Help talk:IPA/Georgian

This seems to be the ISO-9984 : 1996 romanization, please specify this.

There's currently a (valid) clash between the Romanisation used in Wikipedia and Wiktionary [ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Georgian_transliteration ]

The wiktionary page uses "BGN/PCGN (1981)" while linking to ISO-9984, there's also another page in Wiktionary [ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Georgian_script ] which uses the same table as here (I assume again ISO-9984, wasn't able to find the actual standard anywhere but here ::

http://www.translitteration.com/transliteration/en/georgian/iso-9984/ )

79.179.2.51 (talk) 11:29, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Allophones

This article should mention the allophony of certain consonants and vowels.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A7DCF9606BA856FCA5CC25918ADB37EF/S0025100306002659a.pdf/standard_georgian.pdf 92.184.124.190 (talk) 22:30, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Vowels

With Georgian language#Vowels in mind, change vowels to [i e a o u] for broad transcription. May also be advisable to change the pronunciation template Template:IPA-ka to output /phonemic/ transcriptions. Nicodene (talk) 08:19, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

As I explained on your talk page, please cite your sources that demonstrate that your proposed symbols are established in literature on Georgian linguistics, or your proposal will get nowhere. Switching to slashes is out of scope of this talk because it would entail a change to MOS:PRON (and something I would oppose, because brackets still convey the transcription is reasonably close to the realization and that Georgian lacks salient allophony is just a coincidence not generalizable to other langauges). Nardog (talk) 17:19, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

@Nardog The sources are, and were months ago, cited at the provided link. What scholarly source is there, other than the single JIPA article based on one speaker, to support /ɛ ɑ ɔ/? Just because something sat uncontested on English Wikipedia for some years does not mean it actually represents a scholarly consensus. Nicodene (talk) 00:18, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98 It very much has been discussed, with sources cited and all. Nicodene (talk) 07:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Nicodene: does not look like actual consensus was reached, but I’m sorry for overlooking this. In any case, after changing the help we should remember to also change all the transcriptions pointing to it. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 09:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Nardog?

Nicodene (talk) 09:45, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm fine with the change, so long as the existing transcriptions are updated to reflect it (they haven't been despite the change to the key two months ago). Nardog (talk) 10:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Nardog Sorry for another ping, but where can one see a list of the existing transcriptions? Nicodene (talk) 10:23, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:IPA-ka. Nardog (talk) 10:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Turns out you did include various allophones to transcriptions which the guide does not cover, such as /v/ weakening and voicing assimilations in clusters. Manglisi had already used [ŋ]. We should include these into the guide and transcriptions as long as sources say they consistently occur. All the more reason not to use slashes. Nardog (talk) 18:02, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

@Nicodene: also this. I started to go through the transcriptions as well and there are symbols that are not listed in the table, such as the ones mentioned here but also [ɣ]. Ideally, we should only use symbols that the reader can find in the tablet, and vice versa. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 11:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. I take it ʷ is fine, since someone had added it. Nicodene (talk) 11:15, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

No, it should be either added to the key or removed from transcriptions. Nardog (talk) 13:38, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

It is in the key. Nicodene (talk) 21:17, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

A footnote doesn't count. Added. Nardog (talk) 21:24, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Not "ideally", it's the raison d'être of a key. Nardog (talk) 12:48, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

ჱ and ჵ

I think they should be removed from guide, they were used in old Georgian but in modern Georgian they are obsolete since /eː/ and /oː/ don't occur in standard modern Georgian. 2A01:E0A:4D8:C490:51E8:7590:E863:7061 (talk) 23:42, 5 September 2022 (UTC)