Talk:Španje

What is this noncense?

How can Spanje be named "Albanian", when they are older than Albanian ethno-name? Spanje predated forming of Albanian nation. And also, old_Balkan population was not Albanian. It was closer to Greeks and Romans, or Tracian, Illyrian, sub tribes. 87.116.148.39 (talk) 22:31, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Article title

@Krisitor: How can they be an Albanian tribe and have their article title being writen in Slavic? Please explain the logic? Kj1595 (talk) 09:12, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

@Kj1595, for several reasons:

- Most, if not all, studies relating to the Španje have been carried out by Yugoslav (Serbian and Montenegrin) researchers, which is why we use this name in Wikipedia because it prevails in scholarship.

- The fact that they are of Albanian origin is far from certain: we only know that they preceded the Slavs in what was Upper Zeta during the Middle Ages.

Please do not make further major changes without consensus. Krisitor (talk) 09:22, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

As far as the article is concerned, they are described as an Albanian tribe. There is no ambiguity in their origin. I will take this over to the main board to have an Admin be involved. Kj1595 (talk) 09:24, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

It is not sure that they were Albanian, check Radovanović for example. Krisitor (talk) 09:38, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Regardless, they are a non-slavic tribe and therefore the article title cannot be in a slavicized form. Kj1595 (talk) 11:24, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

The title should reflect what is used in the literature, whether it is written using the Serbo-Croatian form or not is irrelevant here.

Another example is the Šar Mountains: Šar comes from Scardus, which predates the Slavic presence in the Balkans, and the Šar Mountains are not even located solely in Slavic-speaking countries. But as they are best known in their Slavic form, the Wikipedia article is named after the latter. Krisitor (talk) 11:43, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

You keep saying literature and scholarship but those are all Slavic sources. It's natural for slavic scholars to use slavicized names in their research.

The Šar Mountains article refers to a geographic region which lies mostly in North Macedonia. It's a physical geographic region that presently is part of that country.

When the Spani tribe inhabited the region, there was no Slavic presence as it is clearly indicated in the article that they predated the Slavs. So, there is no Slavic element linked to the tribe. And as such, the article associated with them in the English wikipedia cannot be in slavicized form. Kj1595 (talk) 11:57, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

You keep saying literature and scholarship but those are all Slavic sources. It's natural for slavic scholars to use slavicized names in their research. Not only Slavic sources, but also English (Francis W. Carter (1977) An Historical Geography of the Balkans) or German (Karl Kaiser (1992) Hirten, Kämpfer, Stammeshelden). On the other hand, Shpani is not used in studies, while Spani may appear, but mainly to designate the Albanian noble family of the Late Middle Ages.

In this case, the rule is to name articles after the most relevant name in the academic world. Krisitor (talk) 12:18, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I cannot find any non-slavic sources in english language bibliography of a so called Spanje or Španje tribe. Kj1595 (talk) 12:28, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I gave you one just above... Krisitor (talk) 12:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Show me a link. Kj1595 (talk) 12:33, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I've been patient until now, but I can't do all the work for you. So, appart from the Western sources that I gave you that only briefly mentions the Španje, the fact is that they were mainly studied during the Yugoslav era, hence this name that you want to change because WP:YOUDONTLIKEIT. However, unless you find a bunch of modern studies which don't use that name anymore, it will remain as it is, end of the story. Krisitor (talk) 12:42, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I did the work and cannot find anything from the sources you claimed. If what you claim is true, these sources that mention a Španje tribe should easily show up in search. To really enforce your argument, provide a link of a passage in the book or even an actual page number. Kj1595 (talk) 12:45, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Use Google Books. Now, since you're the one who want to change the title, it's up to you to provide references showing that the name you want to enforce is the most widely used in scholarship. Good luck with that. Krisitor (talk) 12:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

That's what I always use to find sources that I include in my edits. Nothing about a Španje tribe from a non-slavic author shows up. Have you tried doing the same? Kj1595 (talk) 12:53, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 2 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There was no consensus developed through the course of the discussion. The article title remains at its last stable title, Španje per WP:NOCON. A subsequent discussion may be opened to revisit this issue, however it is best if it comes with more supporting evidence than what has been presented here. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 18:42, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

