Talk:CHOBA B CCCP

Requested move 14:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Choba B CCCP. A strong consensus exists to move, a very weak consensus chose this title. While sources are required to overturn WP:UE, they were provided (primarily by Obi-Wan Kenobi) but were, to say the least, not exhaustive. A second move request would not be out of line. Nevertheless, the title in the Cyrillic script is emphatically rejected. Moved. Red Slash 10:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

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Снова в СССР → ? – Choba B CCCP (album) or Back in the USSR (album); none of the references used in the article use the cyrillic "Снова в СССР", they use "Choba B CCCP", all Latin Letters. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 14:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Also note previous discussion of this title here and several discussions of a similar case at Talk:Концерт. —  AjaxSmack  14:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support move to Back in the USSR (album), per "use English". Apteva (talk) 19:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• support move to Choba B CCCP, as that's what reliable sources use. Actually use-english would have us transliterate, which would give SSSR - but rs dont do that, most i found including the artists own website called it "choba" which is a sort of bastardized transcription but its an album title, so we should stick with it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:09, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support move to Choba B CCCP. This is how the album is referred to in English-language publications, and per WP:UE, "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage", and "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, such as Greek, Chinese, or Russian names, must be transliterated". I know this isn't the true transliteration, but this is most familiar to English-language users. Even McCartney's own website refers to it as this.[1] --Rob Sinden (talk) 07:54, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Choba B CCCP. Considering sources use it. However my vote would be more grounded if more sources were presented in the article.Lucia Black (talk) 10:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• Bemused sorry, I realise that this RM may be fallout from the ongoing discussion with some editors objecting to 李 being included in Li (surname 李 "plum") and 栗 in Lì (surname 栗 "chestnut") which must become Li (surname __ "plum") and Lì (surname __ "chestnut"), but this RM seems bizarre. We're not allowing 李 and 栗 to appear as multiple disambiguation in brackets, but we're arguing about whether the "B" in Choba B CCCP should be capitalized? Which real readers exactly are we trying to serve with these RMs? In ictu oculi (talk) 12:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support alternatives: Russian transliteration Snova v SSSR or English translation Back in the USSR (1987 album) per WP:UE. Choba B CCCP is not a transliteration, since "c" is actually an "s", "h" is an "n", "b" is a "v" and "p" is an "r". Personally, I think that the transliteration is unnecessary, since a direct and unambiguous translation is available.--Forward Unto Dawn 12:28, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support "Back in the USSR"; categorically oppose "Choba b CCCP". Blind transliteration is actually antithetical to our guidelines, despite what the summary of COMMONNAME states. PaulMcCartney.com states "Choba B CCCP, the Russian translation of Back In The USSR"; this was an album sold in Russia and named after a song (translated into Russian); this directs that we should use the common translation/back translation of "Back in the USSR". Personally, I'm fine with "Snova v SSSR", as it's a correct transliteration, but that would be unless there was an accepted English version. (As an experiment, go on Google Translate and enter both "Snova v SSSR" and "Choba B CCCP"; one translates, one doesn't). Sceptre ^(talk) 22:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I completely agree this is a bastardized transliteration, but it doesn't really matter because that's what sources call it - by a huge margin. It just so happens that people typing