Talk:The Zangwills

Notability Criteria - The Zangwills

MMyll (talk) 19:25, 5 September 2019 (UTC)Dear Kvng,

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to outline examples supporting how The Zangwills meet the notability criteria for music. I hope I am posting this in the correct location, apologies if not, please feel free to relocate my comments if necessary.

Obviously, it goes without saying that the band are on a significant upward trajectory so their achievements will continue to accumulate moving forward. As requested, I have chosen three external references below which I hope demonstrate their notability in different ways.

The music industry itself has been thrown into a spin in recent years with the advent and popularity of digital streaming services now dominating the market and a complete move away from the traditional model. This has led to an ever-evolving industry where there are now many more artists releasing independently than signed to labels, let alone major labels, I hope that notability criteria will also adapt to encompass a broader section of music than the narrow, commercial mainstream as there are many artists releasing music worldwide (including The Zangwills) who have not signed record deals or necessarily won awards. The band retain all their rights and remain in full control of their artistic content by working in collaboration with Kobalt Music Group via their platform AWAL (Artists Without A Label) They provide global release facilities to a curated selection of independent musicians and are very much viewed as being the model for the future. Their reach has been demonstrated by the band having developed a worldwide audience including a remarkably large following in Sweden where they are hoping to tour.

One of the things that sets them significantly apart from the many other emerging bands is that they are approached to comment and offer advice on being young, independent artists within the music industry today. Invitations for them to participate in panel discussions have included events hosted by the Performing Rights Society, or PRS (the collection agency for Royalties in the live sector), the Musicians Union and with Liverpool Sound City at their conference event. They have featured in press articles including the one below from Cheshire Live sharing their experiences and insights into developing and becoming successful as independent artists. This position has come about because of their reputation for professionalism in spite of being still only aged 19 alongside their rapidly growing popularity, which has been achieved without the backing of a Record Label or PR company. There are many musicians currently releasing independently, more than ever before, so for them to have been chosen by organisations operating on a national and global level to speak on the topic and offer advice to others is remarkable and a reflection of their momentum and the respect they have among peers.

There are other examples I could have selected such as a round-up of the top ten ‘must see’ gigs in Manchester in September where their sold out Deaf Institute date appeared at number four on the list, alongside the likes of Johnny Marr, The Pixies and US based band, The Flaming Lips. However, I have tried to choose three examples which, although they may not be from the biggest publications to have featured their work, I hope will best illustrate them in respect meeting the criteria. Their song, New Heights, is also the theme tune for a wrestling podcast which, although not a major sync deal, may also be relevant to support their overall picture of external usage of their music.

Thank you for taking the time to review my contribution and for allowing me to share my thoughts. All Best Wishes, User MMyll

The band successfully meet criterion 1 and 7 1, Have been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself.[note 1] This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries[note 2] 7, Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.

also, possibly within the notability criteria category of - Others - within the Indie genre

Composers and performers outside mass media traditions may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria: Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable music sub-culture.

Specific to Recordings, their releases have received numerous published reviews in independent publications

a recording may be notable if it meets at least one of these criteria:

Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent from the musician or ensemble who created it. This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries[note 2]

THE THREE ARTICLES SELECTED AS EXAMPLES TO ILLUSTRATE THE ABOVE CRITERION ARE -

1. I have selected a full page feature exclusively on The Zangwills which appeared across all editions of the Guardian newspapers (North West) series, including being the cover of their ‘Weekend’ entertainment pull out. https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/leisure/interviews/17333796.zangwills-the-band-tipped-for-big-things-in-2019/

2. Although this is an early review, it is significant because they were supporting a major artist for a major national promoter (SJM Concerts) To have an organiser of that stature publish a comment on their own site, ’The Zangwills took the stage by storm’ adds significantly to their notability and credibility within the industry. http://discover.gigsandtours.com/2018/02/review-yungblud-at-jimmys-manchester/

3. Finally, the article published in Cheshire Live in which they are again asked to comment on how to thrive and succeed whilst remaining independent. https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife-news/cheshire-thriving-independent-music-scene-16569748?fbclid=IwAR3lWyuyWnrAgv9sj64QX4i2g7-3Evt78PjoTYqxBLeo0I36mDFPB_SmfY4

@MMyll: I have copied this from my talk page.

1 and 3 seem good. 2 is probably not a WP:RELIABLE source because a promoter is not WP:INDEPENDENT of the band they promote or potentially promote. Since nothing else in WP:NMUSIC applies here, we're looking to satisfy WP:42. Is there another source or two similar in quality to 1 or 3 that you can bring to my attention?

We're going to have to be careful here since you have a declared WP:COI. Some of the text in the draft has a promotional tone and that will need to be fixed. I can work on that once I'm confident the notability bar has been cleared. Right now that's marginal. ~Kvng (talk) 20:31, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

MMyll (talk) 00:10, 6 September 2019 (UTC) Hi Kvng, thank you for the prompt reply, I take on board your point about a promoter's site possibly not being viewed as an independent source. Perhaps these articles from completely independent publications would be more suitable. If not, there are many more but these mention the music genre specifically which may be helpful along with the second one flagging up the band's significance in the local area.

https://halfway2nowhere.co.uk/2018/04/24/the-zangwills-the-horrors-of-sobriety/

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/leisure/interviews/17273001.hotly-tipped-zangwills-to-play-friars-court-on-saturday/

I'm happy to be guided by you on reducing the promotional tone of the content and would welcome any guidance on areas which might require editing.

