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Talk:Ásatrú

Latest comment: 8 years ago by Midnightblueowl in topic RfC: Should Asatru and Ásatrú both redirect to Heathenry (new religious movement)?

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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Not all follwers of Ásatrú use heathen as a term, including Stephen McNallen. Stephen A. McNallen, an American Asatru leader, avoids "heathen" because in the "public mind" it means an "ignorant, superstitious, or uncouth person." Stephen A. McNallen. Asatru: A Native European Spirituality. Runestone Press. 2015. p. 2 ISBN 0972029257.--ThorLives (talk) 20:56, 28 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

RfC: Should Asatru and Ásatrú both redirect to Heathenry (new religious movement)?

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Latest comment: 8 years ago12 comments6 people in discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Basic question: Should the Wikipedia articles on Asatru and Ásatrú both redirect to Heathenry (new religious movement)?

More information: At present, the article on Asatru serves as a redirect to Ásatrú, which is a disambiguation page. I would suggest that both articles should be converted into redirects that take the reader straight to Heathenry (new religious movement). In effect, the Icelandic term "Ásatrú", and its Anglicised spelling of "Asatru", are synonyms for a new religious movement that is termed "Heathenry" within the academic literature on the subject. To quote from the (academically sourced, GA-rated) Wikipedia article on Heathenry:

Another name for the faith is the Icelandic Ásatrú, which is more commonly rendered as Asatru in North America; this term translates as "allegiance to the Æsir" – the latter being a sub-set of deities in Norse mythology – with practitioners being known as Asatruer.[1] This term is favored by practitioners who focus on the deities of Scandinavia,[2] although is problematic as many Asatruer worship deities and entities other than the Æsir, such as the Vanir, valkyries, elves, and dwarves.[3] Although initially a popular term of self-designation, usage of Ásatrú has declined as the religion has aged, particularly in Scandinavia.[4]

I believe that this should be a fairly un-controversial change and would like to gain consensus in support of it from various otherwise un-involved editors. Other articles devoted to synonyms for Heathenry (such as Vanatru and Forn Sed) already exist as redirects that take the reader straight to it, and I believe that these two articles should join them. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:11, 27 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

Comments

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  • While the term "Odinism" is commonly used among racialist right Heathen groups, it is also used by those like the British Odinishof who don't. Similarly, while many non-racialist right Heathens use "Asatru", some racialist right Heathens do too. Problematically, there is no cut and dry terminological division between the racialist right and their non-racialist counterparts, no clear distinction between "Odinists" on the one hand and "Asatruer" on the other. Moreover, we have a whole section on racial issues over at the Heathenry (new religious movement) page which explains things in greater depth and which I believe will help to distinguish between the varied political persuasions within the Heathen movement. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:55, 7 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • Merge for sure; these are obvious WP:POVFORKS. I appears that "Heathenry" is both WP:POV (per earlier info copied for reference below) and WP:NEOLOGISM (even more so than Asatru), and is one that is not widely used outside of sources actively promoting the term (a WP:INDY failure). In the end, I think a WP:DESCRIPTDIS is the answer, using a title like Germanic neopaganism (or neo-paganism, however we're spelling that). That's a correct, attested, neutral, precise enough, recognizable enough, and scope-descriptive enough title. The use of "Heathenry" and what it does and doesn't encompass can be covered, along with Asatru and Vanatru, Odinism, etc. I would also merge the American Asatru article in. After that content has been made wiki-sane, then it might be conceivable re-WP:SPLIT an Asatru article off if the main article is too long (and not along nationalistic lines). I'm highly skeptical that the present two (three!) articles can easily be salvaged in situ because they're all clearly pushing conflict, internecine factionalism PoV angles. Frankly, as a reader/editor, it's ridiculous to me that the main article is at Heathenry which fails WP:PRECISE, WP:RECOGNIZABLE, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:NPOV at at once.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  11:47, 11 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • With respect, I believe that a number of statements being made here are simply not correct and will likely mislead un-involved editors who have no familiarity with the subject matter. The claim that the main article on this subject matter is at Heathery is simply false; the main article is at Heathenry (new religious movement). They should not be deliberately confused. Moreover, I see no evidence for the claim that Heathenry (new religious movement) pushes "conflict, internecine factionalism PoV angles". No evidence at all. Indeed, it has been constructed (primarily by myself) through the extensive use of academic studies of the religion in question, and has recently been awarded GA status on the basis of that. Give SMcCandlish's implication that I am a factional POV pusher (assuming bad faith?), I would like to stress that I am not a practitioner of this religion at all, and have contributed to articles on quite a wide range of different religious movements, from the Radical Faeries to LaVeyan Satanism; I have no specific religiously-motivated or factional POV to push but am simply following the example set by the academic sources, which is to use "Heathenry" as the name for the religion in question.
  • Furthermore, the statement that the use of "Heathenry" as the main term to describe the religion fails "WP:PRECISE, WP:RECOGNIZABLE, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:NPOV at at once [sic]" is equally untrue; I have already laid forth the clear reasons for why "Heathenry" is the most commonly used and most appropriate name for the religion and why "Germanic Neopaganism" would be totally inappropriate here, if anyone wishes to examine the arguments in greater depth. Apologies if my above comment comes across as a little too defensive, but I'm not particularly happy about the way that myself and my contributions are being unfairly misrepresented here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:54, 11 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