on english keyboards can easily type Choba B CCCP, perhaps not realizing that they aren't really typing russian letters but roman siblings. And as much as it might offend our sensibilities and irritate Russian-speakers, the fact is tons of english-language sources refer to this album in exactly this way, using roman characters. I suppose it's his fault for releasing an album without an "official" roman-character-english name. WP:AT is rather mum I believe on translation of the titles of works of art. Snova v SSSR would be terrible, as very few sources (if ANY!) refer to it in that way. In a way, you might consider "Choba B CCCP" as similar to "Peking" - an anglicization that has become part of the lingua franca. Back in the USSR (album) would be a second choice, but seems to be used by many fewer sources, and if we have a very common, english-language name for an album, why not use it?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:05, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it's insulting to blame McCartney for not releasing a live album promoted to a Russian audience under a Russian name with an English title. Hell, the typo in the later English release, in case the sources that discuss it as being "Russian for Back in the USSR", only points more to it being Russian. WP:COMMONNAME says that we shouldn't use inaccurate names, and WP:UE says that if we have an accepted translation, we use it, and the accepted translation is "Back in the USSR". Sceptre ^(talk) 22:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Blah blah blah. Geez it's just a wikipedia article, and it's just a discussion, so take a chill pill plz and stop acting all offended because of an aside. In any case, I'm not sure how it's inaccurate - this is exactly how it's rendered in thousands of sources, including rolling stone and Billboard and allmusic It's no more inaccurate than "Peking", which persists to this day. Normally I'd be ok with a translation for the title of an artistic work, but when the work was re-released in the US, it was released under the title "Choba B CCCP", and then re-released again, under that same title in 2011. Thus, I think it's a classic case of just following the sources where they lead us, and instead of going with a sanitized english translation, we should use what the sources themselves use. As a purist, it bugs me a bit too, and I actually don't mind the cryllic that much, but we do have to draw a line. There are thousands of Russian works that have been re-released in America, but I can't think of any that have been re-released with an anglicized Russian title. So, this is sort of an edge case.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 06:06, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, it is only an encyclopedia, so we shouldn't get bogged down in all these rules about naming conventions leading us down a path of having a title we all recognise is ugly for the sake of it. The American release's cover art actually calls it, transliterated, Snova b SSSR, but is subtitled "the Russian album". I'd place my bets on this, like Billy Joel's Kontsert, actually being called "the Russian album" more often. If there was a time to ignore the rules, this is it. Sceptre ^(talk) 22:23, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support a move to Choba B CCCP (without the unnecessary "album" disambiguator). It's ugly but that's what sources commonly call it in English. The current title and alternatives are borderline original research. —  AjaxSmack  06:05, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Why not move it to just Choba B CCCP as that already redirects back here? Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 14:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2 March 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus obviously. Editors have different ideas of whether this British artist's title should be rendered as Cyrillic or Roman. I agree it's a tough question, and hope that editors will continue to try to find a resolution. (non-admin closure) (if anyone believes I'm wrong, that a reasonable admin would actually see a consensus here, please let me know and feel free to just revert my close.) Dicklyon (talk) 01:22, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

