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November 15

Would the United States congress be able to expell states or validate a state request to leave?

Simple question : my understanding about the secession war is that states can't secede unilaterally... But what about a simple congress vote even if the state doesn't want to leave the Union? A motivation would be to get the required quorum to repeal an amendment to the constitution or for a state to escape authoritarian rule... 82.66.26.199 (talk) 12:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

It seems to me that it's kind of implied by Article IV, which says that Congress doesn't have power to unilaterally redefine a state: "...no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:29, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

That says the opposite of what OP asked? For example, it says that Northern California can't split off into a separate state, not that Congress can't kick out a state. Phil Ochs once proposed something like the latter but as far as I know, it didn't get any traction. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 23:48, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

What I was understanding is joining like Texas is a simple vote. And I looked at the post civil war jurisprudence that ruled why secession was illegal. 2A01:E0A:401:A7C0:417A:1147:400C:C498 (talk) 11:05, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

As you see at Reserved powers, the US Constitution specifies in the 10th Amendment that the powers not granted to the federal government are reserved to the states, unless prohibited to the states. Since the Constitution does not talk about expelling a state, it follows that the federal government does not have that power. (Unless, of course, someone convinces the Supreme Court that something in the Constitution implies such power.) --142.112.149.206 (talk) 16:48, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

That stuff contradicts the post civil war supreme court ruling because that would imply on the reverse that states have the power to seceede by themselves. And that doesn t tell about a state asking Congress to leave. 2A01:E0A:401:A7C0:417A:1147:400C:C498 (talk) 11:08, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

think literally, the way a state leaves is the same as how a state is created because leaving is the same as creating a new state; It would take congressional approval and that states legislatures approval. They would be creating a new state, but the sovereignty of that new state would be equal with the United States, not subordinate as what we think of as a state traditionally is. 208.121.35.65 (talk) 20:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

yes, I m thinking leaving can be done the same way a state is created. 2A01:E0A:401:A7C0:64A1:A0FD:CDDA:2E99 (talk) 10:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

You can't even do it by constitutional amendment. Article V says no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

I suppose theoretically you could pass an amendment that says "OK, California gets to send two senators because we can't do anything about that, but for all other purposes it is no longer a state of the United States".

Could you do this last by statute, without an amendment? I sincerely doubt it. But I suppose the question would have to be tested in court. --Trovatore (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

That means that every state has the same number of senators, unless for some inexplicable reason a state wanted only one senator. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:27, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Which implies that you can't expel a state, unless you let it have the same number of senators as the states you don't expel. --Trovatore (talk) 00:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

If you expel a state, they're no longer part of the USA, so their senators would be irrelevant. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:13, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Bugs. Come on, you're smarter than that. If you expel the state and don't let it keep its senators, then you are depriving of it of its equal Suffrage in the Senate. You can't do it, period, not even with an amendment. It's an entrenched clause, the only one remaining in our constitution that can have any actual effect. (Theoretically, you also can't prohibit the importation of slaves before 1808, but....) --Trovatore (talk) 03:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

If a state has been expelled, it's no longer in the union. The former state could have as many senators as they want, but they won't be sitting in the U.S. Senate, so it doesn't matter. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:08, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

No, that doesn't work. The state cannot be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate, so its senators have to be allowed to vote. If you argue that senators from a non-state can't vote, then you're forced to the conclusion that you can't expel the state in the first place. There's nothing subtle here. --Trovatore (talk) 07:11, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

(I think this really is the most natural conclusion: Article V is an absolute and permanent bar to ever expelling a state without its consent under any circumstances whatsoever, and this cannot be changed by amendment or any sequence of amendments. As long as the Constitution itself is not entirely overthrown, states cannot be expelled and must be allowed to keep their equal vote in the Senate. My workaround about expelling the state but still letting it vote in the Senate was mostly a quibble. Whether you could first de-entrench the clause with one amendment, then disfranchise a state in a second one, is a more difficult question, but I would tend to think the answer is no.) --Trovatore (talk) 07:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

If they've been expelled, then they are no longer a state. Their only recourse would be to take it to the Supreme Court. For that, we have the post-Civil War precedent, where states had essentially expelled themselves, and had to earn their way back into the Union. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Bugs. YOU CAN'T DEPRIVE THEM OF THEIR VOTE IN THE SENATE WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT. Period. If expulsion, would have that effect, then YOU CAN'T EXPEL THEM. Again, there is no subtlety here. --Trovatore (talk) 07:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

But I m interested also in the case of a state volountarily leaving. Without consent seems to me it means it can be done with consent. 2A01:E0A:401:A7C0:64A1:A0FD:CDDA:2E99 (talk) 11:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

You can do anything with a constitutional amendment, at that point the power resides with whoever can force their interpretation through. Even without that, I would hesitate to discount legal shenanigans. There's a long history of constitutional reinterpretation in the United States, and the current At least one US supreme court judge has previously called into question the 14th amendment the incoming government seems to want to remove. CMD (talk) 07:26, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

You say "you can do anything with a constitutional amendment", but that is incorrect, by Article V, as I explain above. Why you're linking to articles about Singapore I have no idea. --Trovatore (talk) 07:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, if you can think of better examples of states that were expelled, I would be interested. CMD (talk) 12:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

It's just irrelevant to American constitutional law. Malaysia has a completely different system. No American state has ever been expelled. The ones that seceded, at the time of the American Civil War, are admittedly a complicated case, with the official legal position being that they never legally seceded at all (a side effect of Texas v. White, which really wasn't about that question), but on the other hand having to be "readmitted" under the Reconstruction Laws. --Trovatore (talk) 17:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

This means it can be done if the state consent. 2A01:E0A:401:A7C0:64A1:A0FD:CDDA:2E99 (talk) 10:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Peau de soie

Hello. I read the following sentence in a translation EN→FR of Herbert Lieberman's Necropolis (Paris, France loisirs, 1983, p.135): « (…) à côté de lui, une femme brune, très petite, vêtue d'une longue peau de soie [in italics in the text] en dentelle, belle plutôt que jolie, regard intense et attachant.»

The wording "a long peau de soie in lace" makes me think that peau de soie is the name of a clothing but I can't find which one on the web - unless use these terms to designate only a type of silk (incidentally ignored on fr.WP).

But maybe the French translation is bad... Does anyone have the English version of this novel? Or does anyone know the meaning of peau de soie as clothing?

Could you enlighten me? Thanks already, Égoïté (talk) 17:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

There's an entry for this term on Wiktionary: en:wikt:peau de soie. Also see paduasoy. --Amble (talk) 17:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

The problem is wel there: the sentence in French indicates that the woman is dressed, therefore wearing a garment. We would not say in French that she is dressed in a long wool or a long silk.