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Španje → Spani (tribe) – User Krisitor (talk · contribs) keeps reverting the title of this article to the slavic form Španje despite the Spani being described in the article as an Albanian tribe, thus the Albanian form Spani (tribe) would logically apply here. Kj1595 (talk) 09:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Polyamorph (talk) 05:41, 2 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans (talk) 18:10, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: We need data from journals and such in English to see what the WP:COMMONNAME in English is. All the sources cited in the article so far are non-English. It is possible that the English-language sources (where ever they are) have near-uniformly adopted the Slavic spelling, in which case we'd probably keep it. But absent any clear common-name-in-English data, I would lean toward supporting this move as most consistent with our usual treatment of demonyms; to override a native one, we have to have a strong showing of a different common-name in English (e.g. Navajo for Dineh).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:56, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

  Good point, but a user moved the page from Shpani to Spanje without consensus. @Krisitor blaking a whole article and moving it without consensus could result in an immediate ban. Not to mention the various warnings you have received from other users. You'll need consensus to change the stable version and explain how those sources seem "unrelated". That's how this works, and I'm sure that that's not new to you. Even if those source were unreliable, that doesn't give you the right to move the name. I see that many tribes of old Montenegro are in fact of Albanian origin, I don't think this one is different but that's on you to prove if you want to uphold your version. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:47, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

  @AlexBachmann Please read the history more carefully before throwing WP:ASPERSIONS, it could result in a ban for you, as I never blanked an article and I didn't rename this one: I reverted the move to Shpani that had been made without consensus. And I've given several arguments for keeping the current name, namely that it's the one that appears in most sources. I'll reply later regarding English sources, as there are in fact a few ones using the name Španje, whereas none use the name Shpani or Spani. Krisitor (talk) 09:58, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  AlexBachmann's reply is indented as if a response to me, but (at least after the first sentence) seems to be directed at Krisitor. I'm not sure I have anything to address in this, other than to say that if someone recently moved this page without discussion, the proper thing to do would have been to take it to WP:RM/TR for an automatic move-back. But as this discussion is now open, and how there are five versions to consider (the current Španje, the original Shpani, the proposed Spani (tribe), and the Špani and Španji mentioned below, all of which should end up at the same page), this RM discussion is going to have to play out. And it's not likely to come to a consensus without actual source work instead of back-and-forth pursuit of a two-editor personality dispute. At this point, it doesn't much matter whether editor A should or shouldn't have done something or editor B is or isn't being too critical. Just put it all away and get to work. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:42, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  The original has always been Španje since the article creation on 2015. Krisitor (talk) 12:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  @SMcCandlish, there is no "native" name that we are aware of. The Slavic form is used be cause the Serbian and then Yugoslavian historiography was the first to study this people and has produced the most academic work about them. Furthermore, the name of the Španje has mostly been kept through the oral tradition of Slavic-speaking tribes from Montenegro, hence the current Slavic spelling. Here are a few sources in English:

  Palavestra (1971), "Folk traditions of the ancient populations of the Dinaric region", Wissenschaftliche Mitteilungen des Bosnisch-Herzegowinischen Landesmuseums, Volume I, Issue B, page 42 [1]: "Remembrances of the Španje or Špani live in our folk traditions over a much larger area than is the case with the Kriči, Mataruge or Bukumiri. The Španje are talked about in Zeta, Lješkopolje, Bjelopavlići, Pješivci and Cuce, as well as in northern Albania as far as Djakovica in Kosmet (Ura e Fshájt - Švanjski most - Španjski most)."

  Carter (1977) An Historical Geography of the Balkans, pages 166-167: [2]: "Some of these groups are thought to be of pre-Slavic origin like the Španje in Zeta who were probably descended from the ancient Illyrians, whilst others were taken from their faiths, e.g. Lutherans, Latins (Roman Catholic) and Jews."

  Keep in mind that the forms Španje and Španji are also used in other non-Slavic sources, such as German ones. And in the end, someone doing his own research, who might discover the Španje though Wikipedia, will get a load of sources by looking for "Španje", "Španji", "Шпање" or "Шпањи", while getting absolutely none from "Spani" appart from references to the Albanian noble family, which might be confusing. Krisitor (talk) 10:42, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not a subject matter expert on this, and a couple of sources are a good start, but more are probably needed. This is ultimately going to be decided based on the sources, not by impassioned heat of argument from either of you. In this particular sliver of time, I would lean toward Španje given that there's some sourcing for it, but that doesn't mean that "Spani" is unsourceable (though Polyamorph and anyone else in favor of it has some catching up to do), and using the Albanian term for an Albanian ethnic group is not a crazy argument, though not an overwhelming one either (we call the Japanese Japanese not Nihonjin).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:42, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  The fact is that it is not certain that these people were Albanians. Most sources say that they were an indigenous people of the Balkans, without further precisions. Hence some suppose that they were of Illyrian origin but romanized, others that they were Albanians. Krisitor (talk) 12:16, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  The article is a mess. You're still edit-warring, if I may remind you. In fact, you didn't provide any source that describes this tribe as Slavic.