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Choba B CCCP → Снова в СССP – The title just looks wrong when in Latin text. In Russian, it would be pronounced "Snova Veh Es Es Es Err". PikaSka (talk) 00:00, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose WP:AT, WP:UE, MOS:TM -- use English not Russian, use English lettering, not special characters (Russian Cyrillic) ; This is English Wikipedia, so whatever title should be indentifiable and typable by English-only or non-European readers, not just Europeans. The current title (with faux-Cyrillic Latin text) is used in English, as is Back in the USSR (album) as is The Russian Album. -- 70.51.46.39 (talk) 04:40, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support the current title is a monstrosity. A redirect from the cod-Russian current title will still work. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:17, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose, WP:UE. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 21:24, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support. WP:UE? Seriously? In what way is "Choba B CCCP" English? The title art shows clearly what the album is called, and it has Cyrillic letters with no common English transliteration ("Snova v SSSR" would be closest, but that's not in common usage AFAIK). The current title just makes us look ignorant, like we think Russian letters are Latin letters or something. And it's the opposite of MOS:TM. Just as we *don't* say "Toys Я Us", because the R is not meant to be Russian, so we *do* use Cyrillic letters here, because it is Russian. Of course, the current will remain as a redirect.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:47, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
  • The proposed Cyrillic title fails WP:UE since it isn't used in most publications about this album. The proposed Cyrillic title fails WP:AT since it uses special characters that are not English, and not related to Latin lettering. The proposed title fails WP:TM since it uses non-English lettering as a gimmick, much like a certain other English language album recorded in Hong Kong that uses Chinese characters for its album cover. And ti fails WP:UCN since English speaking people don't type this, thus failing WP:OFFICIALNAME using official names for no reason other than that they are official is not what is done. As for how "Choba B CCCP" is English, if it is written in English language sources that way, then it is English, since it certainly isn't Cyrillic. "CCCP" is frequently written that way in English even if it should be transliterated as "SSSR" or translated as "USSR" ; at any rate, it is frequently called "Back in the USSR" which is completely in English -- 70.51.46.39 (talk) 04:52, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support. WP:UE would say to make the title Back in the USSR, so it should either be there or at the actual name, Снова в СССP. Choba B CCCP isn't English just because it uses Latin letters, plus it looks silly. There are plenty of articles that use accents or other characters which are not on a standard English keyboard; that's what redirects are for. PaulGS (talk) 04:00, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support per Amakuru. The current title is downright ignorant, and almost anything else would be less embarrassing (Snova v SSSR, Back in the USSR, and even CHOBA B CCCP suggested at WT:AT#Cyrillic_letter_titles would at least suggest that we acknowledge the cross-language pun). No such user (talk) 08:29, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support move to Snova v SSSR or Back in the USSR Either transliterate the name properly, or translate it into English.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:55, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Though an argument for English translation or proper transliteration can be made, the fact is, this album's title is not in English, and the current faux-Cyrillic looks ignorant, bluntly. If we were to apply WP:UE strictly, we'd use the translation, not the faux-Cyrillic. Those arguments are factually invalid. But the fact is, the album's title is in Russian, not English, so might as well leave it in Russian, properly rendered. oknazevad (talk) 17:39, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support move to Snova v SSSR or Back in the USSR per WP:TRANSLITERATE. Choba? baaaahhahahahahahaaaa! ha! ha! ... ha? is this Chobits with sheep? lel. Goldenshimmer (talk) 20:27, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose proposed move. The current title "CHOBA B CCCP" (but for the lowercasing of "CHOBA" to "Choba") appears to me to precisely match the album art, on both the front and back sleeve. So, it may look silly, but we only "look stupid" to the extent that the album sleeve itself looks stupid. What am I missing? Because "CHOBA" is not an English word that I'm aware of, we shouldn't convert it to lower case as if it was, because we aren't "using English" other than forcing what we see on the cover ("CHOBA B CCCP") to be English, we should either leave it as is or actually translate it to Back in the USSR (album). I don't think either the current title using lowercase or the proposed title are acceptable. The original discussion about the title asked "How do anglophone fans pronounce the album's name?" – my answer is "Choba bee, see see see pee" because, per "use English", that's the only way I know how to pronounce it. We can't properly lower-case the title, because our "normal" character set doesn't have anything to approximate lowercase Cyrillic. If CHOBA B CCCP, the original title before December 2005, isn't OK with everyone, then maybe we can agree to punt to Use English: Back in the USSR (album), a redirect created back in February 2006, which the article has yet to be moved to. As soon as we start down the path to use Cyrillic or something that does not look like what we see on the album cover, I think we get into trouble. Just because Billboard and allmusic look silly (which is what led us to the current title) doesn't mean we have to. – wbm1058 (talk) 05:07, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose proposed move. The Cyrillic characters would make this title incomprehensible to the vast majority of English readers. I'd also oppose the alternative suggestion of Snova v SSSR as this form is very rarely used.[2] The present title Choba B CCCP may not be good Russian, but as was pointed out by several people in the previous RM, it is in fact well established in third party sources on the subject. See, for instance[3][4][5][6][7][8]. Back in the USSR is obviously not available. To my mind, acceptable alternatives would be The Russian Album[9] or Back in the USSR (album)[10].--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:40, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