In addition, the Wiktionary says: "heavy closely-woven silk fabric, faced with satin on both sides" and the text of the novel speaks of lace. The lace could be silk but not tightly woven covered with satin on both sides! (And, by the way, satin is not a material but a way of weaving.) Égoïté (talk) 18:08, 15 November 2024 (UTC) (sorry for my English)

Lieberman's original on Google Books: "...beside him, a dark, diminutive woman in long peau de soie lace, more handsome than pretty, with a strikingly arresting gaze." It's a normal construction in English: "he was in tweed", "she was in black silk", and so on. --Antiquary (talk) 20:53, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok thank you very much Antiquary ! So I translate "à côté de lui, une femme brune, petite, vêtue de longues dentelles en peau de soie, plus belle que jolie..." Thank you !Égoïté (talk) 21:54, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure that "From French xx " always means the term given is to be used in French like from the English sentence (vitrinelinguistique). The safest path it seems would be to find a fashion account, in French, reporting about the Wedding of Princess Beatrice and Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi, in July 2020 : dress is made from ivory peau de soie taffeta and is trimmed with ivory duchess satin. --Askedonty (talk) 00:59, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago Detroit Branch

Why do they have to call it a branch of Chicago?? Why can't they simply call it the "Federal Reserve Bank of Detroit"?? Or even the "Federal Reserve Bank 7th District Detroit Branch" as distinguished from the main Chicago branch?? (Please answer with something that is valid regardless of what federal reserve bank branch I'm asking this question about.) Georgia guy (talk) 18:56, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Because it's not a separate legal entity from the "Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago", and as such it wouldn't make sense to call it the "Federal Reserve Bank of Detroit". In theory the branch could have been called "Federal Reserve Bank 7th District Detroit Branch", however as "Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago" is the recognized name for the organization, using 7th District in the name of the branch office would just introduce confusion. Amstrad00 (talk) 19:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

The Federal Reserve Act specifies what the Federal Reserve Banks are, how many there should be (at least 8 but not than 12), how they are governed, how they may establish branches, and what the banks and districts are to be named. So a valid answer to your question is "because it's the law". The authors of the law could have chosen a different system, but I don't see why they would have wanted to; these names make pretty good sense to me. Note that each Federal Reserve Bank is owned by its shareholders, the individual banks that are members of that Federal Reserve Bank. A different Federal Reserve Bank would have its own shares, its own member banks, and its own governance. A branch does not. You could ask your congressional representatives to sponsor a bill replacing the current system with something else. --Amble (talk) 20:30, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussed at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 October 17#Letters for US Federal Reserve branches. 2A00:23D0:50D:E501:51FF:910C:BEC9:3E2F (talk) 14:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Polygon

How serious do people take Polygon in terms of their critical commentary? They just released a ranking of all MCU films that I find to be completely off the mark. Do people find these rankings helpful or informative? Looking closely at their lists, anything that has more drama and dialogue than action is automatically ranked lower. I can't accept that people actually think this way. Is this normal? Viriditas (talk) 22:11, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

IDK aboout Polygon in particular, but I frequently see articles about movies, or even bodies of writing about particular movies, that seem completely wrong. I have often thought movie X was terrible, even though its reviews were almost entirely favorable. Sometimes vice versa too. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 11:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying that any review that disagrees with your personal, subjective opinion is "wrong"? How dare they write their review without consulting you first? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:25, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I would expect reviewers to have a range of responses just like moviegoers do. So some of the reviewers' opinions would coincide with mine and others would not. If I think a movie is bad and all the reviewers think it is good, then yes, it makes me feel like something is wrong with the reviewing establishment. I'm not any kind of movie expert and I don't think my opinion is anything special or unique. So I'd expect my reaction to a movie to be shared with at least a few others, including a few reviewers. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 01:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I expect that the group of movie reviews that you or anyone typically reads will be a small sub-set of all such reviews, and what you find in your sub-set will not necessarily be representative of the full spectrum of opinions. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

In my experience, people who are more or less unfamiliar with the comics go to MCU movies specifically for the action. So I have no problem believing idea that general entertainment reviewers focus on and prioritize that aspect of the movies. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

spoiler effect

The article spoiler effect (about losing candidates affecting election outcomes) doesn't have much to say about whether the effect is a good thing or a bad thing as a question of political theory. It refers to "independence of irrelevant alternatives" but doesn't give meaningful support to that principle, and there are obvious arguments against it. Can anyone recommand any noteworthy literature on this, particularly the view favoring spoilers? Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 23:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't know anything about their role in more complicated voting systems, but in "First Past the Post" or plurality voting inside each state of the United States, there's a prima facie plausible case to be made that spoiler candidates affected the outcome of both the 1992 and 2000 presidential elections. Of course, Ross Perot in 1992 was a lot closer to being a viable candidate than Ralph Nader in 2000. Some claim that without the 2000 Nader campaign, there wouldn't have been a 2003 Iraq war. Replacing plurality voting with another electoral system might make it possible for people to vote for minor-party candidates without fearing that this would help elevate their worst option to the presidency. This would allow some people to express a greater range of opinions with their vote, but might lessen major-party cohesion... AnonMoos (talk) 04:37, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm willing to accept as a fact that Nader spoiled the 2000 election for Gore, or (alternatively) as Nader put it, "Al Gore cost me the presidency". So the spoiler effect is real, though it could have happened the other way too (Pat Buchanan got some right wing votes in 2000 iirc). I tend to think Perot didn't change the 1992 outcome but that's harder to know. I'm wondering if there are established arguments (e.g. from game theory) that the spoiler effect in general is a good thing or a bad thing. Certainly similar effects happen throughout real life and not just elections, like in good–better–best pricing of soft drinks at the movies, Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 05:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Historians believe that Clinton won the 1992 election because Perot took votes away from Bush 41. It is likely that Bush 41 would have won if Perot hadn't entered the race. I personally believe this was true based on the people I knew who supported Perot; there were a lot of them. The more interesting thing is how Perot paved the way for Trump to emerge. Carville famously said, "If Trump is the Jesus of blue-collar populism, then Ross Perot was its John the Baptist." Lots of truth there. Viriditas (talk) 09:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there is consensus among historians about Perot being a spoiler. Perot took votes from both candidates and there is a significant (maybe not majority, idk) view that in the end, he didn't matter. I can certainly believe historians differ with each other on the question.

In Trump-Harris 2024 of course the real spoiler was abstainers. So to really eliminate the spoiler effect we'd need mandatory voting as well as IRV or whatever. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 11:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Look at the numbers. Bush lost because almost 20% of Republicans voted for Perot. I was there. I remember when it all went down. As for Trump-Harris, the spoiler was Harris, Biden, and the DNC. To wage an effective and targeted campaign, Biden needed to have announced his retirement well in advance, priming the American people that he was only a one term president. That, of course, never happened. That it got so late and so far past the point of no return, to the point where most people didn't know there was a problem until the middle of 2024 when the debate debacle occurred, that was the end. I watched it live and couldn't believe what I was seeing. Harris was not a popular candidate nor was she chosen by a primary or a convention in relation to other potential challengers, she was anointed, and she didn't have enough time to wage a serious campaign. However, if you insist on a real existential spoiler aside from the involved parties, there is an emerging consensus that the conservative media ecosystem is decades ahead of Democrats, to the point where there is virtually no liberal media except for MSNBC, and even there, it is center to center-right. Viriditas (talk) 11:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

The flaw in much of this reasoning is in making assumptions about what people would have done if so-and-so wasn't in the race. Or, for that matter, if so-and-so was in the race. A lot of Bernie Sanders supporters in 2016 didn't like Hillary so didn't bother voting. It would have been interesting to see how Trump would have done head-to-head with Sanders. But we'll never know for sure. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Well we're getting away from the question of whether the possibility of spoilers is good or bad. In any specific election it obviously depends on what outcome you want. Btw at least a few Sanders supporters in 2016 ended up voting for Trump.[1] 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 18:47, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Define "good" and "bad". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. In politics, of all things, what's good for someone is bad for someone else. And you'll always be able to find sources saying that this or that circumstance, voting system, whatever is a good thing, and a bad thing. Ultimately, it's subjective, and the Ref Desk cannot decree that it's one thing or another. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:19, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Does Australia have compulsory voting? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, at least at Federal and State election level. There are PSA announcements (tee-hee) on TV before elections that end with the voice-over saying "voting is compulsory". Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:32, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Bugs, good question (good vs bad). Let's say, good = steering public policy towards where the electorate wants it to be, even when the entrenched leadership of the major parties wants it to be someplace different. I'm wondering if this question has been studied in the political or economics literature. Jack, I didn't ask for a decree from the ref desk, I asked whether there is existing published work on the issue. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 22:55, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm wondering if this question has been studied in the political or economics literature.

