Category talk:Rivers of County Dublin

Next steps

Hi all! This is a fantastic demonstration of crowd-sourcing, etc., with some great knowledge shared. I wonder if more than a few people knew all that individually. But, and in the most positive way - it's in the wrong place - this is the Talk page of a category, and categories are just collection points - there really should be almost no text on the front page, and little here either. As a member of the Ireland project, I have volunteered to make an article or articles of this, and place them properly, and will do this over the next two weeks. Any ideas or offers of help very welcome. Thanks! SeoR (talk) 11:04, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Five weeks have passed, with business trips and family haing delayed my work here. So far, only one past contributor has been reached. But I have done some source-checking, and have devised the format of the article. I am currently awaiting a principal reference, an item related to the leaflet scanned below - but more comprehensive. I aim to create the new article by the weekend of 12 June. SeoR (talk) 08:57, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, finally time. I worked on the article up to late July, and then realised that I would need at least some specific referencing - the topic includes too many small points. This has now arrived, and I have updated the sandbox ([1]) draft, and will carry on.

Next steps: set up List page, move in the draft material, cross-check against below, move some of below to new Talk page, clear this page except for a brief note of what has been done. And then maybe edit the face of this page also.

A more discursive page on the topic may be useful but at least this will conclude the exercise suggested and agreed with the global project, and in line with the offered Featured List model. SeoR (talk) 22:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Names / Listing requested

Have heard "40+", 46, "50 or so" - can someone list them? Muchos gracias... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.123.122.161 (talk) 12:38, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks more like 100!

I remember a leaflet from Dublin Public Libraries or one of the local history societies, in either Howth or Raheny, I think. I will try to find this. Back in that period in the late 90s when "community involvement" was the thing. 213.221.4.117 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:17, 11 March 2009 (UTC).

I think I have that somewhere - a folding leaflet picked up at Raheny Library way back when. Armed with that, as I commented some days ago, somehow without showing on this page, I can have a stab, or ask someone who knows more - but I also think this raises a question about the need for a proper article gathering in material on the topic (this page already begins to do so, beyond what I understand a Category page should do). One big question will be how to handle tributaries, especially with regard to the Dodder (which in turn has 6 or 7 major, and various minor, inflows), and also to originating streams. Twilson r (talk) 22:55, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Well indeed, I finally found that old leaflet today, and remembered I had intended to write something here. But I see matters have moved on, at least down as far as the Liffey. I will compare and see what I can add. I am especially glad to see the detailed working out of Howth, and other focal areas. This will also be a fine recognition of Dublin's many "lost waters." Strange how popular it was back in the 50s to 70s to cover off streams, mostly due to hysterical "safety concerns" - about people falling in, even though most Dublin streams are under a foot deep most of the time, and "infection." The Wad River, Ballyhoy or Naniken, Deansgrange, and more... mind you, they at least provided work in tougher times, and this part of Dublin watercourse history should also be mentioned in any proper article. Twilson r (talk) 08:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Key source

Someone has finally uploaded what sounds like the leaflet in question: . Fascinating! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.178.28.131 (talk) 19:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Listing

Not an easy one, but I will try. Others very welcome, especially for names of little tributaries... I will try for some form of hierarchy, and will go along the coast, starting at the northern edge. Indentation indicates a tributary, italics an "unnamed waterway" situation:

Most significant

First, for simplicity, perhaps the most significant:

• River Delvin
• Ballyboughal River (and major tributary the Corduff / Ballough R.)
• Broadmeadow River (with major tributary the Ward R.)
• Sluice River
• >Mayne River
• (multiple streams on Howth Head but none, even the famous Bloody Stream, or the strongest, the Balsaggart, are large)
• >Santry River
• River Naniken
• Wad River
• >>River Tolka (with tributaries within Dublin including the #Finglas River and the two Pinkeen Streams)
• River Liffey (with major tributaries in Dublin the >Camac, Bradoge, >Poddle, and the Dodder - which has, in turn, major tributaries such as the Swan R., Owenadoher R., R. Slang, Little Dargle R.)
• >Deansgrange or Kill O'the Grange Stream
• Shanganagh River (from Loughlinstown River and >Carrickmines Stream)

(Excluding the Liffey and the Dodder, and at first the Tolka, Dublin's Strategic Drainage Study looked at seven watercourses, marked with > above)