  @Cuchullain: And it's, like, comprehensible when written as "Choba B CCCP"? No such user (talk) 11:47, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

  You can at least sound out the letters when it's in Latin characters.--Cúchullain ^t/c 11:57, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

  Well, you can do the same (which is the source of the visual pun) with Снова в СССP, don't you? Visually, it looks almost identical to {{small caps|Choba b CCCP}} (producing Choba b CCCP). No such user (talk) 13:13, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

In terms of both reading and the search feature, one can piece together the sounds and actually find the article using Latin letters. The Cyrillic characters may as well be cuneiform. I'm also not finding any English sources (or any sources) that actually use the form "Снова в СССP" on Google books or even a regular Google search, which argues very strongly against making it our title.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:54, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

That's a fair argument. As a compromise between recognizability, commonality, and not looking silly, I wouldn't mind all-uppercase CHOBA B CCCP (in Latin), which is also the original title of the article, even if it is maybe slightly against rules, but IAR (the pun only works in caps, anyway, and that's the main beef of several supporters). About 30% of books do use the all-caps version, even in running text, e.g. [11]. Or even, per Wbm1058, down-to-earth title Back in the USSR (album). No such user (talk) 14:29, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with the all caps version CHOBA B CCCP, it seems to be well established in sources and it's what's actually on the album cover.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:46, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to this, either.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:57, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose cyrillic wikis. --Mtherwjs (talk) 14:28, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose using alphabets, characters, symbols, etc. not common to English. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:59, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:UCN. "Silly", "ignorant", "embarrassing" or not, the current title is the common, English name of the album in reliable sources. Also oppose Back in the USSR (album) and Snova v SSSR but am OK with CHOBA B CCCP (in Latin). —  AjaxSmack  00:23, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Move log

• 05:58, 31 December 2005 Curps moved page CHOBA B CCCP to СНОВА В СССР (actual Cyrillic title) yes, those are actually two different titles, though to my eyes they look identical! wbm1058 (talk) 05:07, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
• 13:09, 24 January 2006 Nickshanks moved page СНОВА В СССР to Снова в СССР
• 13:09, 24 January 2006 Nickshanks deleted page Снова в СССР (change of plan) ??
• 13:16, 8 December 2006 Bogdangiusca moved page Снова в СССР to Snova v SSSR (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) "Article titles should use the Latin alphabet, not any other alphabets or other writing systems")
• 09:13, 3 January 2007 Bogdangiusca moved page Snova v SSSR to CHOBA B CCCP
• 15:56, 21 October 2007 ProhibitOnions moved page CHOBA B CCCP to Снова в СССР (WP:CAPS applies -- even in Russian!) so, what's the difference between Снова в СССР and Снова в СССP? wbm1058 (talk) 05:07, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
• 16:51, 17 July 2013 INeverCry moved page Снова в СССР to Choba B CCCP (RM at Talk:Снова в СССР#Requested move)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 18 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to CHOBA B CCCP by Anthony Appleyard, per discussion in this and the following section. No such user (talk) 07:28, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

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Choba B CCCP → Снова в СССР – The Latin text makes it look weird. Cyrillic would make the text easier for people to realize it's Russian, not Gibberish English. That way, people don't pronounce it as "Choba", but as "Snova". PikaSka (talk) 18:18, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The Latin text is fine. I encourage you see the arguments made in the last RM. We can include a pronunciation in the article. MOS:TM also comes into mind when opposing this requested move. CookieMonster755 ^{📞 ✉ ✓} 18:40, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
• Compare discussions in Talk:Kontsert about the spellings Kontsert and Концерт and Kohuept. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:00, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
• (Edit conflict.)~Oppose, but support upper-case version. Why not change to CHOBA B CCCP? There is a consensus forming for that in the discussion above (30 March). It breaks the capital letter rule, but otherwise is true to the album, respects the Cyrillic and is more or less pronounceable in English. Rothorpe (talk) 20:06, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

• Rothorpe, I would support all uppercase, too. CookieMonster755 ^{📞 ✉ ✓} 22:42, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

• Support either Cyrillic or all uppercase. While I would vastly prefer Cyrillic, or the transliteration Snova v SSSR, but I am willing to compromise with all uppercase. The current title, while it may be used in many reliable sources, is still erroneous, and since the alternatives are also supported by [edit: the majority of] reliable sources, I'd opt for one of them.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:29, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
• Support move to Snova v SSSR, per WP:TRANSLITERATE: "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, such as [...] Russian names, must be transliterated. Established systematic transliterations [...] are preferred." Also might be relevant that the policy states, "However, if there is a common English-language form of the name, then use it, even if it is unsystematic" — A few English sources use the current title, but the Cyrillic title "Снова в СССР" has 273,000 hits on (English) Google.com, while "Snova v SSSR" has only 3,530 and "Choba b cccp" has only 29,500, showing the clear preponderance of sources favouring the Cyrillic spelling, rather than transliterating it or erroneously reading it as Latin text. Goldenshimmer (talk) 01:37, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I'd also weakly support all uppercase Latin as a compromise; at least it would be better than the current title. Goldenshimmer (talk) 03:33, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I've been bold and recast the lead with the Cyrillic title and a translation. I still support moving to CHOBA B CCCP. Rothorpe (talk) 03:28, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I've partially reverted this change; as I argue below, the Cyrillic rendition isn't in use for this album.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:56, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

