Talk:Æthelfrith of Mercia

About the move from Wessex to Mercia

Just a note here in case my succinct explanation for moving this article from "of Wessex" to "of Mercia" came off a little blunt. Except that he was married into the royal West-Saxon family, he might have been a West-Saxon himself for all I know (I haven't done my 'homework'). The fact remains that he was ealdorman of Mercia, or at least the southern part of it.

On a side note, the whole Æthelweard connection seems to me rather dubious, but more on that later. Cavila (talk) 11:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Æthelhelm

@Dudley Miles: Regarding this edit, which you reverted in December, the suggestion that Æthelfrith's father might have been Æthelhelm appears to derive from the article by Lundie Barlow "The Antecedents of Earl Godwine of Wessex" in New England Historical and Genealogical Register, vol. 111 (Jan 1957) pp.30-38. I haven't accessed a copy of the article (Google only offers a snippet view), but the proposal appears to be Æthelhelm -> Æthelfrith -> Æthelstan Half-King and Æthelwold and Eadric, married to Æthelgifu -> Æthelweard The Historian and Ælgifu, where the links are to a tree on Rootsweb that extensively cites pages 33 to 35 of the paper. Harold Godwineson is then claimed as a descendant of Æthelweard.

According to these pages, the familiar evidence quoted to support a connection between Ælgifu and Æthelfrith is the estate at Risborough in Ælgifu's will which was confirmed to Æthelfrith in 903, also Hwaetaedune in her will, which might be the same as Hwituntune confirmed to Eadric in 925. The support for a connection to Æthelhelm is argued on the basis of land at North Newnton in Wiltshire, which was left to Æthelstan Half-King in 946 by Æthelwold (styled "Ealdorman Of Wiltshire" in the Rootsweb tree), which had eariler been granted to Æthelhelm in 892 by King Alfred (S348; VCH). Æthelwold also had another estate in Wiltshire, Ogburn, which he left to Eadric. Various estates are then claimed to have eventually ended up with Harold Godwineson. (see also note on Godwine).

In our article, we also cite to this paper the cryptic comment "however given that an ealdorman Æthelfrith begins witnessing charters early as 883 this would require that there were two successive ealdormen of the same name,[2] for which there is no evidence." Does the comment mean that Barlow is claiming that there were two successive ealdormen caled Æthelfrith? I originally (before finding the pages above) had read the line as saying he was claiming the opposite, which had confused me no end.

There seems no objection to the Æthelfrith of 903 being the same as the Æthelfrith of 883 just on the basis of him being the father of Æthelstan Half-King et al. (I think, but maybe other people have said differently?) But I can see that Barlow would have a problem if Æthelfrith were to be the son of Æthelhelm, because the timing starts looking very tight. If Aethered was born c.845, then would be into the 860s that Æthelhelm was born, and the very end of the 870s at the earliest that Æthelfrith could be born. That's just about in time for him to be claiming replacement charters in 903, but clearly too late for him to be witnessing charters in 883. So this comment about "two successive ealdormen" appears to relate to this theory of Æthelfrith being connected to Æthelhelm, rather than Æthelfrith being connected to Ælgifu, which is what we're currently saying it opposes.

It would be useful to know what more recent sources that have looked at Æthelstan Half-King's family have to say about all this, presumably especially Cyril Hart's 1973 paper, "Athelstan ‘Half King’ and his family" (C.U.P.).

Dudley, you have been looking at a lot of recent material on this period. Have there been many comments on this paper by Barlow and its proposals? Especially this part of it, rather than the later claims about Harold? Jheald (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Some of these issues - but mainly the later period - are discussed in Ancestry of the Godwins. Barlow's namesake, Frank Barlow, discussed Lundie Barlow's paper sympathetically in The Godwins and included a family tree based on Anscombe and Barlow showing Æthelfrith as the son of Æthelhelm. So far as I know, no other historian has read Lundie Barlow's paper or suggested the relationship. As Æthelhelm must have been born in the late 860s and Æthelfrith was active by the 890s it is (as you suggest) chronologically impossible. Hart in his DNB article on Æthelstan Half-King says that Æthelfrith was of royal West Saxon descent but gives no details, and Simon Keynes (see Æthelred, Lord of the Mercians) sees him as an ealdorman of West Saxon origin. I have deleted the last paragraph cited to Lundie Barlow as it is unclear what it is saying (and it gives no page number). Dudley Miles (talk) 12:13, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

It seems that if we do want the paper, the NEHGS's website "American Ancestors" has a scan -- but only available to members, at a cost of over $80/year. Looking closer to home, there may be copies in the UL in Cambridge [1] and Senate House Library in London (significant annual subscription to use the latter). There may also be a copy in the British Library at Ac.5942. [2] -- the holdings appear only to be itemised by year since 1990, but there's a note that says they may go back further. There should also be a copy in Birmingham [3]

I'll try to get a copy of the Cyril Hart paper the next time I am near a university terminal; but you may well be right, that he may not comment on the Barlow paper. (And it looks like Frank Barlow didn't in any detail either -- or, at any rate, Google can't find any instances of "Æthelfrith" in the book).

I do think it's probably something that we should cover in the article, since it is out there on the internet so we shouldn't just be silent about it; and since the Barlow paper does seem to be treated as a citeable source. Not least, it would be interesting to see in that paper how Barlow addresses the issue of Æthelfrith's age in 903 -- it's possible that he might argue for the Æthelfrith of 883 being a different person, but one would need to see whether he brings on any argumentation for that.

I also found this posting at Rootsweb, which adds W. A. Schleicher, "The House of Godwin", Journal of Ancient and Medieval History V (1988) 35 (Torrance CA, available from the Augustan Society). It may not do much more than reiterate Barlow (1957), and from the Rootsweb post it sounds as if it may not look too closely at alternate reconstructions... but at $2 it's not going to break the bank. So I'll look and see if it gives any discussion. (updated) However, seemingly they only send out hard copies, not PDFs, so I don't think I can be bothered with them. Jheald (talk) 22:55, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I have the Frank Barlow book and Æthelfrith is not in the index but he is in the family tree. I may have the Hart paper and if so I can email you a copy. I am very doubtful about discussing Lundie Barlow's views on Æthelfrith, even though he was taken seriously by Frank Barlow at the end of his life. Historians generally regard the Æthelfrith who was Æthelstan Half King's father as one of Æthelred Lord of the Mercians' deputies in the late ninth century, which would rule him out as a son of Æthelhelm. Lundie Barlow was a genealogist not a historian, and if we discussed everything out on the internet we would discuss a lot of nonsense. Dudley Miles (talk) 00:02, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

True. But a little discussion is sometimes the best vaccination against endlessly reverting additions -- and/or people wondering why our article doesn't match what they might be reading somewhere else. Plus, if historians do "generally regard Æthelfrith as one of Æthelred Lord of the Mercians' deputies", it's worth footnoting some examples of people writing that, and what considerations have led to that conclusion. Jheald (talk) 00:14, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

It looks like Barlow also may not have been 100% correct in identifying the estates as well. The land at North Newnton was actually then granted by King Æthelstan to Wilton in 933. (S424; the bibliography on S348 mentions how similar the bounds are). On the other hand, the land left by Æthelwold to Æthelstan Half-King was in South Newton (S1504) -- somewhere quite different, with quite a different history (PASE search). Jheald (talk) 00:58, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree that the article is thin and needs expansion, but Æthefrith was rather obscure and is rarely mentioned by historians. I have added the only other source I know to further reading. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:04, 8 February 2016 (UTC)