Help talk:IPA/Franco-Provençal

The name of the language

Researchers (such as myself) using Wikipedia will expect articles to use the English names of languages -- as well as countries, cities, and so on. SIL International, the Registration Authority for ISO Standard 639-3:2007, lists this language as name Franco-Provençal, with Arpitan and Patois listed as alternate names. Similarly,

• Russki is an alternate name for Russian
• Français for French
• Castellano, Castilian, Español for Spanish
• Beifang Fangyan, Guanhua, Guoyu, Hanyu, Mandarin, Northern Chinese, Putonghua, Standard Chinese for Mandarin Chinese

and so on.

Franco-Provençal is the established English-language name. -- Thnidu (talk) 21:12, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Palatalization of /t/ and /d/

If I understand correctly, [c], [ts], and [tʃ] are mutually exclusive pronunciations for either the same phoneme or the same allophone of /t/ (not sure which, since the note is vague). I think it's confusing to have them on separate rows, we should either pick one of these and go with it or make it very clear which dialects to use. We should also keep them on the same row, as is done at Help:IPA for Portuguese and Galician and Help:IPA for Dutch and Afrikaans. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 15:03, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not proficient at all in Franco-Provençal, but I think the dominant allophones would either be the ch- and dg-like ones, or the sh- and zh-like ones, by what I know about Portuguese (my native language), Occitan and French. I also think it misleading as these sounds in Gallic and Iberian languages are generally palatalizations of /k/ rather than /t/.

I based the rhotic thingy on the Help page of IPA for German (and your revert messe up things).

The RP onset vowel at the 'aye' diphthong approaches the Romance open 'eh'. At least the RP onset vowel of the SQUARE lexical set is mid. 177.98.96.111 (talk) 15:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Improvements

@Thnidu and Aeusoes1: dear Wikipedians who improved this help, I came across some stuff that may help, if you are interested:

I discovered this chapter in a book that looks pretty useful, it's a pity two whole pages of the phonology section are hidden.

This page on frp.wikipedia lists several phonetic realizations, though being an orthographic help it does not explain where and to which extent they are spread.

Still it helped me to look up words on this online Arpitan dictionary (there are also sections where to search from Italian or French) to better infer pronunciations from the following excerpt: it is taken from Enciclopedia Treccani, an authoritative Italian encyclopedia which I often consult.
I added some translations, etymologies and plausible IPA transcriptions: as I am not 100% sure about the correspondence between IPA and the systems used here (looks like they used a different one for each variety), I underlined the most dubious sounds. I did not distinguish [ʁ] from [r], nor had I a precise idea on where a was [a] and where [ɑ] (same for [e] vs [ɛ], [o] vs [ɔ]).

“ A typical trait of Franco-Provençal is the palatalization of ca- and ga- word-initially and (word-internally) after a consonant. Examples:

• Usseglio (western Metropolitan City of Turin) dialect ćardúñ [tʃarˈduɲ] “wild thistle, cardoon”, ćáù [tʃaw] “hot”, bućı [ˈbutʃi] “mouth”, ǵalina [dʒaˈlina] “hen”, ǵoë [ˈdʒoə] “pleasure” (Latin carduus, calidus, bucca, gallīna, gaudium);
• Gruyères (Canton of Fribourg) dialect tsoϑe [ˈtsoθə] “trousers”, tsou [tsu] “cabbage”, tsotæ [tsoˈtɛ] “summer”, tsavó [tsaˈvo] “horse” (Latin *calceae, caulis, calidum tempus, caballus);
• Fribourg dialect tsó [tso] “compartment of a chest” (Latin calathus);
• Blonay (Canton of Vaud) dialect tsã [tsɑ̃] “field” (Latin campus);
• Val-d'Illiez (Canton of Valais) dialect tsê [tsɛː] “meat”, dzouta [ˈdzuta] “cheek”, dzourə [ˈdzurə] “to rejoice” (Latin carō, gabata, gaudēre).

But what is most characteristic about the phonology of these dialects is the preservation of stressed a (as in Occitan), except after a palatal consonant, where the outcome is e, ie or i (French trait); e.g. prā [prɑ] “meadow”, tsãtê [tsɑ̃ˈtɛː] “to sing”, but baillié [baˈʎje] “to give, to lend”, tsé [tse] “meat” (Latin prātus, cantāre, bāiulāre, carō). Palatals also affect final unstressed a: e.g. mürágli [myˈraʎi] “wall” (Medieval Latin mūrālia). Those dialects of the Bernese Jura that always change stressed a to e regardless of the preceding consonant should not be included, for this very reason, within Franco-Provençal.
For what concerns Italy, we shall show examples from the varieties of aforementioned Usseglio, Val Soana (northern Metropolitan City of Turin) and Aosta:

• Usseglio mare [ˈmɑre] “mother”, anvál [ɑ̃ˈvɑl] “same, alike”, ćévra [ˈtʃevra] “goat”, ćéire [ˈtʃejre] “to fall” (Latin māter, aequālis, capra, cadere); these are remains of a phenomenon that must have included in the past cases which are no longer affected, such as infinitives: vëiá [vəˈja] “to stay up”, sëá [səˈa] “to dry” (Latin vigilāre, siccāre), etc. now feature á, as in verbs where á is not preceded by a palatal (alá [aˈla] “to go”, muntá [mũˈta] “to climb, to go up”, lavá [laˈva] “to wash”); on the other side, final unstressed a always reduces to i consequently to palatalization: e.g. bući [ˈbutʃi] “mouth”, øëi [øˈəj] “needle”, urëi [uˈəj] “ear”, avëi [aˈvəj] “bee” (Latin bucca, *acūcula, auricula, apicula);
• Val Soana bagnér [bɑˈɲer] “to soak”, minǵér [mĩˈdʒer] “to eat”, vacci [ˈvatʃi] “cow”, manǵi [ˈmɑ̃dʒi] “sleeve” (Latin *balneāre, mandūcāre, vacca, manica), etc.; palëi [ˈpaləj] “straw”, rabi [ˈrabi] “anger” (Latin palea, *rabia); but ala [ˈɑla] “wing”, alar [aˈlar] “to go”;
• Aosta (Dora Baltea Valley) ćévra [ˈtʃevra] “goat”, vazze [ˈvatse] “cow”, paille [ˈpaʎe] “straw” (Latin capra, vacca, palea).