• Strongly support any move away from "Chobbah Bee Cee-Cee-Cee-Pee", the current title is bonkers. CHOBA B CCCP Снова в СССР Snova v SSSR would all be improvements. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:12, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose using the Cyrillic characters as per the various comments in the previous identical move started by the same editor 2 months ago. For one thing, the characters are unrecognizable to most English readers, and for another, this form is used in few if any sources. I've found literally no relevant sources in English - on any other language - that use "Снова в СССР" on Google Books, Google News, and even a regular Google search. Similar, the supposed transliteration "Snova v SSSR" is similarly not present in sources and as such isn't a suitable article title.[12][13][14]
  

Whether or not it's poor Russian, the Latin title "Choba B CCCP" is well established in sources, as was pointed out in the last 2 RMs. For example:[15][16][17][18][19][20] Capitalized "CHOBA B CCCP" should be fine as it's used in some sources and appears on the album cover. Other alternatives present in sources include The Russian Album[21] and Back in the USSR (album)[22]. However, neither "Снова в СССР" nor "Snova v SSSR" are established enough in reliable sources to use here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:54, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, at least we agree that the article title should (or at least could) be CHOBA B CCCP. I thought my new lead summarised it rather well, though. No reason why 'Choba...' shouldn't go in as well, if it's commonly used. Rothorpe (talk) 17:46, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

• Support but if there's not enough consensus for that, definitely +1 for the idea of uppercasing. At least it would look vaguely like the Cyrillic letters it's meant to represent then.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:20, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
• Support uppercase CHOBA B CCCP. I thought we reached a consensus last time that it's at least a lesser evil, and was unpleasantly surprised at the "no consensus" closure. Move it SOMEWHERE, for God's sake! No such user (talk) 12:36, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
• Support move to Snova v SSSR per Goldenshimmer. HandsomeFella (talk) 15:10, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, Snova or CHOBA. But not Choba, because it's gibberish. Rothorpe (talk) 20:08, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose CHOBA, neutral otherwise. Choba isn't gibberish any more than CHOBA is - "Choba" is used by Allmusic and Billboard, it's consistent with WP:Manual of Style, and the Cyrillic version has letters that looks like capital-only and lowercase-only English letters ("H", "B", "a"). "CHoBa" or "CHOBa" would be the closest, but they are not in the sources. Peter James (talk) 21:08, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

The sleeve has in capital Cyrillic: CHOBA B CCCP. That's SNOVA V SSSR transliterated. So CHOBA (which looks much the same in lower case, except for the a) is not in the same high gibberish class as Choba. Not even Wiktionary has a language to claim Choba. Rothorpe (talk) 02:16, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Since this evidently has to be rehashed every few months, I'll copy my previous comments from above...

• Oppose per WP:UCN. "Gibberish", "bonkers" or not, the current title is the common, English name of the album in reliable sources. Also oppose Back in the USSR (album) and Snova v SSSR but am OK with CHOBA B CCCP (in Latin). —  AjaxSmack  02:31, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for directing attention to the green box. Yes, lots of good 'oppose' arguments there. It should never have been changed from CHOBA B CCCP. Rothorpe (talk) 03:14, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name in intro

The name in the intro should generally follow the article title per WP:LEAD. Additionally, as pointed out in 3 RM discussions now, the Cyrillic version isn't widely used in English reliable sources, and the constructed title "Snova v SSSR" isn't used in any sources. Whether or not it's good Russian doesn't concern us, Wikipedia follows what reliable sources say.--Cúchullain ^t/c 04:36, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Naturally the Snova v SSSR transliteration is not widely used, as Wikipedia has rather idiosyncratic style guides. The Cyrillic spelling is, however, widely used in reliable sources, both English and Russian (see Google Books — for ones in English, look for e-book editions, as the OCRed English books don't generally have the Cyrillic text searchable), and per WP:TRANSLITERATE the article title should use the common name (Cyrillic), but transliterated into Latin characters (Snova v SSSR). Goldenshimmer (talk) 05:36, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