Yes, quite famously, in fact. See Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page 2014. For the sake of transparency, the conservative establishment pushed back quite a bit on this,[2] which is to be expected, but their response is just denial, in my opinion. They do this kind of thing a lot, often coordinating their denials as shared talking points. Gilens and Page were correct, but the staus quo won't accept it. Viriditas (talk) 23:04, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll look at that. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 00:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Viriditas, can you check the page number in that citation? The pdf starts on page 564. 2014 is the publication year. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 01:17, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Viriditas (talk) 02:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

"without fearing that this would help elevate their worst option to the presidency" Define worst option. The way the two-party system worked in Greece between 1977 and 2012, the two dominant parties were New Democracy (a combination of conservatives, various shades of liberals, and reactionaries who found a new political home) and PASOK (nominal socialists with increasingly pro-business interests). Both had plenty of corruption scandals, both had close ties to business elites, and both were rather reluctant to reform chronic bureaucratic problems in the public sector. At some point many of the voters had problems in seeing any actual difference between them. My understanding of two-party systems is that the voter gets the option to choose between two political parties which are both deaf to the voter's needs. Dimadick (talk) 04:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Viriditas, oh I see, Benjamin I. Page was one of the authors of that article published in 2014, so you gave the name and year. I thought you were saying to look at page 2014 of the article. Ok I will read the article but a quick scan didn't seem to say anything about the spoiler effect. Dimadick, creating the possibility of electing the worst candidate is basically the definition of the spoiler effect. It's something like a doomsday device that can trigger if the lesser of two evils major-party candidate is insufficiently popular.

There are various arguments (some crazy I'm sure) for and against the intentional creation of a doomsday device. Many alternative voting systems like IRV aim to get rid of the spoiler effect. So I'm looking for the arguments for and against getting rid of it. IRV proponents seem to automatically assume that the effect is a bad thing and eliminating it is good. I would like to see a careful analysis of this assumption.

Note, I think the US two-party system, and the spoiler effect, are supposed to be emergent properties of the first past the post voting system that we use, by Duverger's law. Greek elections are different and the effects are less strong. I don't want to get soapboxy but Syriza did manage to win in Greece in 2015, only to squander its mandate through incredibly dumb errors by people who knew better but shut their eyes. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 05:39, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Viriditas, I looked at that article and I think I had heard of it before. It says basically that average citizens voting has almost no effect on policy, but nothing about the spoiler effect per se afaict. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 07:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

You wrote: Let's say, good [equals] steering public policy towards where the electorate wants it to be, even when the entrenched leadership of the major parties wants it to be someplace different. I'm wondering if this question has been studied in the political or economics literature.. It has, that’s what the Gilens & Page paper is about. Viriditas (talk) 07:59, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The G&P paper discusses how party leaders can want different policies than what the public wants. Sure, that difference is a given. What I want to know is whether the spoiler effect, specifically, does anything to either reinforce or counteract the power of those party leaders. Like in a slightly altered and oversimplified timeline, Bush runs on a 100% evil platform and Gore runs on 99% evil, expecting to win by a 1% margin. But he ignores Nader who eats that margin, thus Gore loses. If Gore were smarter, he could have run as 90% evil instead of 99%. Then he wins by enough to outcompete Bush and Nader put together. The spoiler effect has made public policy (or at least Gore's campaign platform) 9% less evil, i.e. closer to what the public wants.

Of course that's a pretty silly analysis but I have no real knowledge in this area. So again, I'm wondering whether poli sci or economics types have had anything to say about it. I figure they are more clueful than I am. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 09:00, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

November 16

Roger Waters' 1990 Berlin Wall concert

The concert at a strip of land between the Brandenburg Gate and Leipziger Platz. The concert was staged on vacant terrain between Potsdamer Platz and the Brandenburg Gate, a location that was part of the former "no man's land" of the Berlin Wall.

Where can I find a map or diagram showing the layout of Roger Waters' 1990 Berlin Wall concert stage and perimeter, overlaid on today's map of Potsdamer Platz? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I thought I saw this published in a magazine back in the early 1990s, maybe Spin or Rolling Stone? You can recreate it yourself using the exact blueprints of the stage design[3] and then orienting the direction forward towards the stage[4] and facing towards the audience.[5] That should give you the relative location, but you'll have to spend a while on the maps apps to get it just right. Viriditas (talk) 20:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Andy, I was able to figure this out in five minutes using Google Earth. You can just create it yourself. The backside of the Reichstag building (without a dome in 1990) is just behind the stage and the Brandenburg Gate is just to the lower right in of the audience section. The dimensions of the stage itself are widely available. As for the total length of the audience section and its width, these are easy to estimate based on all the landmarks. Viriditas (talk) 22:40, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure you must be joking, about the audience section. Every single reader be it simply of a mainstream magazines will have had to know that to ensure that the Brandenburg Gate, which had been damaged during the first Berlin-wide New Year's Eve celebration, was not completely destroyed, it was agreed that the stage would be set up south of the current Holocaust Memorial (tagesspiegel, via translated). Info ? Faked rumours ? --Askedonty (talk) 23:32, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for any confusion, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say or how that changes what I said. It sounds to me like you are taking exception with the relative proximity of the audience to the Brandenburg Gate? That's a bit silly, since all I said was that the gate was to the lower right of the audience; I did not say how far away it was. However, to refute your assertion, many of the accounts of the event indicate that they could see the gate from the audience section. Also, how about you look at the links to pics I posted above? It sounds like you posted your comment before looking at the photos. Viriditas (talk) 23:40, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I see the problem. It's a typo that you interpreted quite literally. My mistake. I fixed it up above. Viriditas (talk) 23:45, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Do not regret. I would have vastly preferred there were no pretext for them to manage people in consequence. --Askedonty (talk) 23:54, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Here's the info originally requested: 52°31′00″N 13°22′34″E I should have posted this in the beginning. Viriditas (talk) 00:02, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, no doubt, they just wanted making me entirely crazy. Never mind, according to the article I've hit it's more to the South and to the East. Wouldn't your spot be in the trees according to the picture ? --Askedonty (talk) 00:18, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Probably, but every time I try to get a coordinate it gives me the wrong one. I think that's good enough for someone to add a layout in that general vicinity. The article you posted says the stage was 200 meters wide, which sounds just right. Andy can use that as a starting point to draw a perimeter. You can than refer to the photos up above for length and width. Viriditas (talk) 00:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

All that heat, and no light. The question was not "where did the concert occur", but "where can I find a map or diagram showing the layout...". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

What heat? The answer is: you can make it yourself. I apologize that you don’t like the answer. I was just about to upload the image I made, but given your attitude, I’ll just delete it now. Viriditas (talk) 10:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Deleting your original research is probably for the best. The Brandenburg Gate is visible in the above image, behind and to the right of the circular screen. The coordinates you have given are in what was West, not East, Berlin. My question remains unanswered. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

This may be the perimeter with "BÜHNE" marking the stage? Looks like maybe a cropped poster or program? fiveby(zero) 13:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. That's exactly what I wanted. Google translate says it's the reverse side of the concert ticket. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

