Talk:Éric Tappy

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved Tiggerjay (talk) 05:36, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

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Eric Tappy → Éric Tappy. –

• WP:FRMOS, sources In ictu oculi (talk) 02:49, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - Not enough evidence that he uses Éric. Though he was born in Switzerland, his professional career extends across a number of countries, most of which are not Francophone. If he doesn't use the acute accent himself and if English-language writing about him doesn't use it we don't really have a case for the accent. EdJohnston (talk) 13:30, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Ed, not sure I understand this. Éric in French is Éric. What difference does a Francophone person visiting other countries make? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:15, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

He has the right to say how his name is spelled. The only way we would override that is that we see English sources referring to him some other way. For example, immigrants sometimes change their names when entering a new country. A German-speaking person named Erich moving to the USA might sign themselves as Eric. In the case of this opera singer, we can't say, 'He was born Francophone therefore he must spell his name Éric.' EdJohnston (talk) 14:34, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Ed, actually we can say that, and we do say that, this is exactly why we have WP:FRMOS so we don't have to go counting in sources we know have typographical limits to see whether Académie française and French orthography spellings get more or less hits in search engines.

As regards the immigrant analogy singing for 3 nights at Covent Garden doesn't require opera singers to line up as at Ellis Island to be given British-Opera-Names.

As far as French-speaking Switzerland as French-speaking Belgium, the Académie française and strict rules of French orthography may arguably have delayed influence but in general all Swiss-French or French-Belgian Étienne, Élisabeth, Édouard or Érics are both pronounced Étienne, Élisabeth, Édouard or Éric and are spelled as they are pronounced, "Étienne, Élisabeth, Édouard and Éric", while html sources and some newspapers which pronounce Étienne, Élisabeth, Édouard and Éric (and États-Unis) but drop the majuscule accent for historical reasons as a typographic legacy that doesn't change that these are French names. ...and again the individual Étiennes, Élisabeths, Édouards and Érics have no right to demand of the html sources that the accent be present.

In this case whatever sources may do, sources close to Éric Tappy have his name spelled accurately: Théâtre de Grasse has "une production pilotée par Éric Tappy, Patrice Cautier et. Moshe Leiser en 1986" and BCUL RAPPORT ANNUEL 2011 of the Université de Lausanne (his home town) reports Jun 30, 2012 "d'autres en lien avec des évènements locaux (80 ans d'Éric Tappy, 50 ans de l'Ensemble vocal de Lausanne, Festival Sine Nomine, etc.)" i.e. the official town and university celebrations to honour his 80 birthday are spelling Éric Tappy as Éric Tappy. The only exception to this would be if he was not an Éric ['eʁik] but a British [ˈɛrɪk], or Flemish or Swiss-German Erik . In ictu oculi (talk) 15:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

It's good that you found additional sources, though they are all in the French language. We still can't exclude that he has chosen 'Eric' (with no accent) as his professional name when performing for English-speaking audiences. I wonder if you can find any English-language concert programs where his name appears with the acute accent. That would be the best way you could meet the burden of WP:FRMOS, which talks about usage in English. EdJohnston (talk) 15:37, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Ed, they're in the French language because he's French-Swiss and famous in France and Switzerland. Éric Tappy is 81 years old and barely performed for English audiences. If programmes existed from the 1970s they'd be a typesetting universe away from where we are now with www.carnegiehall.org spelling even Czech names like Magdalena Kožená on Her Carnegie Hall Recital Debut 2013 correctly. There's no value in digging around in metal-type era sources from the 1970s in order to confirm that Éric Tappy is the same as every other French Éric.

The burden of WP:FRMOS on usage in English is for names of places (Brittany for Bretagne) not proper names. WP:FRMOS says:

French proper names and expressions should respect the use of accents and ligatures in French.

And

accents should be included in capitals (as required by the Imprimerie nationale and usual in Canada).

This is what en.wp does. When his town is spelling his name correctly for his 80th birthday we would not give preference to Covent Garden playbills from the 1970s. So why hunt for them? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:48, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support per nom's arguments in the discussion above. —  AjaxSmack  23:40, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support – correct spelling of his name. @EdJohnston: I don't know that standards of proof following "We still can't exclude..." have been accepted at Wikipedia. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:13, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support per extensive evidence in sources, encyclopedic accuracy, and many related RM outcomes. --BDD (talk) 16:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.