We need to go with what's the common name in reliable English-language sources, not what's ostensibly more proper Russian. In this case, the sources, and even the album cover, seem to be using the Latin characters (or other names like Back in the USSR and The Russian Album). If you've found any English sources that use the Cyrillic characters you've done better than me. If search engines aren't even returning hits for the Cyrillic characters it's a strong indication that they're not recognizable to English speakers.

As for Snova V SSSR, here's what WP:TRANSLITERATE has to say on the matter: "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, such as Greek, Chinese, or Russian names, must be transliterated. Established systematic transliterations, such as Hanyu Pinyin, are preferred. However, if there is a common English-language form of the name, then use it, even if it is unsystematic". In this case the unsystematic "Choba B CCCP" is well established, while "Snova v CCCP" appears rarely if ever.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:34, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

WP:TRANSLITERATE is from WP:Article titles. You titled this section 'Name in intro'. Let's get the article title settled first. I still support the all-caps pseudo-Cyrillic for that, as it matches the sleeve, no matter how you read it. Rothorpe (talk) 15:52, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

The WP:LEADSENTENCE should generally match the article title.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:55, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

If you're using the lead sentence to support your preferred form of the article title, then why do you revert when the lead sentence is changed away from your preferred title? That seems like circular logic to me... Goldenshimmer (talk) 20:13, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand your point. I reverted back to the version that follows the article title. The versions it was changed to are not the article's title, and shouldn't be, as they're not established in English sources.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:37, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Sources for courses. They got it wrong, dammit! Must we promote ignorance? That said, we could start with a concession: 'Often referred to as "Choba B CCCP", ...' That would, it seems, be true. Rothorpe (talk) 02:51, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Oh, thanks for clarifying. I thought you were arguing to have the title match the lede, rather than vice versa. Goldenshimmer (talk) 02:57, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

I suggest: 'Often rendered as "Choba B CCCP", Снова в СССР, literally Back in the USSR (also known as The Russian Album) is the seventh...'. With CHOBA B CCCP as the article title. Rothorpe (talk) 13:11, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

If no one objects, i'll make this edit tomorrow. Rothorpe (talk) 02:09, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

No objection from me, as it would be a distinct improvement over the current situation. (I still think that Snova v SSSR would be a better title, but I like your solution even so.) Goldenshimmer (talk) 05:09, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Done. But I was unable to capitalise the article title. Rothorpe (talk) 01:28, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't see the need to include "Often rendered as", per WP:LEADSENTENCE. Articles are about subjects, not titles. "Snova v SSSR" shouldn't be included, as it gives the impression that this is a usual rendering, and it's been pretty clearly established that it's not. And finally, the title shouldn't be capitalized unless the article is moved. My suggestion is: "Choba b CCCP (Снова в СССР, literally Back in the USSR, also known as The Russian Album) is..." If the article is moved to a capitalized title, the text can be capitalized, and if it's moved to the Cyrillic rendering they can be flipped.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:42, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

We probably should also include Template:lang-ru.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:48, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, let's get it moved. Anthony Appleyard, can you move this to CHOBA B CCCP, please? Or to the Cyrillic? Rothorpe (talk) 02:26, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

• @Rothorpe, Cuchullain, and Goldenshimmer:  Done Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:17, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Italics

Rothorpe asked at my talk page about where does the MoS say there should be no italics for Cyrillic. That would be MOS:BADITALICS, Text in non-Latin scripts (such as Greek, Cyrillic or Chinese) should not be italicized as non-English, even where this is technically feasible; the difference of script suffices to distinguish it on the page. However, it does say in the sequel that However, titles of major works that should be italicized are italicized in scripts that support italics, where this title also fits, so that would be my bad. Feel free to revert – although I'd argue for a slight IAR here: I think that italics hinders readability, glyph of that italic т (т) really comes as a surprise for the uninitiated. No such user (talk) 11:42, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I think itallics are appropriate, as album titles are italicized. Perhaps we could handle the readability issue by adding « and » as is done in the Russian version of Rite of Spring.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:18, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps as it's an anglophone album—a special case, and there are no Ms or Ts, and the article title is in italics and is intended to look like Cyrillic... Rothorpe (talk) 13:42, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

