Category talk:Parishes of the Channel Islands
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Wikiwayman in topic Opposed speedy move request
 | This category was nominated for deletion on 28 December 2008. The result of the discussion was no consensus to rename. |
Opposed speedy move request
edit- Category:Parishes of the Channel Islands to Category:Civil parishes of the Channel Islands – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:02, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Venezuela to Category:Civil parishes of Venezuela – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:01, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Ecuador to Category:Civil parishes of Ecuador – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Mexico to Category:Civil parishes of Mexico – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Andorra to Category:Civil parishes of Andorra – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:58, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Dominica to Category:Civil parishes of Dominica – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Bermuda to Category:Civil parishes of Bermuda – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:53, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Spain to Category:Civil parishes of Spain – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Prince Edward Island to Category:Civil parishes of Prince Edward Island – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:50, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of New Brunswick to Category:Civil parishes of New Brunswick – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:49, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Australia to Category:Civil parishes of Australia – C2B: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:48, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Antigua and Barbuda to Category:Civil parishes of Antigua and Barbuda – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Denmark to Category:Civil parishes of Denmark – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:45, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Category:Parishes of Latvia to Category:Civil parishes of Latvia – C2C: To disambiguate from church or ecclesiastical parishes. For consistency with the parent Civil parishes tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Laurel Lodged: I was not expecting this set of nominations. Are there church parishes in all of these countries/provinces? if not, renaming seems unnecessary. E.g. lv:Pagasts relates an entirely secular history for parishes in Latvia. – Fayenatic London 14:12, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- I see you have left Category:Parishes of Jersey which like Guernsey has a lead article Parishes of Jersey; it says they are both civil and religious. Best to leave Category:Parishes of the Channel Islands, then? – Fayenatic London 16:50, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Fayenatic london: I had assumed that the recent category redirect work provided a mandate for these nominations. That's why I went the speedy route instead of WP:CRD..Had the proposals gone ahead, then the original title would have become a category redirect for churches in those places (and ecclesiastical parishes if they exist). Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:45, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Laurel Lodged: But if there never were ecclesiastical parishes in a country, then it would be unnecessary to disambiguate "parishes" by using a longer name, and incorrect to set up a disambiguation link at "parishes" to "churches". I suggest two conditions precedent for the above renamings: (i) that the place also has church parishes, and (ii) that the church and civil parishes have diverged. Otherwise, just "parishes" is best. – Fayenatic London 16:22, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Fayenatic london: "if there never were ecclesiastical parishes in a country..." Don't be silly. Of course there were ecclesiastical parishes in a country. How else could a civil parish exist had it not devolved from the ecclesiastical parish? They still exist. There just might not be articles about them. I disagree with your two conditions. A better condition would be "How likely is it that somebody clicking on 'Parishes of Andorra' would expect to find ecclesiastical parishes?". I suspect that the answer is "Quite likely" and therefor a longer name is (i) beneficial and (ii) does no harm. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:48, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Fayenatic london: the Scottish category may be speedily renamed per WP:C2D, per Civil parishes in Scotland. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:35, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- Certainly let's process Category:Parishes of Scotland to Category:Civil parishes of Scotland, all the more as the article says "While they originally corresponded to the parishes of the Church of Scotland, the number and boundaries of parishes soon diverged." This will also bring it into line with England and NI. But as for others, if civil & church parishes have not diverged, then the categories should not be renamed. E.g. in Andorra, Catholic Church in Andorra has the same 7 parishes as the civil parishes of Andorra, including the new one founded in 1978 – but perhaps that's not surprising as Andorra has Co-Princes as its head of state, jointly the French President and a Spanish bishop, so civil and ecclesiastical government may be remaining in step there much more than elsewhere. – Fayenatic London 18:38, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- Surely this is a wholly cynical mass nomination via the speedy process, when Laurel Lodged knows full well there was a lengthy recent CfD discussion which resulted in no consensus. Do we seriously just go ahead anyway and make the moves, despite the outcome (or lack of outcome) of a full CfD discussion? Sionk (talk) 22:17, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- Blanket moving of articles without considering the contents is going to lead to problems, such as in the case of New Kilpatrick where the ecclesiastical parish and civil parishes once diverged, but the civil parish no longer exists. It is wrong to categorise this as a "Civil parish of Scotland" when only the ecclesiastical parish remains. Wikiwayman (talk) 13:24, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- Many precedents say it was not wrong, because categories include members that are "former X" as well as "current X". But this disagreement was easily resolved by starting Category:Former civil parishes of Scotland. – Fayenatic London 07:39, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for doing that, it seems like that alternative category is good solution for this particular case. Wikiwayman (talk) 15:03, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
- Many precedents say it was not wrong, because categories include members that are "former X" as well as "current X". But this disagreement was easily resolved by starting Category:Former civil parishes of Scotland. – Fayenatic London 07:39, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
- Blanket moving of articles without considering the contents is going to lead to problems, such as in the case of New Kilpatrick where the ecclesiastical parish and civil parishes once diverged, but the civil parish no longer exists. It is wrong to categorise this as a "Civil parish of Scotland" when only the ecclesiastical parish remains. Wikiwayman (talk) 13:24, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- Surely this is a wholly cynical mass nomination via the speedy process, when Laurel Lodged knows full well there was a lengthy recent CfD discussion which resulted in no consensus. Do we seriously just go ahead anyway and make the moves, despite the outcome (or lack of outcome) of a full CfD discussion? Sionk (talk) 22:17, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- Certainly let's process Category:Parishes of Scotland to Category:Civil parishes of Scotland, all the more as the article says "While they originally corresponded to the parishes of the Church of Scotland, the number and boundaries of parishes soon diverged." This will also bring it into line with England and NI. But as for others, if civil & church parishes have not diverged, then the categories should not be renamed. E.g. in Andorra, Catholic Church in Andorra has the same 7 parishes as the civil parishes of Andorra, including the new one founded in 1978 – but perhaps that's not surprising as Andorra has Co-Princes as its head of state, jointly the French President and a Spanish bishop, so civil and ecclesiastical government may be remaining in step there much more than elsewhere. – Fayenatic London 18:38, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Fayenatic london: the Scottish category may be speedily renamed per WP:C2D, per Civil parishes in Scotland. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:35, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Fayenatic london: "if there never were ecclesiastical parishes in a country..." Don't be silly. Of course there were ecclesiastical parishes in a country. How else could a civil parish exist had it not devolved from the ecclesiastical parish? They still exist. There just might not be articles about them. I disagree with your two conditions. A better condition would be "How likely is it that somebody clicking on 'Parishes of Andorra' would expect to find ecclesiastical parishes?". I suspect that the answer is "Quite likely" and therefor a longer name is (i) beneficial and (ii) does no harm. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:48, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Laurel Lodged: But if there never were ecclesiastical parishes in a country, then it would be unnecessary to disambiguate "parishes" by using a longer name, and incorrect to set up a disambiguation link at "parishes" to "churches". I suggest two conditions precedent for the above renamings: (i) that the place also has church parishes, and (ii) that the church and civil parishes have diverged. Otherwise, just "parishes" is best. – Fayenatic London 16:22, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Fayenatic london: I had assumed that the recent category redirect work provided a mandate for these nominations. That's why I went the speedy route instead of WP:CRD..Had the proposals gone ahead, then the original title would have become a category redirect for churches in those places (and ecclesiastical parishes if they exist). Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:45, 19 November 2022 (UTC)