It's now been a month since this RfC was opened, and all contributors to the discussion have agreed that the Asatru articles should be converted to redirects taking the reader to Heathenry (new religious movement). Accordingly, I shall make the necessary alterations. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:38, 27 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

For reference

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Recent related discussion is transcluded here from Talk:Ásatrú in the United States for reference. – Wbm1058 (talk) 15:31, 2 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

Prior discussion: The Word is Ásatrú, not Heathenry

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Stephen A. McNallen, an American Asatru leader, avoids "heathen" because in the "public mind" it means an "ignorant, superstitious, or uncouth person." Stephen A. McNallen. Asatru: A Native European Spirituality. Runestone Press. 2015. p. 2 ISBN 0972029257.

Likewise,Dr. Michael Strmiska, a pagan who studies the subject, made this observation: "recently I prefer Norse-Germanic Paganism as a catch-all term that covers all relevant bases and slights none."SEE

There has been no consensus for renaming this article. --ThorLives (talk) 01:10, 11 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

This topic has a long history on Wikipedia. You can read an early version in the Nostalgia Wikipedia. Started October 1, 2001. Original title was Asatru.
I asked Midnightblueowl for a link to that consensus, and they pointed me to Talk:Heathenry (new religious movement)#Requested move 25 August 2015, a discussion which moved Germanic neopaganism → Heathenry (new religious movement). Participation there was thin; I see three supports (including the nom.) and one oppose.
Given the 14 year history of this topic having "Ásatrú" in the title, what seems like significantly different usages of "Ásatrú" in the U.S. versus Europe, and the objections above and on my talk page, I'm finding this move to be too bold, and will reverse it. A WP:requested move should be opened here to change this title.
Secondarily to this, there has been recent edit-warring over whether there is a WP:primary topic for Asatru, and if so, what that is. Some say it should redirect to Heathenry (new religious movement), as the broad-topic outline which covers Asatru worldwide. Others believe that it should redirect to this article, as the United States is the place where the term is most commonly used. I don't see any consensus over this, so if you can't form one here, I feel the default should be to put the disambiguation at the base title, or perhaps make it a broad-concept article about all things Ásatrú. I see that there are several of them covered on Wikipedia, including Ásatrú Alliance, Asatru Folk Assembly, Ásatrú Scouting and Guiding, Ásatrú holidays, etc. I know some don't like seeing partial title matches on a disambiguation page, but I don't always mind – or call it a broad-concept to get away from the partial title issue. Wbm1058 (talk) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

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References

  1. ^ Blain 2002, p. 5; Strmiska & Sigurvinsson 2005, p. 128; Adler 2006, p. 286; Harvey 2007, p. 53; Snook 2015, p. 9.
  2. ^ Strmiska & Sigurvinsson 2005, p. 128.
  3. ^ Strmiska 2000, p. 113; Amster 2015, pp. 44–45.
  4. ^ Gregorius 2015, p. 65.
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