Full listing, north

In more detail, and with many unnamed, or at least names for which I am not aware of:

• River Delvin - Garristown, Naul, Dublin-Meath border
• Bracken River - through Balbriggan (aka Matt River)

• small stream W of Skerries
• Brook Stream at Skerries - powers the Skerries Mill, via mill pond, is fed by deeper streams
• small stream between Skerries and Rush - to sea under Skerries Road
• Rush Town Stream, just north of Rush, sometimes Brook Stream - to sea under Skerries Road to Rush's North Beach

• Bride's Stream - I think this small one has multiple branches, one of which is Bride's Stream - actually, Whitestown Stream was a made-up modern name, it is Bride's Stream with tributary Jone's Stream
• Baleally Stream - south and west of Lusk

• Ballyboughal (Ballyboghil) River
• … Corduff River or Ballough River, from north
• … … Richardstown River - Ballyboghil area

• stream running north from Donabate area (Beaverstown)
• Portrane Stream

• small stream southwest of Donabate
• Turvey River (or Stream) / River Pill, crossing old Newbridge Demesne
• Middle Stream, to sea at Kilcrea, south of Donabate (could be seen as a late tributary of the Pill?)

• Lissenhall Stream, passing through Lissenhall Little to the sea NE of the Broadmeadow and well west of the previous

• Broadmeadow River
• … Ward River, a major tributary, running through Swords
• … … St. Margaret's Stream

• Gaybrook Stream (or Gay Brook) - to the inner Broadmeadow Estuary, southern side, fr west of Malahide
• (back in the 50s, there were other streams around Malahide but not clear how many remain)

• Sluice River - to sea at Portmarnock Bridge, just before the village
• (forms from
• … Forrest Little Stream
• … Wad Stream
• … Kealys Stream)
• … small stream from west of Portmarnock
• … (also waters coming fr south, west and north [behind Portmarnock])

• Mayne River
• … small streams from south west of Baldoyle village (sometimes the Seagrange Park Stream and Brookstone Stream)
• … Cuckoo Stream - formed from six flows - provides major drainage to Dublin Airport
• … Turnapin Stream - the other main source branch

• Out on Howth Head, clockwise from Sutton Cross:
• small stream to western part of Claremont Strand, small stream to eastern part of Claremont Strand, small stream to vicinity of level crossing, towards Claremont Strand - these are piped now, I believe, and the third is one of the Howth Estate streams anyway, I think
• (added) Howth Estate streams, not sure how many, much messed-about and all somewhat interconnected now
• The Bloody Stream, which was moved 120m west by the Howth family
• Offington Stream, to western part of harbour
• Boggeen Stream or Gray's Brook, coming through the back of the village and to the eastern end of the harbour
• Coolcour Brook, running into Balscadden Bay
• possibly a small stream at Kilrock (I think this one was drained off)
• Whitewater Brook, to the sea north of the Baily
• small streams west of Baily
• small stream a little east of the Balsaggart
• Balsaggart Stream, to sea west of Drumleck Point
• (added) small streams in the Red Rock area
• (added) Carrickbrack Stream, multiple branches,
• Santa Sabina stream, two major branches

>> (Comment) Great work indeed, happy to be able to add a bit. I don't see so much of the Clair Sweeney book here, but notice it referenced elsewhere in Wikipedia. A wonderful work, and very accurate - the guy (yes, not Clare) was a city waters engineer. Watch out for the two Liffey tributaries though which he mentions only as conjectures (the book is very clear about this), based on current water presence and land contours, "The Gallows Stream" and "The Oxmanstown Stream." Now if only the other parts (the three bits of poor old Co. Dublin, would do similar works.