Many Thanks, MMyll

@MMyll: Above you've already identified another piece from https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk. A second from the same publication doesn't help improve the case here. I am not familiar with https://halfway2nowhere.co.uk/. It appears to be bloggy so I'm not convinced it's a reliable source. You're welcome to bring others to my attention here. It may, however, be the case that it is just a little WP:TOOSOON for an article on this band. Wikipedia is quite comfortable staying a bit behind the curve on its coverage of breaking artists. ~Kvng (talk) 13:44, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Kvng

Apologies for sending a second piece from the same source, I’m a novice when it comes to encyclopedic writing. Again, I take you point about needing to be from a different publication to the previous article, I had honed-in on the content of the article which showed their profile within the region rather than the publication.

I’d previously not selected some of the articles below on the basis that they are not exclusive features however, there are the following options which appear in a major online music publication. It’s Liverpool based but with a national profile, one is for the selection of the best single releases of the month, one for the top ten gigs in Manchester this month, along with a review from earlier in the year. Perhaps one of these might be a suitable contender.

https://www.getintothis.co.uk/2018/05/deep-cuts-17-featuring-yank-scally-deh-yey-ty-freeman-eyesore-jinx-best-new-tracks-may-2018/

https://www.getintothis.co.uk/2019/08/manchester-gigs-of-the-month-september-2019/

https://www.getintothis.co.uk/2019/03/low-island-the-zangwills-32-tens-jacaranda-records-phase-one-liverpool/

Another major online music source is Popped Music, Manchester based but also with a national profile. They did a single review as part of an editor’s pick feature of eight tracks selected from national releases with The Zangwills chosen alongside artists such as Lewis Capaldi and Sam Fender. https://poppedmusic.co.uk/2018/10/26/popped-round-up-002/

Alternatively, a write up ahead of their first date in Scotland https://www.warrington-worldwide.co.uk/2019/01/11/local-bands-travel-north-of-the-border/

Or perhaps a post broadcast radio link https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/wire-exposure/wire-exposure-week-5-the-BZXVOvdxUeh/

I'm uncertain as to whether the entries below will be suitable as they only feature a single photograph of the band, however, there have been a few occasions where pictures of them have appeared in a weekly round-up of the best worldwide gig pictures from the preceding week with inclusions from locations as diverse as Colombia, USA and Australia and with other bands including The Damned, The Beat and David Byrne performing in New Orleans. I'm not sure if you might class this as a blog, it’s a site aimed at music photographers but it does have global contributors and reach.

https://letsshoutaboutit.co.uk/2018/01/21/sunday-club-7/ https://letsshoutaboutit.co.uk/2018/02/04/sunday-club-9/ https://letsshoutaboutit.co.uk/2018/05/06/sunday-club-19/

Something different - from FC United’s official page from when the band played a pre-match set at their stadium. http://www.fc-utd.co.uk/story.php?story_id=8347

Hopefully, there’s something from this selection that you feel may meet the criteria. Best Regards, MMyll MMyll (talk) 12:33, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

@MMyll: The requirement is significant coverage not exclusive features. The collective coverage at [1] plus this article can push this over the top. My opinion is no guarantee someone won't try to delete it once accepted. I do need to find some time to work on WP:NPOV before accepting. There's a WP:COI here so I need to be careful. ~Kvng (talk) 17:43, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

User:Kvng  Ok, that's good news although I understand there are no guarantees. I have tried to write with neutrality however, it will certainly benefit from having an expert overview. Please let me know if I can help or contribute anything further, otherwise, I'll leave it with you. 

Many thanks for your time, it's greatly appreciated. MMyll (talk) 22:39, 12 September 2019 (UTC) MMyll

@MMyll: I am on business travel. Will be back later next week. If you want to try to get another reviewer to have a look at it, feel free to visit the AfC help desk. ~Kvng (talk) 00:51, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Kvng - There's no great urgency, happy to wait until you get the opportunity to look it over. Unless you'd prefer me to pass it on in which case, please just let me know. Have a good trip - Many Thanks MMyll (talk) 14:04, 18 September 2019 (UTC) MMyll

Tracy Von Doom added a {{Notability}} tag to the article. I just wanted to make sure you saw this discussion. I don't dispute that notability may still be an issue here. ~Kvng (talk) 13:52, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Kvng, and I'm pretty much on the same page about notability: all I can find on the band is the level of local press coverage that you'd expect for a band from that area, along with blogs, as Kvng points out above. I don't think the article would survive an WP:AFD discussion in its present state, though I'm happy to be proved wrong if better coverage can be found, or if something remarkable happens to them soon (an award, a chart hit, regular rotation of a single, etc.), and I won't take it to AFD myself. User:MMyll, if you'd like me to move the article to draft to protect it while you work to improve it, I'd be happy to move it for you. Tracy Von Doom (talk) 14:03, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

For the record, I accepted this draft. I think it has an even chance of surviving an AfD. MMyll was made aware that notability is marginal. There is no desire to move this back to draft space; It either gets deleted or it doesn't. ~Kvng (talk) 17:32, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you again for your guidance, I am new to this process so it's greatly appreciated. I have previously read the information on notability criteria and did feel that while generally, as an emerging band their notability nationally was possibly still marginal, they did specifically meet the requirements on the basis of criteria 7, (Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city;in respect of being prominent within their local scene). That said, they do also have music scheduled for global release tomorrow and then every week until 11th October so that should generate significant additional coverage in support of the broader notability criteria. If it might be possible to perhaps hold off on any potential imminent deletion, I expect to be able to submit articles to bolster their case in the very near future. Kind Regards MMyll MMyll (talk) 10:53, 26 September 2019 (UTC)