 This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Liberal Arts Colleges in US factors

Is there a website that shows a list of Liberal Arts colleges that offer a) History program, b) that offer football programs and c) shows which liberal arts college has the significant student population that are 1) Middle Eastern, 2) Afro-Caribbean, Sub Saharan African, and 3) Pacific Islanders ? Donmust90 (talk) 23:03, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I would say that all Liberal Arts colleges in the US offer a history program. People generally use US News and World Report College Rankings to search. Here is their list of Liberal Arts Colleges by the strength of their History programs. Their ethnicity data is behind a paywall. One could start with List of historically black colleges and universities. As for Football, smaller schools can be found in 2024 NAIA football rankings, 2024 NCAA Division II football rankings, and 2024 NCAA Division III football rankings. Abductive (reasoning) 11:59, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

November 17

Rwanda immigration

UK ex-PM Sunak, and more recently incoming POTUS Trump, have floated the idea of deporting unwanted migrants to Rwanda.[6] Rwanda doesn't sound like the worst place in the world (it's bad, but not at the absolute bottom), but doesn't Rwanda itself have anything to say about this? The idea is to just fly people to Rwanda and have them ask for asylum there, when (in Trump's case) the US and maybe multiple Central American countries have declined? What happens if Rwanda also says no? Has there been any mention in some kind of foreign aid to Rwanda to entice them to go along with the scheme? Basically, "why Rwanda" out of all other possible countries. The whole thing sounds bizarre. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 22:44, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

See Rwanda asylum plan for the British version. DuncanHill (talk) 22:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The British sent unwanted citizens (not just illegal immigrants) to Australia for 80 years. HiLo48 (talk) 23:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

HiLo48; actually, there was no provision in the Aliens Act 1793 for transportion. Unwanted migrants, chiefly French, were simply expelled (many went on to the United States). The act lapsed in 1836 and there were no further immigration controls until the Aliens Act 1905. Alansplodge (talk) 11:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, the Rwanda asylum plan article helped. The Australia scheme was in a different age and probably wouldn't work now ;). 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 01:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

It could work, if America had a vast, sparsely populated chunk of land. As to sending them to Rwanda, it's well to keep in mind that Trump floats a lot of ideas, just what could charitably be called "thinking out loud", which have no real possibility of happening. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

we shall see 130.74.59.186 (talk) 20:25, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Australia has its own similar third-country camp, the Nauru Regional Processing Centre, and formerly had the Manus Regional Processing Centre too. CMD (talk) 01:31, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Bugs, there's lots of unpopulated land in the US, but if you let someone settle anywhere in the US then I think it would be difficult to stop them from leaving there. And people don't want to live in those places. Offers of housing to homeless US citizens in low population areas haven't been taken up much, since there are better services available in urban centers. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:2CDE (talk) 01:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

The Trumpies aren't advocating voluntary resettlement. If they stay in America, they could be in something like the camps Japanese-Americans were locked in during WWII. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:01, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Internment camps could work well for what Republicans have in mind, but could have negative consequences for public health. Historically, internment camps are connected to the quick spread of "endemic contagious diseases" to the entire population of internees. The infection of nearby settlements is not out of the question. Dimadick (talk) 14:32, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

immigration detention (pending the resolution of asylum claims, for example),

as contrasted with the present 'catch-and-release' policy, or the granting of temporary protected status to the citizens of countries (or those who claim citizenship of certain countries) writ large, if enough of them enter the country illegally,

is meant to incentivize autorepatriation

i don't understand how someone can believe these outrageous lies, when we have already had a trump presidency

big promises - and ineffectual results, hampered by the civil service, who, as it turns out, cannot just be slashed overnight, and by more moderate advisors

as Vance predicted - the victory of trump will be very harmful to the mental health of a certain class of people, who actually believe, as Harris repeatedly insisted, that Trump is a 'fascist', will be a 'dictator' - and then conceded the election to him without incident

How will the American people resolve this cognitive dissonance ?

please settle down and accept that a new golden age is beginning 130.74.58.180 (talk) 16:11, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Conceding an election to the actual winner and having a peaceful transition of power is the hallmark of respect for properly conducted democratic processes. Some live by this principle. Others ..... -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

November 18

By Today's Standards, What Kind of Socialist is Babeuf?

Babeuf supports the abolition of currency, but still wants to retain the existence of national borders, and I'm not sure if that would make him a Marxist or a non-Marxist socialist. I'm also not sure if Babeuf is closer to left-authoritarianism or left-libertarianism. Eougt59 (talk) 04:05, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

He's pre-Marxist. Some would call all pre-Marxist socialists "utopian", and "Utopian socialism" appears in the infobox of his article... AnonMoos (talk) 05:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

He was regarded as the first revolutionary communist. He advocated for equality in society and the abolition of private property. However, in today’s standards, justice and equity are more important than equality. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Limits to property rights of non-living items

Suppose, purely hypothetically, that Billy O'Nair has acquired a Sunflowers painting, completely legally, being the highest bidder at an auction. At a whim, he decides to destroy it. Could Mr. O'Nair face legal consequences? More generally, are there jurisdictions that to some extent protect the preservation of highly-valued and possibly irreplaceable items, even when they have not specifically been awarded some official status such as "national treasure"? Or, conversely, are there jurisdictions for which it is foreseeable – such as based on jurisprudence – that such vile abuse of one's stewardship over one's property can be exercised with impunity?

(I am aware of the fact that "highly-valued" has a subjective aspect. But so do many other commonly accepted terms used in legal contexts, such as "reasonable care", "cruel and unusual", "undue hardship", so please do not get stuck on that.)  --Lambiam 14:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

If the jurisdiction in question (ie: the state), considers the preservation of an item to be something desirable, then why has the state not taken control over it? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes a nation will intervene in auctions to prevent a cultural item leaving the country. On the other hand, Steve Wynn put his elbow through Le Rêve (Picasso) without getting thrown into a UNESCO dungeon or anything. He even wanted money back for doing it.  Card Zero  (talk) 16:59, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

The Right to Destroy Artwork says that in the UK, the owner of the work can do with it as they please, citing the destruction of Graham Sutherland's Portrait of Winston Churchill by Churchill's widow or staff. In France there are droits d’auteur (author's rights) which allows the artist to object to the destruction of his work, although in the OP's example, any copyright would have expired long since. Similar rights exist in the USA under the Visual Artists Rights Act of 1990. Alansplodge (talk) 17:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

According to our article, the painting was destroyed within a year after its creation, some ten years before Churchill's death – although I do not see this early destruction date in the cited source.  --Lambiam 05:43, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

The article "The Right to Destroy Artwork" states that The Visual Artists Rights Act includes the prohibition of destruction of artwork. A speaker in the House of Representatives is reported as having given the rationale that "society is the ultimate loser when works are modified or destroyed", which comes close to the essence of my question. However, the act only grants rights to the author, which only persist for their lifetime, so this stated rationale is not the intention of the law.  --Lambiam 06:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

A citation leads me to Sprankling, John G (2014). "The Right to Destroy". The International Law of Property. Oxford. WP:Library doesn't seem to be working for me right now, but the abstract hints it might be useful. Of course many jurisdictions have limitations on the use of real property and some might possibly apply before something is "designated" historic. fiveby(zero) 17:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Here's the wplibrary link.