• Kilbarrack Stream / Donough Water
• secondary outfall from the Kilbarrack Stream / Donough Water

>> (Comment) I'm open to clarificatio here but I think there has been a mix-up here, due to Corpo interconnection of streams and drains. AFAIK the Donough Water is the Kilbarrack Stream, these two above being two outlets of the same - and the waters going all the way to Baldoyle are a diversion (or, I faintly remember, are actually a line for excess water to drain back from the Mayne are, and a railway drain. >> Yes, Kilbarrack Stream runs along the edge of Donaghmede, past former site of holy well, and straight downhill to coast, parallel with Kilbarrack Road, with secondary branch slightly closer to Howth. Baldoyle has Grange Stream, with tributary Seagrange Stream. >> A small issue of order here people: the main flow is the one nearer Howth, the stream, above-ground for its whole length until near 1970, runs parallel with Tonlegee Road (it was behind, ie north of, Tonlegee House), some hundred yards north of and parallel to Kilbarrack Road, and then angled away a little more, reaching the sea more or less where Bayside's first entrance is. The Corpo made a second mouth, nearer Kilbarrack Road, to allow the stream to take increased waters from the paving and development which came with the building of Donaghmede, and then Bayside.

• Blackbanks Stream - flowing from the limestone area at the "back" of Raheny (now under Edenmore Park and Grange-Woodbine), cross-linked to below
• Fox Stream - also flowing from the limestone area at the "back" of Raheny (now under Edenmore Park and Grange-Woodbine), cross-linked to above (and once the boundary marker of Dublin City - even appearing on old maps)
• Santry River - from Harristown via Santry, Coolock, to sea at Raheny (minor tributaries from Dublin Airport and in Santry), 20th century drainage link to take excess waters from Naniken
• River Naniken - from Beaumont area, through Raheny part of St. Anne's Park, mouth marks Clontarf / Raheny boundary, drainage link to Santry (and possibly to Wad River also)

• Wad River (the lower part aka Holly Brook Stream) - from Poppintree (multiple feeders, and more downstream, including surrounds of Coultry Park), man-made branch drains to Tolka but main flow, with multiple small inflows, through Beaumont, Donnycarney, along Collins Avenue, through Clontarf Golf Club, under Clontarf Garda Station, and into the sea

>> Great to see the Wad mentioned. Back in the 1960's you could still see it for most of its course, with just two main culverts, but now most is hidden.

• Tolka River, one of the three main rivers of Dublin, with the second largest flow; rises beyond Dunboyne
• … Western Pinkeen Stream
• … Eastern Pinkeen Stream
• … Finglaswood Stream
• … Finglas River
• … Claremont Stream
• … Wad River Diversion (off-take from Wad River, above, to reduce its flow)
• … stream now mapped as Cemetery Drain, on maps back to 1700s
• … Hampstead Stream
• … further streams including one (sometimes called "Grace Park Stream") in Marino, and also Marino Stream

Reference(s): In part from Rivers and Stream of Raheny / Rivers and Streams of Dublin, a six-page publication from the Raheny Online Working Group, Raheny Library, supplemented by maps and memory

Next would be the Liffey (and the Dodder), and the relatively fewer watercourses of South Dublin, which may have time for later. 89.107.213.5 (talk) 18:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

All fantastic work. Would the original guy/gal like to drop back to do the Southside, and then maybe the LIffey, Tolka and Dodder systems with all their tributaries, etc. :-) 92.36.51.61 (talk) 19:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Phoenix Park streams (Liffey tributaries)

Don't forget that there are at least three streams in the Phoenix park - all tributaries of the Liffey. Nearest the gate is the Magazine Stream, I think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.223.210.218 (talk) 13:20, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

In fact there were historically at 4-5 Phoenix Park streams, one through what is now the Peoples' Garden, one right at the far end, out towards Farmleigh, and 2-3 running down from the high ground where the hospital? now is.

Great stuff this though, looking forward to more.

There were, and are, two major streams, one at each end of De Park, one passing through the Zoo etc. and one in a glen upriver. Historically, as late as the early 20th century, there were four streams in the Magazine Fort area, three on the main slope and one to the east. I am not sure but these, or some of them, may have been merged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.120.142 (talk) 11:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Close but ye have confused slightly two things - the direction of 2 of the 3 "big streams" and two of the hills overlooking the Liffey (the Magazine Fort is on one, Thomas's Hill, while the hospital and home are on the other). And yes, in all there are 3 "major" watercourses, and 4-5 smaller ones.

At the "far end" is the Furry Glen (or Knockmaroon) Stream, which rises along White's Road, and enters the Liffey, after a sharp turn around the OS office, below Knockmaroon Hill, opposite the Glenaulin Stream.

