Category talk:Irish bishops

Reorganisation necessary

This cat and its subcats are a mess. Category:Bishops of Down or Connor or of Dromore does not include Category:Bishops of Down and Connor, whose name does not make clear that it refers to a defunct Anglican diocese, as distinct from Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Down and Connor (maybe also the case for others in Category:Anglican bishops by diocese in Ireland?). Then there is the fact that it is in both Category:Bishops by nationality and Category:Bishops by country, whereas there are people of Irish nationality/heritage who have been bishops elsewhere: in Great Britain, the diaspora, the Empire, as missionaries, or in the Roman curia. Finally, the use of "Anglican" rather than "Church of Ireland" seems designed to gloss over the fact that the Church of IReland regards the pre-Reformation bishops as part of its heritage; the earlier one are in effect ceded to the Roman Catholic categories.

I suggest a tripartite realignment PreReformation / Church of Ireland / Roman Catholic, thus:

• Category:Bishops in Ireland (subcat of Category:Bishops by country, renamed from Category:Irish bishops; the orig should have a {{Category disambiguation}} and the rename a {{Category diffuse}})
  • Category:Pre-Reformation bishops in Ireland
    • Category:Pre-diocesan bishops in Ireland (pre-Synod of Ráth Breasail monastic bishops; Béoáed, Coman mac Faelchon, etc
      • potentially subcats by monastery for the main monasteries; and where it was a precursor to a diocese it could be a subcat of the relevant Pre-Reformation diocese cat too.
  • Category:Church of Ireland bishops
    • Category:Pre-Reformation bishops in Ireland (as above)
    • Category:Post-Reformation Church of Ireland bishops (rename of Category:Anglican bishops in Ireland)
  • Category:Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland
    • Category:Pre-Reformation bishops in Ireland (as above)
    • Category:Post-Reformation Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland
• Category:Bishops from Ireland (under Category:Bishops by nationality; for Donatus of Zadar, Daniel Mannix, Charles Inglis (bishop), etc.
  • ...the amount of overlap between the two categories is tediously large, so in the first instance maybe Category:Bishops in Ireland could be a subcat of Bishops from Ireland, even though it would include a few non-Irish people like Brutus Babington and John Bustamente;
    • ...maybe a subcat Category:Non-Irish bishops in Ireland might tag those.

The above would have subcats by diocese, which would also need to be split unless a name relates only to one of the three divisions. Currently it seems most are split two ways, so e.g. Category:Bishops of Dromore puts Richard Payl in Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Dromore rather than Category:Anglican bishops of Dromore, which loses the important fact that he is in the Church of Ireland succession. The names of the "or" categories are also weird: why the second of in Category:Bishops of X or Y or of Z ? jnestorius^(talk) 10:59, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Possible objection Some RC editors might view all pre-reformation bishops as RC bishops. To exclude them from an RC category might imply that they were not RC. To address the "weird" categories query: it's necessary because dioceses were split, merged, split again, merged again. It containes all possible combinations of the dioceses of either denomination. As such, it is a useful construct. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:32, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

The proposed structure includes Category:Pre-Reformation bishops in Ireland as a subcat of Category:Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland, so I don't think the objection is valid. As regards weirdness, Category:Bishops of Down or Connor or Dromore strikes me as slightly less weird than Category:Bishops of Down or Connor or of Dromore, and I still don't see why it doesn't include Category:Bishops of Down and Connor. Just an oversight? jnestorius^(talk) 20:02, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, just an oversight. I've now added it to the category. And yes, your proposed name is an improvement. Would support a re-name. But I still think that both denominations will lay claim to the "ownership" of the pre-reformation bishops so I'd like to get more responses before coming down one way or the other on your main proposal. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:04, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that both will claim ownership, which is why I've proposed adding Category:Pre-Reformation bishops in Ireland as a subcat to both. jnestorius^(talk) 11:41, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Ideally that ought to work. But this is a topic that attracts extremists from both persuasions. For this reason, it is unlikely to appease either camp. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:35, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Comment. Richard Payl never was an Anglican bishop, he died before the Reformation. There are some (arch)bishops who changed their allegiance back and forth during the Reformation (e.g. Christopher Bodkin), so if the categories were rearranged, they will need to be placed in both post-Reformation categories. I do agree the current categories are confusing. Scrivener-uki (talk) 20:22, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Richard Payl was never an Anglican-rite bishop, but the Church of Ireland regards itself as having existed since St Patrick, rather than being invented by Henry VIII. Category:Archbishops of Canterbury includes pre and post Reformation bishops. As I said, the name "Church of Ireland" is a better label than "Anglican" if we want to allow the view that pre-Reformation bishops were part of the Church of Ireland. Regarding the waverers: Christopher Bodkin is already in two categories, though if the categories are rearranged, then he may be moved to two differently-named ones. jnestorius^(talk) 21:24, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

• Partial support: I think your "tripartite" system is excellent. I would be in favour of implementing that right away. Also, the tidying of weird cats seems uncontroversial. My doubts would be (1) whether there is a need for two main cats and (2) about the naming of the main cat(s). Category:Bishops by nationality is the more populated category by far, and virtually all its sub-cats are named "—ish bishops" or its equivalent (—an, —ese etc.). Category:Bishops by country is newer, only has 18 subcats in total (several of them, including "Irish bishops", also being in "Bishops by nationality") and in some cases is very poorly organised: Category:Bishops in the United Kingdom being a particularly strange example. Perhaps there needs to be a wider discussion of that category in another forum with a view to establishing exactly what it's meant to be and whether it's going to be used or whether it should be deleted. In the meantime, I would be inclined to leave "Category:Irish bishops" as is, as a sub-cat of "Bishops by nationality" and, for the moment at least, in "Bishops by country". Perhaps a "Category:People from Ireland who were bishops outside Ireland" (no idea how you would name that) could be created as a sub-cat of "Irish bishops"; maybe also a "Category:Non-Irish bishops in Ireland". Scolaire (talk) 08:09, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

• Reject. Pre-reformation is just a weasel term to avoid using the word, 'Roman Catholic.' If it's prior to the reformation, they are Catholic bishops. Do it this way: Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland. CoI didn't exist prior to Henry VIII. This is historical fact. Benkenobi18 (talk) 06:53, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
  • And your source for all that is...? Scolaire (talk) 07:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)