In a large number of Swiss dialects stressed a is normally realized as å / o [ɒ] [or other]: e.g. Blonay tsãtå [tsɑ̃ˈtɒ] “to sing”, nå [nɒ] “nose”, tsåno [ˈtsɒno] “oak” (Latin cantāre, nāsus, *cassanus), Gruyères vï [viː] “casket”, ætrevï [ɛtreˈviː] “to ask”, fïva [ˈfiːva] “casket”, ï [iː] “bee” (Latin vās, interrogāre, faba, apis), Certoux (Canton of Geneva) pwóu [pwu] “to prune”, nou [nu] “nose”, mïr [miːr] “mother” (Latin putāre, nāsus, māter) etc.
A is instead retained in Montana (Canton of Valais), unless it follows a palatal, when the typical Franco-Provençal trait shows up: e.g. prā [prɑ] “meadow”, tsãta [tsɑ̃ˈta] “to sing” (Latin prātus, cantāre), but kõdzi [kɔ̃ˈdzi] “leave”, tsouhí [tsuˈhi] “to wear [shoes]”, tsivra [ˈtsivra] “goat” (Latin commeātus, calceāre, capra) etc.; also Gruyères èeëí [ɛːəˈi] “to mow”, dzüyí [dzyˈji] “to play”, tsertsí [tsɛrˈtsi] “to look for” apyeyí [apjeˈji] “to yoke” (Latin secāre, *iocāre, circāre, adiugāre), but final važüva [vaˈʒyva] “sterile cow”, fárna [ˈfarna] “flour”, epelüva “spark” [ɛpɛˈlyva], ùípa [ˈwipa] “wasp” (Latin vacīva, farīna, *expellūta, vespa) vs gŏùə [ˈɡowə] “puddle”, fîrtse [ˈfiːrtse] “fork” (Frankish *gullja, Latin furca) etc.

Other remarkable traits of this language are:

• the following development of -tr-: → -dr- → -ßr- → -r-, as in French; e.g. pāre [ˈpɑre] “father”, māre [ˈmɑre] “mother”, frāre [ˈfrɑre] “brother” (Latin accusatives patrem, mātrem, frātrem), etc.;
• the dissolution of -mn- into -n-; e.g. fena [ˈfɛna] “woman” (Latin fēm[i]na), etc.;
• the fluctuation of stress; e.g. fárna [ˈfarna] “flour”, pérdya [ˈpɛrdja] “lost”, vyá [ˈvja] “life” (Latin farī́na, *perdī́ta, vī́ta), etc.;
• especially in Swiss dialects, the development (diverging from French) of -sp- into -f-, -st- into -ϑ- (-th-), and -cl- into -χl-: e.g. efé???na [ɛˈfena] “thorn”, wéfa [ˈwefa] “wasp”, tiϑa [ˈtiθa] “head”, fiϑa [ˈfiθa] “feast”, χlotse [ˈçlɔtse] “bell” (Latin spīna, vespa, testa, festa, clocca) etc.

Naturally, within the vast extension of this linguistic group you can detect other local features. For example, in an area of Valais, after a Latin ī a velar sound is produced: e.g. ligbra [ˈliɡbra] “free”, rigva [ˈriɡva] “bank, shore” (Latin lībera, rīpa); and in another area, two different forms can be found of the masculine article, one for the nominative and one for the accusative: e.g. il tsã ye sø [il ˈtsɑ̃ je ˈsœ] “the field is dry”, but traversā lo tsã [travɛrˈsɑ lo ˈtsɑ̃] “to cross the field”. Plural forms in -as is often simply -ə in multiple areas: e.g. vatse [ˈvatsə] “cows”. In the Italian zone, but elsewhere too, final -o stays unchanged. It is also interesting, among other things, the variety of developments of participles in -atu/-ata.

” — Giulio Bertoni, FRANCO-PROVENZALE

イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 09:20, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98:(イヴァンスクルージ九十八) Thank you. This will certainly be helpful to anyone who works on this page, including me if I return to it. --Thnidu (talk) 16:36, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

What does

èeëí [ɛːəˈi]

have to do with s, per your note c?:

Seriously, no idea how one is supposed to understand this. Does really s sound èe?

--Thnidu (talk) 16:43, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

@Thnidu: I intended the etymological explanation as a means of comparison, so in that case the ⟨s⟩ is that of Latin secāre (found in parentheses). ;) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 16:52, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: Thanks, but it's still unclear to me. Maybe it's partly due to my small smartphone screen, which forces the entries in your bulleted list of examples to narrow multi-line paragraphs, but it might be well for you to expand that brief efn to be clearer and more explicit. --Thnidu (talk) 17:01, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

@Thnidu: oh, then I will if it looks unclear. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 17:03, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: Grazie / ありがとう --Thnidu (talk) 17:16, 14 August 2018 (UTC)