Moving downriver, there are small streams (a) in lower Furry Glen, (b) beyond the school on Martin's Row, coming down from between St. Mary's Hospital and the Cheshire Home, and (c) three which converge along the final stretch of Chapelizod Road, downstream of the Islandbridge Memorial Gardens and the Creosote Stream on the opposite, southern, side. I suspect the last four of those are what the last writer above means by "four in the Magazine Fort area".

All above have mentally combined the two "central streams." They are partly parallel but are quite distinct, one running along north of the Main Road, one lying entirely south of it. But run from NW to SE.

The Magazine Stream comes in from Castleknock, passes Quarry Lake (I am not aware on any connection) and is joined by two smaller streams from the south near the US Ambassadorial Residence, then by one from the north, before running past the Magazine Fort, under Islandbridge Gate, and into the Liffey west of the S.C.R.

The Phoenix or Viceregal Stream rises in the Deerpark part of Castleknock, flows strangely around Ashtown Castle (old culverting?), and passes Ratra House and the Cabra Gate, forms several ponds, including in the Zoo, passes through The Hollow into the Peoples' Garden, is joined by another stream, leaves the Park and enters the Liffey a little downstream of Heuston Station, just downriver of the south-side main outflow of the Camac. It appears to have no connection to the strange, deep Machine Pond. (An outfall from this stream forms a stream within the Phoenix Park Railway Tunnel, eventually finding its way to the Liffey).

Maybe these should have their own article.

Does not look like much more to say on this. Can I prompt for next materials? 195.96.72.22 (talk) 07:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Central: Liffey (and Dodder) River Systems

• River Liffey (with tributaries before the city including the Rye, with its tributary the Lyreen (and in turn the Clonshanbo), and the Griffeen, and in Dublin city the Phoenix Park streams, and the Glenaulin and Creosote Streams, as mentioned above, then the Camac (with its own tributaries the Walkinstown, Robinhood, Fettercairn, Brownsbarn and Boherboy Streams), Bradoge, Poddle, Stein and the Dodder. Outside Dublin, early tributaries (in Wicklow) include the Ballydonnell Brook, the Shankill River, Brittas River (part of this is diverted to the Camac) and Woodend Brook, as well as the substantial King's River, followed downstream of Poulaphouca by (in Kildare) the Lemonstown Stream, Kilcullen Stream, Mill Stream and Pinkeen Stream, followed by the Morell River (with tributaries including A- the Painestown River, and its tributaries the Slane River and the Kill River, B- the Hartwell River, and C- the Rathmore Stream).

• River Liffey
• ... River Dodder (below)
• ... Stein (or Steyne) River, an old small river well-known since Viking times
• ... Poddle River, Dublin's second historic river
• ... Bradoge River
• ... Camac River, or Cammock
• ... ... Gallblack Stream
• ... ... ... Blackditch Stream
• ... ... ... Gallanstown Stream
• ... ... Walkinstown Stream
• ... ... Robinhood Stream
• ... ... Drimnagh Castle (Bluebell) Stream
• ... ... Fettercairn Stream
• ... ... Brownsbarn Stream
• ... ... Boherboy Stream
• ... Creosote Stream
• ... Glenaulin Stream
• ... Phoenix Park streams (to be filled in later, see above)
• ... Griffeen (River / Stream)
• ... Rye
• ... ... Lyreen, Maynooth
• ... ... ... Clonshanbo

> There are a few more, as far as i remember, something around Luttrellstown, for example (and tributary from Kellystown)

  * Dodder - with major tributaries such as the Swan R., Owenadoher R., R. Slang (Dundrum), Little Dargle R., and starting from streams like Mareen's Brook, the Cot Brook and the Slade Brook, and joined in and just below Glenasmole by the Piperstown and Ballinascorney Streams.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.77.102.112 (talk) 08:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

• River Dodder
• ... Swan River
• ... Owenadoher River, from Glendoo Mountain / Kilakee Mountain
• ... ... Whitechurch Stream
• ... Slang River (Dundrum River)
• ... Little Dargle River
• ... ... Castle Stream
• ... Jobstown (historically) or Tallaght (present-day) Stream
• ... Ballinascorney Stream
• ... Piperstown Stream
• from ... Slade Brook, Cot Brook, Mareen's Brook, Allison's Brook

Southside (full listing)