We have already (consciously) IAR-ed with the title, which arguably violates MOS:CAPS. How about a creative solution of ''{{Small caps|Choba b CCCP}}'', rendered as Choba b CCCP? To me it looks aesthetically pleasing, satisfies MOS:ITALICS, and matches the article title (rendered in Latin, remember). No such user (talk) 13:49, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't think so. The first mention ought to follow the article title, which is in caps (and "CHOBA B CCCP" does appear in sources). It also doesn't solve what to do with the Cyrillic version, which still needs to be marked in some way to indicate it's the title of a work.-- Cúchullain ^t/c 14:02, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Italicizing Cyrillic aside, are you OK with replacing the instances of "Снова в СССР" in the text with CHOBA B CCCP throughout the article? In that way, we would use consistent spelling as in the title. No such user (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, except where the cyrillic form is specifically intended (ie, in the lead sentence's parentheses and one reference in the "Title and album cover" section). However it looks like that's pretty much done.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:34, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Small caps

How about using latin small caps (e.g. CHOBA B CCCP)? ‑‑Yodin^T 17:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I think that was one of the proposals, but the consensus was against it.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:20, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

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Requested move 12 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There's a rough consensus to leave it where it is. Andrewa (talk) 04:34, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

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CHOBA B CCCP → Snova v SSSR – Per precedent at Kontsert. The current title is a misspelling — the title of the album is not in Latin script, but actual Cyrillic Russian Снова в СССР, so it should gen moved either there or to its transliteration (the latter is preferred by Wikipedia standards), and certainly not remain at the current title. � (talk) 14:38, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Check your LP again, the Melodiya release, the title is CHOBA B CCCP, not «Снова в СССР», and not Snova v SSSR. That is also it how it is commonly known. Article titles should be precise, matching the title of the work in question. Works can be titled however the artist wishes and issues of spelling and grammar fall under artistic license, so it is The Compleat Beatles, not The Complete Beatles, Odessey and Oracle, not Odyssey and Oracle, "Must of Got Lost", not "Must Have Gotten Lost". Piriczki (talk) 15:26, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support a move the current title is simply wrong per WP:CAPS. Either have Снова в СССР (the editor above is confusing typeface with actual acronyms). If the the album had typeface AGAIN IN THE USA, we would have Again in the USA, per en.wp MOS. Or have Snova v SSSR either way a move is needed. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:04, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:CAPS shouldn't it be Choba b CCCP then? The album title was not written in Cyrillic as it was not intended for release in the Soviet Union. Piriczki (talk) 13:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Piriczki, where are you getting these ideas from? In ictu oculi (talk) 21:03, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

• Tend to oppose. The current title was reached as a compromise after several long and hard rounds of discussion, all prominently visible above, with the rationale that it was the least bad of the alternatives. I wish the nominator had indicated awareness of those discussions. I don't think that there's even such a thing as a precedent for a cyrillic-title-commonly-rendered-in-latin, let alone that there should be a rule for it. The current title is a WP:IAR, it reflects usage in sources, let's leave it at that. No such user (talk) 14:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. As before, the current title is the WP:COMMONNAME in English sources, while the proposed title is not in wide use. See Google Books [23] vs. [24] Wikipedia articles follow what the sources use, not what's ostensibly more technically proper. Additionally, the album title is not in fact in Cyrillic script, it's in the Latin letters "CHOBA B CCCP". English sources also typically use that form rather than the Russian "Снова в СССР".--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:35, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per usage in a preponderance of reliable secondary sources. Dekimasuよ! 18:35, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Number of tracks at the sessions…?

The article says that 20 songs were recorded at these sessions; information about the forthcoming (as of May 2019) remastering of McCartney’s live albums issued by his social media presence states that there were 22 tracks recorded. The new remaster will be of the 11 track Russian original. Jock123 (talk) 11:07, 28 May 2019 (UTC)