International law restricts the owner’s right to destroy artistic works by recognizing the artist’s right of integrity. The principal source of this limitation is the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works (Berne Convention), which applies to all “literary and artistic works,” including architecture, paintings, photographs, and sculpture. Article 6bis sets forth the moral rights held by the creator of such a work, including the right of integrity. It provides that even after the transfer of all “economic rights” in the work, the creator retains the right “to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to, the said work which would be prejudicial to his honor or reputation.”...Most states have adopted domestic laws to protect this right.

— p. 298

Adeney, Elizabeth (2006). The Moral Rights of Authors and Performers: An International and Comparative Analysis. Oxford. lists the jurisdiction and statutes but no wplibrary access. Examples given are Martin v City of Indianapolis and Felseneiland mit Sirenen (1912) (Germany). However:

The right of integrity is not based on society’s interest in safeguarding artistic property from damage, but rather on protecting the honor and reputation of the creator...Even assuming that destruction is a form of “mutilation” or “other modification,” it does not violate the right of integrity unless it also prejudices the “honor or reputation” of the creator...In practice, the right of integrity is an unwieldy tool to prevent mutilation or destruction

— pp. 299-300

You might also be interested in the "Cultural Heritage Property" section, but the conclusion in 2014 was:

International law does not currently prohibit a private owner from destroying cultural heritage property. At this juncture, it can only be called an emerging trend, not a customary norm or a general principle of law. However, given the rate at which international cultural heritage law has expanded in recent decades, it seems likely that the momentum toward restricting such destruction will continue.

— p. 302

fiveby(zero) 22:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

The idea of heritage/listing systems is to limit what owners can do with their own real estate. See List of heritage registers. On a local level (and not listed in that article) properties in the UK may be in a Conservation area, which has a similar aim. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 20:15, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

This case may be of interest, though in the end nothing came of it. Matt Deres (talk) 20:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

In the UK we have the concept of a Listed building, which restricts what changes can be made to certain houses and other constructions. A famous recent case was a pub called The Crooked House, which burned down in suspicious circumstances; the owners were ordered to rebuild it in its original form. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Spanish Consistory

The article section Fandango#Condemnation_and_liberation_by_Spanish_Church mentions a Consistory as a Spanish ecclesiastical authority, but the link is to Consistorium, which was a feature of the Roman empire. Do we have a more appropriate article to link to? Possibly Papal consistory or Ecclesiastical_court#Catholic_Church Rojomoke (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Rojomoke; from a quick Google and looking at sources like this and this, it seems that an ecclesiastical court is the intended meaning. Alansplodge (talk) 15:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

So amended. Alansplodge (talk) 15:05, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Is Diamond still a featured article?

Hi. I was wondering if Diamond is still a featured article? I doubt it since it was promoted a long time ago, but please let me know. Thank You. 2605:B100:14A:9E08:514F:EF1E:75E0:8084 (talk) 22:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Stop asking. You can check this for yourself very easily. Featured articles have a gold star at the top right of the page and if you hover over it, it will say that the article is at featured status. The talk page will also explicitly say whether an article is at featured status or not. Matt Deres (talk) 23:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

With regard to such questions,

you will find at WP:FEATURED that featured article status persists (even if only honorary)

until an article is deleted or moved from its location (name) 130.74.58.180 (talk) 16:14, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

November 19

Neirab steles and the minor god Shahar

Neirab steles. I was reading an inscriptions book and found reference to them. Our page says they were considered dubious from the start. I imagine they're not consequential enough to have enjoyed a revisitation by the academy, who knows. I think the wear is a bit uneven, the script might be too textbook. My question is about spelling. Is there anywhere else that spelled the god's name שהר? I think it's elsewhere more like שחר. I checked KTU 1.23 for spelling, they gave šḥr and one šhr which might have been a typo.

Secondarily, where's a better place than here to ask this kind of question? Is there one? Neither wordreference forums nor earlywritings forums seem to quite hit the mark for spellings on steles. Temerarius (talk) 02:15, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Funny coincidence, I just ran across a reference to שחר as an herb in Elephantine here note 603. First I've heard of it, and I always keep my ears attuned to this word and its soundalikes due to the canonical cruces.

Temerarius (talk) 03:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC) Temerarius (talk) 03:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

References

In response to your second question, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ancient Near East seems fairly active. Alansplodge (talk) 15:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

November 20

Is it illegal for an American to pay prostitutes for sex

I have been reading CNN post here: https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-transition-news-11-19-24/index.html Where it says "The women said they were paid by the former congressman for sex on that trip, during which they also joined Gaetz at a Fox News studio while he filmed a TV appearance, their attorney Joel Leppard told CNN's Erin Burnett on "OutFront." Gaetz allegedly covered the women's travel costs as well, Leppard said."

But did Gaetz did anything wrong? I am not an US citizen and I don't know if it is illegal for an American to pay prostitutes for sex? Can someone explain. 2001:8003:429D:4100:6501:12DA:18A6:ED8 (talk) 03:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

We have a full article about it here. Omidinist (talk) 04:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

If he paid for their travel from one state to another for the purpose of having sex with him, that could be a Mann Act violation. AnonMoos (talk) 06:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Anyway, before Trump, it wasn't necessary for an American politician to commit an actual crime for their career to be derailed by a sex scandal (see Wilbur Mills etc). That standard still applies to Democratic politicians (see Al Franken and Katie Hill), but Republicans now seem to be rewriting the rules as they go along. (Trump himself is a judicially-adjudicated -- though not criminally convicted -- sexual assaulter.) AnonMoos (talk) 06:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES - 118th CONGRESS - RULE XXIII — CODE OF OFFICIAL CONDUCT says:

1. A Member, Delegate, Resident Commissioner, officer, or employee of the House shall behave at all times in a manner that shall reflect creditably on the House.1. A Member, Delegate, Resident Commissioner, officer, or employee of the House shall behave at all times in a manner that shall reflect creditably on the House.

Alansplodge (talk) 12:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

That rule "is no more" and "has ceased to be". Or maybe it's just "pining for the fjords". Clarityfiend (talk) 12:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

the guy was not even censured,

although,

the core of the republican party is now composed of two-timers, philanderers, 'businessmen doing business',

illiterates, hucksters, snake oil salesmen (Kennedy, Oz, even Trump with his horse tranquilizer) and so on 130.74.58.180 (talk) 16:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

That Oz guy is no relation of mine, btw. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:11, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Prostitution is legal in some rural counties of Nevada, but not in the larger cities. See Prostitution in Nevada. Cullen328 (talk) 17:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

This brings up something important about the legality. Prositution laws are state laws. In one state, it may be illegal to be paid for sex as well as to pay for sex. In another state, it is legal to pay for sex, but not be paid for it. In another state, it may be legal to be paid for sex, but not pay for it. As a state law, a state can allow counties within a state to make their own laws. Therefore, the question is not about the legality of Gaetz paying for sex in the United States, it is about the legality in the specific location it was (reportedly) paid for. But, as mentioned, being legal does not mean being ethical. Many legal actions are not ethical and can be used to censure a congress person. 64.53.18.252 (talk) 22:29, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

There's also the question of what exactly is a prostitute. If a woman happens to accept money, does that qualify, or does it only qualify if it's her primary vocation? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:26, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Women are so much more than just objects for men to screw. But men only have a few brain cells and can’t control themselves around women, and being sexualized is all women know so they let themselves get exploited and think it’s perfectly okay. 2603:8001:C2F0:7D0:807F:7FE4:7205:E54E (talk) 00:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I doubt many of them think it's "perfectly OK", but women are practical. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Women: More than objects to screw. Men: Nothing but objects who screw. You seem nice. And also blocked. --Golbez (talk) Golbez (talk) 06:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