• Elm Park Stream, from Goatstown (Drummartin), through Roebuck and Belfield, and Elm Park Golf Club, reaches the sea 200m south and east of Merrion Gates
• Trimlestown Stream (St. Helen's Stream), from Mount Merrion (near St. Theresa's Church), under Stillorgan Road, through St. Helen's, reaches the sea in a culvert (over the Nutley Stream, under the DART, across the sand)

• Nutley Stream, rising east of Richview, south of Beech Hill (Clonskeagh), west of Airfield, reaches the sea through and south of Booterstown Marsh

• Priory Stream, reaches the sea at Blackrock Park
• Carysfort-Maretimo Stream (Blackrock Stream), all the way from Three Rock Mountain, via Stillorgan, reaches the sea at Maretimo

• Carrickbrennan or Monkstown Stream (Mickey Brien's Stream on old maps), flowing from near Kill o'the Grange, through Monkstown to Monkstown Church, where it is joined by a tributary, then travelling to the sea at Clearwater Cove, at Old Dunleary (see Dun Laoghaire Coastal Plan - http://www.dun-laoghaire.com/coastalplan/coastplan3.htm), north of Dun Laoghaire Harbour's West Pier

• Glasthule Stream (Glas-Tuathail – Thoohal’s or Toole’s streamlet), from Rochestown, via Glenageary, reaching the sea south of Dun Laoghaire, in Scotsman's Bay, long-ago fully-culverted

• Kill O'the Grange Stream or Deansgange Stream (sometimes called Clonkeen Stream, which may properly be the name of the tributary below), flowing from part of Deansgrange (near and under the cemetery), through Clonkeen, Cabinteely, Kilbogget Park and Ballybrack, reaching the sea at Killiney Strand, north of the outflow of the Shanganagh River
• ... Tributary running to the west of the main stream, joining near Pottery Road

> This and the above are linked? Am aware of streams either side of Clonkeen Road 50 years ago, merging east of it, near Pottery Road

• Shanganagh River

• ... Sandyford Stream - not sure, but think this also flows into the Shanganagh

• ... Racecourse Stream (sometimes Leopardstown Stream) - runs along, and visible from, the M50 (SE Motorway part), south of Leopardstown, flows NW to SE

• ... 1) Carrickmines Stream (sometimes "Carrickmines River" or "Carrickmines Branch", one of the three main flows, merges with the other major branches in Loughlinstown
• ... ... Ballyogan Stream - flows NE / E, goes in culvert through the Ballyogan Dump, has multiple tributaries
• ... ... ... Glenamuck Stream, west of Glenamuck Road, flowing SE to NW
• ... ... ... ... Golf Stream, joins Glenamuck Stream in townland of Carrickmines Great
• ... Foxrock Stream, from behind Torquay Road, running south, towards Cabinteely, where it is the Cabinteely Stream

• ... 2?) Loughlinstown River - multiple branches, including the second main flow, and to the south, the third main element, the 3) Bride's Glen flow, sometimes called the Bride's Glen River, taking in Rathmichael / Ballycorus

This is a complex one, looking forward to reading more. Even the County Council seems to get confused at times. To my knowledge, the Loughlinstown River is one of the major flows, but when all the parts combine, in Louglinstown, the result, which goes to the sea through Shanganagh, flowing out in south Killiney or Ballybrack, is the Shanganagh River.

• Crinken Stream, just north of Old Connaught and Bray, one tributary coming from south

• —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.77.102.112 (talk) 08:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

What are the seven drainage catchments of Dublin Airport?

Since this whole huge page started with a question, before it is "tidied" into a regular article, may I add the answer to the Q, from North and Clockwise:

• Branches of St. Margaret's Stream, a right-bank tributary of the Ward River (in turn flowing into the Broadmeadow Water)
• Forrest Little Stream
• and Wad Stream
• and Kealy's Stream - these three merging to form the Sluice River
• Cuckoo Stream
• and Turnapin Stream - these two merging to form the Mayne River
• Santry River

Source(s): various - but all of the above can be had from one article, "Surface Water Quality at Dublin Airport" by Victoria Carroll, Air / Water Quality Manager, Dublin Airport, in "Your Airport", Issue 2, 2006, published at Dublin Airport, Ireland. 109.188.21.131 (talk) 13:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)