irish religious categories. 75.34.59.92 (talk) 04:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Restored the guidance. There is clear consensus for its inclusion. By all means, seek consensus to have the same guidance included in other religious cats. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 09:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

By all means, have the same guidance included in other religious cats. 75.34.59.92 be bold and do it, citing this cat if you like.As BaTsun suggests, seek consensus. --Domer48 (talk) 09:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The clear consensus is a discriminatory consensus. The reality is that the reason why it only applies to Catholics and no other group is because a group of anti-Catholic editors support the guidance here but no where else. All religions should be treated equally at wikipedia. The truth is there is no reason to single out even all religion as requiring a special guidance, no other categories have any guidance. The guidance must be removed to be fair. As it is right now, Irish Roman Catholics are being oppressed at wikipedia. Bastun, Domer, why don't we seek a consensus to get rid of the prejudiced guidance? 75.34.59.92 (talk) 15:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I am going to remove the guidance and it should stay removed. We have categories for year of birth, but a person will be added to these categories without their year of birth being related to their notability. No reason to treat categories differently. The fact that this is the only Irish religious category with the guidance is why it must stay removed though. You cannot make a requirement for one religion and none others. I should also point out that this guidance was originally being pushed by Domer48, who is clearly biased in this matter. He is someone that admires Irish Republicans, but has a prejudice against Catholics, so he wants the guidance to prevent his idols being identified by their religion, a religion he is opposed to. We can't let one editor's personal prejudice influence an encyclopedia. Domer48 has not sought this guidance for any other religion or category on wikipedia. Domer48 makes it clear on the Roman Catholics category talk page, that he just wants all Roman Catholic categories deleted. He also cites Irish Republicans opposition to secretarian division as reason for not having the category. We cannot edit wikipedia pages just in a way that Domer48 believes would make those the articles are about happy. We need to include facts, the aim should not be to make people happy. To give you an idea of Domer48's bias in his own words "The category should be eliminated entirely, if you want my personal opinion, and I would vote that way if you propose it for deletion."

The consensus is coming from a biased person and we should not include it on the Roman Catholics category or the Irish Roman Catholics category until consensus is reached for ALL CATEGORIES. Until consensus is reached for all categories, then it would be fair to include the guidance, but right now, it must be removed and stay remoeved.

There is no consensus yet, and it will be removed to be in line with all other categories on wikipedia. 75.34.59.92 (talk) 16:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Currently I'm seeing 3 editors who want it included, and one editor who doesn't. Plus an anon IP address. There is no consensus to remove it. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 16:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Bastun, please revert your previous edit. The consensus cannot be made here. The consensus must be made to apply for all categories. Having a special requirement for one category is discrimination. Please Bastun, revert your edit or address the issue why you don't think you need an all category consesus. 75.34.59.92 (talk) 16:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The consensus for this category is that the guidance should remain. I think its a bloody silly category without the guidance - it could be added to over 80% of all articles on Irish people without it, simply because of them being baptised and regardless of their own actual beliefs. And yes, I also agree the guidance should apply to all such religious/belief system categories, Irish and elsewhere. But, sorry, not strongly enough to go around every such category seeking its inclusion, so I'll stick to keeping it in cats I've stumbled across in my own area of interest, namely Ireland. Regards, Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 16:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

75.34.59.92 you seem to be unaware of the guidelines and policies. To make absolutely clear you are aware of them here are the applicable Guidelines / Policies, Category:Roman Catholics Guidelines and criteria policies for religious Cat’s. Also familiarise yourself with the following discussions Notability, Suppression_of_Irish_History , this discussion and this Having now being made aware of all the pertinent Guidelines, Policies and Discussions, should you continue to remove the guidlines on this category your actions will be seen as disruptive. If you again make an accusation against me, without making a formal complaint, I will view it as a personal attack, and deal with it accordingly. This discussion is now closed, as until policies change I have nothing further to add, other than to suggest it seems Familiar. Like Bastun, I agree the guidance should apply to all religious/belief system categories, Irish and elsewhere, and again not strongly enough to go around every such category seeking its inclusion, so I'll stick to keeping it in cats I've stumbled across in my own area of interest, namely Ireland. --Domer48 (talk) 17:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Ireland, Domer48? Why not add the guidance to the Irish Atheist category? virtually all of the people in that category would not qualify under the guidance, only two would be possible for inclusion. Prove it that it's not just out of an anti-Catholic attitude and add the guidance to the Irish atheist category. 75.34.59.92 (talk) 03:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Never have I seen such a gatekept category as this one. Finnish Lutherans, American Christians, Irish atheists etc. aren't subjected to such criteria. In theory they should be but aren't. I smell ideology. 2001:BB6:7AE8:2C58:CBC:FCD7:4A56:BDE1 (talk) 07:03, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

You seem to be complaining that this category adheres to policy. Any editor, including you, can remove any inappropriate religious and sexual orientation categories from any article, and, per WP:CAT/R and WP:BLPCAT, you should do so. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:11, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Categorization

If an individual has publicly identified oneself as a Roman Catholic (or any religion, etc.) then they are eligible to be represented under that category per Wikipedia's own guidelines.[8] If you wish to change the conditions for Category Irish Roman Catholics then you must do so with every other religion as well. Thanks. -RiverHockey (talk) 03:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

No. That's one of two criteria. The second is "The subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources."[9] Therefore the category is perfectly appropriate for clerics, missionaries, saints, martyrs, politicians (where there faith was central to their political life, e.g., Daniel O'Connell), and similar. It is not appropriate for singers, actors, sportspeople, celebrities, politicians (where their faith is not especially relevant to their politics), etc. That is WP policy. It should indeed be applied to other religious categories, too (and indeed to atheist/agnostic categories) - but I don't have them on my watchlist. I do have this one. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 08:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

In that case, why arent the mods so vigilant in removing all the other Irish religious categories? I still disagree with the categorization, one either is or isn't a Roman Catholic. With that said you should change the heading to Category Irish Roman Catholics notable for being Roman Catholic....... -RiverHockey (talk) 06:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Any editor, including you, can remove inappropriate categories from the other Irish religious categories. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 10:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)