The OP's question is not about ethics or morality or hypocricy or whether or not a woman who sells sex occasionslly should be classified as a prostitute, or whether or not Matt Gaetz committed a crime because he has neither been officially charged with nor convicted of a crime. The question is whether or not it is illegal for an American man to pay for sex. The answer is that it is illegal in many jurisdictions and legal in other jurisdictons. As long as he complies with the local laws, it is legal where it is legal. American men can and do travel to other countries where prostitution is legal but the laws are varied. As pointed out previously, prostitution is illegal in almost all areas of the United States, but there are a few rural counties in Nevada where it is legal, licensed, regulated and advertised. It is only legal in licensed brothels and there are only about 20 of them. So, even in those rural counties of Nevada where prostitution in brothels is legal, it is illegal for a man to connect with a prostitute in a bar or on a streetcorner or even on the internet, except through a brothel's website. But if a man goes to a licensed brothel and follows their rules and regulations, it is legal. I live in California not far from Nevada and love the remote mountains and deserts of Nevada, and have visited Nevada countless times. I have driven past legal brothels quite a few times with my wife and sometimes with my sons. If you take the short drive, for example, from the state capital of Carson City, Nevada to the historic silver mining town of Virginia City, Nevada, you will pass at least two legal brothels, with billboards and parking lots, doing business constantly and legally. Cullen328 (talk) 09:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Tower of David - surviving crusader parts?

Are there any buildings, or parts of buildings, within the present Tower of David that date from the crusader period? And if there are, do we have any photos of them on Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons? Surtsicna (talk) 22:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

November 21

Why is the fictosexuality article protected?

wp:deny
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I wanted to make edits about the pain, suffering, and alienation that they go through everyday, but it’s protected and I can’t edit it. And the teahouse is protected too, so this is the only place I can go. I don’t want to make an account. 2603:8001:C2F0:7D0:807F:7FE4:7205:E54E (talk) 00:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) Replied on your talk page. win8x (talk) 00:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC) Because of your edits. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

November 22

St Austell Western Relief Road, 1980s proposal

I remember sometime in the 1980s (I think the latter half) a proposal for a relief road to the west of St Austell in Cornwall, from somewhere like Stenalees or Penwithick to Sticker or thereabouts. I would be grateful for any information about the proposal, and any reasons for its abandonment. The records of local newspapers on the British Newspaper Archive do not appear to reach a recent enough date. Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 00:34, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Are you talking about the St Austell to A30 link road? Stanleykswong (talk) 14:44, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't know the answer, but Facebook groups are very good for this kind of question. Look for groups called things like Cornwall/St Austell History or Memories. --Viennese Waltz 13:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not the St Austell to A30 link. DuncanHill (talk) 15:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

What does a relief road relieve? Congestion? —Tamfang (talk) 20:06, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes. In this case it was to take traffic off the old Bodmin Road, which is not wide enough in places for heavy traffic, and has the awkward corner outside the General Wolfe. DuncanHill (talk) 13:10, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

As a grockle/emmet more familiar with the north coast around Wadebridge/Trebetherick, I imagine that the A390 via St. Blazey and Lanivery would have been more attractive to the planners than making a whole new bypass just to put more traffic on the old Bodmin road via Bugle and Lanivet. Plus didn't they improve the A39 round Truro to make it easier to get on the A30 at the Carland junction rather than traipse through St. Austell anyway, despite the obvious attractions of Tresilian and Grampound to yer average holiday motorist?[7] The old General Wolfe seems not to be doing too well.[8] You could always ask the planning department at Cornwall County Council in Bodmin... PS Rock Bakery splits and Kelly's ice cream for ever, btw. MinorProphet (talk) 02:38, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Comparing with other South-Western cities and towns, congestion is not too bad in St Austell, so it may not be a high priority for Cornwall government. Stanleykswong (talk) 18:02, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

November 23

Please explain the difference...

...between these 2 movies: (Release date known is not to be taken as part of the difference.)

https://playbill.com/article/broadways-girl-from-the-north-country-will-arrive-in-cinemas-this-fall-watch-the-trailer

https://playbill.com/article/olivia-colman-chloe-bailey-tosin-cole-woody-harrelson-will-star-in-girl-from-the-north-country-film

(The first link has a link to the second link that shows that these are not the same movie.) Georgia guy (talk) 01:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Georgia guy, one of the films appears to be a straight filming of the jukebox musical play as performed onstage in a theater. That filming already happened. The other appears to be a dramatization of the play with its own script and would presumably be filmed in a studio instead of a theater. It is confusing. One wonders why Bob Dylan would approve both films, and if the movie watching audience would welcome two film adaptations of the same jukebox musical. On the other hand, Dylan has been successful for over 60 years, and was just on a national tour with Willie Nelson, Robert Plant, Alison Kraus and John Mellencamp this past summer. One must assume that he and his team know what they are doing. Cullen328 (talk) 03:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

December (Roman month)

Out of each of the days of December, which ones would the ancient Romans have designated as dies fasti, which ones as dies comitali, which ones as dies nefasti, which ones as feriae, which ones as quando rex comitiavit fas, and which ones as endotercissus? That month's article remains the only one whose table lacks such information. (in fact, it didn't even have a table at all until just recently) - MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 02:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Have paged the Pontifex Maximus. Expect a reply Monday. Cheers 2601:481:80:6E60:24B3:C1E8:EA21:72F (talk) 04:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

According to "The Calendar of the Roman Republic" by Agnes Kirsopp Michels, the 1st 2nd and 3rd are "N", the 4th "C", the 5th and 6th "F", 7th through 10th "C", the 11th "NP", the 12th "EN", the 13th "NP", the 14th "F", then there's an alternation of "NP" days (the 15th, 17th, 19th, 21st, 23rd) and "C" days (the 16th, 18th, 20th, and 22nd), while the rest are "C". Of course, that applies to the late Republic period... AnonMoos (talk) 15:28, 23 November 2024

(UTC)

You can see the whole year here:

.

21 December was Divalia, not to be confused with Divali, which falls at much the same time of month and much the same time of year. 2A02:C7B:10C:B100:D07E:B99F:749D:94EF (talk) 18:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Complex Texan language

The question, "Mr. President, they can't make you believe now that there are not some in Dallas who love and appreciate you, can they?" is rather hard to parse, including as it does two negatives and two conditionals. This makes the response—"No, they sure can't"—potentially ambiguous, although unintentionally so. SerialNumber54129 15:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

A tag question is a commonplace construction in many languages, ね?  Card Zero  (talk) 16:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I may be missing something, since I don't see the ambiguity. There are only two potential antecedents for the pronoun they in the response. The first is the occurrence of this pronoun in the question. This is a perfect fit: they can't make you do X — no, [you're right,] they can't [make me do X]. The other potential antecedent is formed by the noun phrase some in Dallas who love and appreciate you. There is no potentiality in the claim some in Dallas love and appreciate you, whether explicit or implicit. If the claimed Dallas-based fans were the intended antecedent, a no response elicited by the claim would take a form as in some love and appreciate you — no, they don't [love and appreciate me].  --Lambiam 20:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

OK, over-focusing on the response perhaps. Cut the tag question and let's stick to "they can't make you believe now that there are not some in Dallas who love and appreciate you", then... SerialNumber54129 20:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm gonna go with Lambiam for once. It's not ambiguous. It might be easy to make a mistake in interpreting, but that's not the same as ambiguous. --Trovatore (talk) 20:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

November 24

Who owns the Tower of the Koutoubia Mosque?