  Notice how you completely removed "an Albanian fis" from the lead, put this opinion to the bottom of the article and put "some Albanian scholars consider" before it. If we look at the stable version [1] compared to now [2], one can really see how much the quality of this article has been worsened. And I can't see even one discussion that has been opened by you to establish consensus. Not a single one. Instead, you're reverting me again despite my warnings and those of other users. Consensus is the most basic guideline here. It's the most effective way to prevent edit-warring, but I can't see that here. AlexBachmann (talk) 16:37, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  Google also doesn't give a clear option whether the Albanian or Slavic form is used more often. The results, on both sides, are flawed. I still can't see a source describing it as Slavic, so why should we use the Slavic name? On the other hand, Albanians are native to the Balkans, that's a fact which has never been doubted by any serious scholar. AlexBachmann (talk) 16:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  @AlexBachmann, not only did you not read the edit history carefully, but you haven't checked the sources either: no source refers to the Španje as an Albanian fis, so such a statement clearly can't stay in the lead. In fact, they weren't a tribe as far as we know, that name was given by the Slavs to some of the peoples who preceded them in the Upper Zeta, that's all we know for sure.

  In fact, you haven't provided any source describing this tribe as Slavic. I never said anywhere that they were Slavic, because they weren't, it's all in the lead. Again, read everything before throwing WP:ASPERSIONS.

  The fact that you find the article less clear now is not very kind to my work: the stable version was a total mess without any sections, and no logical links between the sentences. While I've created two sections, Geography and History, and I've tried to clarify the different ideas by grouping them according to a logical link, and I've just added a reference to Palavestra (a very famous Bosnian historian in his time). What I see there is that you don't like my changes because I've removed the "Albanian tribe" mention from the lead. I put the connection to the Spani family at the end because it's only remotely related to the Španje, there's hardly a word about them, instead it is focused on the 14th century noble family. Finally, I would suggest you to read one of the latest articles on the subject, from a Serbian archaeologist, Stanko Jovanović (2021) [3], you'll see that there are many suppositions about the origins of the Spanje and no consensus about them. Krisitor (talk) 17:23, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  Right, you never said they were Slavic, so why use the Slavic name? (That was by the way for my argument regarding the name, I never said that you said this) As you said, there is no consensus about their origin, but the lead suggests otherwise. And I somehow don't see the Albanian name on the lead for some reason. - AlexBachmann (talk) 17:36, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  I will agree to move the page to Spani (tribe). AlexBachmann (talk) 21:35, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

  I've already explained that Španje is largely used in sources, Slavic and Western ones, whereas Spani is barely used at all. What better argument do you want than that? Krisitor (talk) 23:29, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

  There is still no evidence to prove that the Slavic form is more common than other forms, due to the fact that the results (Google Books) on both sides are flawed. Therefore the Slavic name is unnecessary, as you stated "never said anywhere that they were Slavic, because they weren't". So let's agree on the neutral form "Spani" rather than Albanian "Shpanet" or so. AlexBachmann (talk) 00:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

  This is not a neutral change and I don't agree with it because the form "Spani" is used in sources regarding the Albanian Spani family for the Late Middle Ages, but not for the medieval people known as the Španje. You should not confuse both, and the reason why the other editor wanted to rename this article might have come from such a confusion. FYI, the Spani family from the 14th and 15th centuries might be related to the Španje, this is in fact supported by several scholars, Slavs as well as Albanians (I will add a Yugoslav/Croatian source from 1984 that supports this theory), but still, the name Spani is never used in academic sources to refer to the people. You haven't checked Google Books or Google Scholar properly, as there are many sources using Španje or Španji and even more using the Cyrillic forms Шпање and Шпањи. Krisitor (talk) 13:23, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

  Results on Google Books are extremely flawed and you'll need complicated methods to prove that the name is indeed more common than the Albanian one. If you (somehow) do manage to count every single book that actually refers to the tribe, please enlighten me. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:13, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.