Who bought Tower of the Koutoubia Mosque from Angelina Jolie in 2021? Our article says the details have not been made public, but I reckon the RefDesks can do better than that. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if we can. When people don't want it known that they've bought an £8,000,000 painting they usually keep the secret pretty determinedly. But if you want to try and work it out by elimination I'll give you a start: he wasn't a Belgian. --Antiquary (talk) 12:01, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

UK rivers

Not sure if this the right venue to ask this question. In the UK, where rivers form the boundaries between counties (and countries), are any of these rivers wholly in one county or are they all shared? Does the boundary always lie on one side or the other, or does it always follow the centre line of the river? Thank you. 79.77.181.116 (talk) 16:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Thats a good question. I'm not sure if I can help much, but...

The River Liddle runs almost the length of the England/Scotland border. It starts in Scotland and empties into the Esk just inside the English side. I think that as it originates in Scotland, it belongs to one of the water authorities in Scotland.So in that example it looks like even though its follow the border, it 'belongs' to Scotland. I'm going to look at the Welsh border to see how that works. I'm laying money on there not being a standard answer, 'cos, Britain. (I'm British, I'm allowed to say that). Knitsey (talk) 16:36, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Afon Dyfrdwy (River Dee) originates in Eryri (Snowdonia). It flows towards the Welsh/English border. It follows part of the boundary plus a tributary into the Irish Sea. It looks to mostly belong to Wales, with the portions that flow into England being cared for by Cheshire. There is also Afon Gwy (River Wye) further down which originates in Wales and forms part of the border. It looks like this is manages by Wales. I know this doesn't really answer your question but maybe someone with more knowledge about the subject. Knitsey (talk) 17:06, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

A quick look at a few Ordnance Survey maps shows that the boundaries tend to follow the centre of rivers, or at least the centre of the main course of the river. Alansplodge (talk) 22:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

The OS map shows that the border follow the centre of the rivers Tweed, Liddle, Wye and Dee apart from a few places where the river has been diverted. Management is the responsibility of the regional water authority so the county it 'belongs' to is somewhat irrelevant. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I see. So are all rivers in the UK within a single regional water authority? Or, in the cases where the river is a boundary between two authorities, which one looks after the river? Thanks. 79.77.181.116 (talk) 10:28, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

If you click on the blue link for regional water authority, kindly provided in Shantavira's reply above, all will be revealed. Alansplodge (talk) 12:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Some rivers form semi-natural boundaries between counties such as the River Welland (in this case, Northamptonshire and Leicestershire, where the county border meanders from side to side across relatively straight sections of the river, suggesting that the channel has been engineered.

In England at least, there are 10 river basin districts, and 10 Water Authorities who are theoretically responsible for them, shown on this page. Some are based around the great river catchment areas such as the Thames, Severn, Dee, Humber, etc., other authorities include a number of unconnected streams and rivers flowing eg into the south coast (English Channel) or the east coast (North Sea). These are subdivided into individual Water Management Catchments, shown here. (The River Welland is No. 92 on this map, part of Anglian Water.) These authorities used to be publicly owned, but were sold off and privatised so their foreign owners can pump our untreated shit into the rivers and seas at vast profit to their shareholders. Thames Water, serving about 25% of the country's population, is just about to go bust with debts of £18 billion.[9] MinorProphet (talk) 03:40, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

November 25

How easy will it be for sons of Korean mothers to immigrate to Korea? I'm on the fence between Korea and Rwanda, but I need to find *somewhere* to permanently escape to, to escape Trump's hurtful policies.

I feel similar about America in 2024 as Germans likely felt in 1932. I see a crapstorm coming to all Americans not in the top 1%.

How much easier is it to escape permanently to Korea due to having a Korean mother and a whole family on my mother's side still living there?

I don't choose to post my age, but I'm Gen Y / a Millennial.

I have years of experience as a delivery driver and also hold a CDL. I can also take pictures of products to be sold, type up descriptions, and list them online. I can also be a social media representative.

I can read Korean letters and words and sound them out, but can't comprehend sentences yet. I have Duolingo and can download other Korean language-learning apps.

I have a Bachelor's in Social Sciences and a minor in Leadership.

Trump will not pull US troops out of Korea, will he? (I fear that if he does, Korea may be the wealthier version of Afghanistan and the North Korean military will be your Taliban.)

If my gig on Doordash ends, which it would upon emigrating, my SSDI would rise from $593 to around $1000, since there won't be another income to pull the SSDI down. How well would one survive on $1000/month in Korea?

What 3rd-party delivery driving gig apps are like Doordash, but for Korea? Will it have an English language mode? Do immigrants get to deliver for those apps? What are the typical earnings per day like?

How much do Korean language classes cost for foreign adults to take online or in-person?

What other tips must I know about emigrating to Korea as the son of a Korean mother? What does it take to earn a permanent residency permit? A full Korean citizenship?

What is Korea's national health insurance like, and how much does it cost? --2600:100A:B005:AFD5:B08A:71E6:8521:5D8E (talk) 08:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

This is asking for legal advice, which cannot be given here. Abductive (reasoning) 03:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

The OP is the same one who asked about getting cryogenically frozen while still alive. Maybe they could get the best of both worlds by moving to Antarctica. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

OP, questions like this would be best answered by the (South) Korean Embassy in Washington, or by one of Korea's 13 Consulates in the US (see List of diplomatic missions of South Korea#Americas). That is one of their purposes: they probably have standard information packs. Since the country has the lowest birth rate in the World (see South Korea#Demographics), it is very open to immigration, particularly to people with Korean heritage. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.211.243 (talk) 09:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Rwanda seems like an odd possibility. Can Trump really screw up the US in four years so badly that it is worse than that African nation? That would take real effort, and Trump's pretty lazy. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Help with NPS sources

(No response received at Wikipedia:Help desk, so have to ask here)

Hello,

NPS nomination forms have a section for "representation in existing surveys," as seen here on the bottom of the first page. What does this mean? Does it have something to do with a broader area-wide geographic survey, or a more specific historical site survey? Thanks so much!

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 21:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

• Explained in this guidance document;

It is useful to note whether the property is included in the State Historic Preservation Officer's statewide survey of historic properties; in inventories compiled by Federal agencies of properties under their jurisdiction or control, or in the environmental impact area of their projects; in the Historic American Buildings Survey; the Historic American Engineering Records; the National Historic Landmarks program; or in any other local, State, or private survey. Locating existing surveys can save duplication of time and effort in gathering survey data and in correlating data produced by the current survey with other documentation on the property. It may also be useful to indicate whether the property is a locally designated landmark or is part of a locally designated district.

Abductive (reasoning) 03:51, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

@Abductive

Thank you so much!

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 22:25, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

November 26

Trump's new hires

When filling out his Cabinet and other high offices, Trump is selecting various (current) Senators, Representatives, etc. How do those (soon-to-be) vacancies get re-filled? Thanks. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 08:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

When a U.S. Senate seat is vacated, the governor of that state can appoint a successor, who is sworn in pretty promptly. This is the process that led to a criminal conviction and eight years in prison for Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich who tried to sell the Senate seat vacated by Barack Obama in 2008. As for vacant seats in the House of Representatives, they must be filled by a special election, which is a much more lengthy and risky process. The election to fill the seat vacated by Matt Gaetz will not take place until April 1, 2025, and that seat will probably be vacant for about six months. Cullen328 (talk) 08:23, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

With regard to vacant senate seats, the procedure varies from state to state. In 45 states, the governor can make a temporary appointment, either for the remainder of the term, or until the next election. In the five others, a special election must be held. See here for more details. Xuxl (talk) 15:05, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. So, as Trump picks off various Senators and Reps, how and when is the majority determined in those Congressional houses? And who holds the majority while we wait for these special elections and gubernatorial appointments? Thanks. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 17:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

The majority is held by the party with the most active members on a given day. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:28, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

So, the majority "ping pongs" back and forth? And they select a Majority Senator and Speaker of the House on this "ping pong" basis? 32.209.69.24 (talk) 19:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Membership doesn't "'ping pong' back and forth;" it is set on the day this congress holds its first session. If changes in minority-majority status occur, there can be a call for new leadership.DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 20:17, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

It's pretty rare for control to go back and forth in one session. The 107th United States Congress Senate was the busiest. Congress opened January 3 2001 with 50-50 in the Senate, so Al Gore got the tie-breaking vote until January 20th, when Dick Cheney became VP; but in June Jim Jeffords moved from R to I and caucused with the Democrats, so the Democrats had a majority through the rest of that congress. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 20:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Dissent (sports)

I'd like to add something on this "thing" [10][11][12] on WP somewhere, maybe at Dissent, but I'd like some solid sources to base it on. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Unsportsmanlike conduct. Nanonic (talk) 08:17, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

That might be a reasonable place for it. Would be nice to have a solid source stating that "dissent" is "Unsportsmanlike conduct" though. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

And I see it's mentioned at Fouls and misconduct (association football). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:23, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

who occupies the land of the former Kakhovka Reservoir

There used to be a large body of water separating the Russian military in southern Ukraine from the Ukrainian military in northern Ukraine: the Kakhovka Reservoir. Now that that body of water is mostly land, who occupies it? When I asked a year ago there was no information available; I'm wondering if any is available a year on, now that it's overgrown with thick tree cover for soldiers to shelter under. It's larger than the area of Russia that Ukrainians control, it seems like someone would be trying to occupy it... -sche (talk) 21:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Willows grow fast, but not that fast. After one full growing season, they won't be big enough to find shelter under. Five years from now, they will, but the vegetation will be so dense that a human can't get through. A great habitat for beavers though. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:05, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the Institute for the Study of War's map, it still seems like nobody has advanced very far into the morass. The Russians have only built trenches at the eastern end, and clearly are not worried about a serious Ukrainian offensive across the former Kakhovka Reservoir. Abductive (reasoning) 10:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

There's a story about the former reservoir with a few pictures in The Guardian. Apparently some of the willows are already four metres tall. Any attack across this land would have to make its way through dense and trackless vegetation, then cross a major river, then push through more vegetation to get to grips with the enemy. And not just the combat troops - all their supplies would have to make the same trip. I don't think it's surprising if both sides treat it as no man's land. OTOH, given the ingenuity displayed by the Ukranians so far, I wouldn't bet against them finding a way to pull it off. Chuntuk (talk) 09:29, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

November 27

How much did UPS pay in workers comp claims for heat-related incidents last year? On the flip side, how much would it cost to air-condition their package vans and warehouses?

Did they also pay hazard bonuses for working in the heat?

Is it cheaper for UPS to just air condition their warehouses and package vans?

After paying the initial installation fees for the new HVAC systems, how much will it cost for UPS to run air conditioning and maintain their HVAC systems for one year (at least only when the weather is hot?)

And how much did they pay out in heat-related workers comp claims for one year?

How well will UPS come out ahead from simply air conditioning all places and vehicles that need air conditioned?

--2600:8803:1D13:7100:B100:3170:56F8:999D (talk) 17:24, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

You have linked to a disambiguation page.

Do you mean United Parcel Service?

If so, given that this is a global multinational company, are you interested in their facilities (which include far more that merely warehouses and vans) worldwide, or just in some particular country?

Guessing (with apologies if I'm wrong) that you are interested only in their parcel operations in the USA, answering your questions would require a very detailed and complete knowledge of their buildings and vehicle fleet, as well as (probably confidential) details of figures for their worker compensation payments. I would have thought that only UPS themselves would have access to the necessary information that would enable calculating, for example, the cost of installing air-conditioning in all their warehouses (etc.) in the US. My totally wild and uninformed guess is that this would cost something like $50 million.

Perhaps, however, other responders can contribute insights into these matters. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.211.243 (talk) 19:28, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The most satisfying answer other than - none - is perhaps (UPS): In 2021, UPS employees donated more than one million (community) hours of their time. Last year was 2023 and some information is still available, including a few figures. A succesfull agreement between workers and management led to a situation with comp claims predictably quite low, though, lorry AC upgrade cost could be approximately $3000 per unit but regarding warehouses we need to substract an unknown number of drivers from a total of 340,000 employees. See also https://oshadefensereport.com/2024/10/02/maryland-oshas-new-heat-stress-standard/ , for some forward context. --Askedonty (talk) 22:06, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

November 28

Nudity in US media

Today I discovered something really interesting, but I'm not sure I understand it, so I need to ask a question. How much did social mores about nudity in the media change in the US over the entirety of the 20th century? I'm not talking about the history of fashion, which is fairly well documented, but the use of nudity in newspapers, magazines, television, and film. I recall reading that they changed quite a bit for this or that reason, but I don't remember the precipitating events. Here's why I'm asking this question:

Google hosts a free archive for Life magazine, which I recall being adventurous, experimental, and innovative, but also fairly socially conservative for its time given that it was a vehicle for American advertisers to sell their products and they wouldn't want to upset their readers. Fast forward to today. I was browsing the Feb 4, 1952 issue, when there on page 77 is a woman turned away from the camera, completely naked. For 1952, and for Life magazine, this seems unusual. European readers might be laughing about now, but in the US, the only nudity in the media that was ever allowed, at least from what I recall, was in National Geographic, and I don't even know the history or story behind that, so that's a separate question.

My hunch is that the 1952 photo in Life got by the censors because 1) the photo is used to illustrate an article about art, and in this case, life drawing, and 2) if one isn't looking closely the nude woman looks like a statue, not a real person. Did this photo get by the censors, or was it allowed? The reason I'm asking, is that aside from National Geographic in 1952, I was unaware of nude photos in major American media. There's probably a really interesting history behind this, so if someone knows the answer, I'm all ears. Viriditas (talk) 23:38, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Life Magazine treated art photography as art. Here is a 1948 example. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 04:59, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

It looks like things changed from 1947–1959 during the era of McCarthyism. Am I reading this right? Did the US become more conservative just before the rise of the counterculture in the 1960s? I was completely unaware that nude art photography was ever published in mainstream magazines. And it looks like it became quite liberal in the 1970s, swinging back to conservatism again in the 1980s. I remember in the 1970s there were all these seedy adult movie theaters that disappeared in the 1980s. Then in the late 1990s you had another liberalization occur. And now we're back to conservatism again. Viriditas (talk) 06:47, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Have you read Censorship in the United States? Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:25, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes. There’s nothing about this specific topic, namely art photography in magazines during this time. Viriditas (talk) 17:20, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

See also: Hays Code. 136.56.165.118 (talk) 20:41, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Possibly tangential, but The Pawnbroker (1964) was "the first film featuring bare breasts to receive Production Code approval. Although it was publicly announced to be a special exception, the controversy proved to be first of similar major challenges to the Code that ultimately led to its abrogation." -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:25, 30 November 2024 (UTC)