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Talk:12th Armored Division (United States)

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WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

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Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. --dashiellx (talk) 15:00, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

New section or article: 12th Armored Division Association, Museum, newspaper

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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

After deactivation of the Division in 1945, an Association of former members of the 12th AD was formed which is still in existence today, still holding annual meetings although many of the original soldiers are above 90 years old. Would adding a section on the Division Association, reference to the 12th Armored Division Memorial Museum in Abilene, TX (mentioned on the Abilene Wikipedia page) and to the Division newspaper which is still published monthly, be apropos in this article, or since they all deal with events following the official deactivation of the Division, should a new article be created? — Preceding unsigned comment added by N0TABENE (talk • contribs) 19:56, 24 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

"Hellcat" Nickname

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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The article states that "The 12th was nicknamed the "Hellcat Division" for its ferocious advance across southern Germany." N0TABENE (talk) 14:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC). However, the Division's official history states that "In early 1943 the commanding officer held a competition to come up with a distinctive name for the division. Private Francis Beckman submitted the winning entry, earning a three-day weekend. His choice--The Hellcats--became the nickname for the 12th Armored Division." ([1]) This was over a year before the 12th entered combat in Oct. 1944 so the comment that the nickname came from the rapid advance across Germany cannot be accurate. In addition, the Division's newspaper, titled "The Hellcat News" began publication in Camp Campbell in 1943 prior to the Division being sent to Europe, so they could not have been named for events that occurred during their push across Germany in 1945. N0TABENE (talk) 14:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC)N0TABENEReply

References

  1. ^ Ref: http://www.12tharmoredmuseum.com/timeline_02_04.asp

History Section

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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is an overemphasis on a single regiment (56th Infantry Regiment) which became one infantry battalion among 12 other active battalions within the 12th AD. If the 12th Armored Division was not activated until 12 September 1942, the 56th Regiment could not have been assigned to the (non-existent) Division on 7 July 1942. The entire history section needs to be rewritten to provide more balanced and accurate history of the entire division. The history section does not follow proper English grammar -- this appears to be an outline, rather than a proper Wikipedia entry. The history section seems to be lifted verbatim from the Wikipedia entry for the 56th Infantry Regiment. N0TABENE (talk) 18:49, 31 January 2015 (UTC)N0TABENEReply

African-American Soldiers in the 12th Armored Division

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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The article does not mention the African American combat soldiers that were part of the 12th Armored division. Only 2 Armored divisions and 8 Infantry divisions were integrated out of a total of 91 divisions that saw active combat during WW2. One of the black soldiers N0TABENE (talk) 13:27, 1 February 2015 (UTC)who was in the 12th AD received the Medal of Honor, Sgt. Edward A. Carter, Jr.[1] N0TABENE (talk) 18:58, 31 January 2015 (UTC)N0TABENE N0TABENE (talk) 13:26, 1 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ http://www.historynet.com/african-american-platoons-in-world-war-ii.htm


Replaced Erroroneously Deleted photo of African-American 12th Armored Division soldier

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Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

This photo is problematic as a 12th Armored Division soldier. Regardless of how it might have been cited in the original source, it is inaccurate. The American soldier is, to use the Army expression at the time, "colored." He does appear to be in tanker's uniform though. Could therefore be 761st Tank Battalion or 758th Tank Battalion, both of which were designated "colored" units and served with distinction in Europe. The forest of tall trees is more likely to be northern Europe than Italy, so my money is on the the 761st.Bilhartz (talk) 22:35, 3 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Bilhartz erroneously deleted the photograph from the 12th Armored Division entry of a soldier guarding surrendered German soldiers, questioning the accuracy of the original source. The original photograph is from the collection of the United States National Archives, National Archives Identifier: 535840, http://research.archives.gov/description/535840, from Group 208 of the Records of the Office of War Information, 1926 – 1951. The original caption reads “A Negro soldier of the 12th Armored Division stands guard over a group of Nazi prisoners captured in the surrounding German forest, 04/1945”. The 12th AD had African-American soldiers in companies permanently attached to the 17th, 56th and 66th Armored Infantry Battalions beginning in March 1945, and in April when the photo caption indicated the images was taken, the 12th AD was fighting in Bavaria, renowned as a forested region (Bayerischer Wald http://www.bayerischer-wald.de/). Large numbers of surrendering German troops were being captured in April 1945 (The 12th AD captured over 7 times its own strength in enemy prisoners of war). The photograph and caption entirely comports with U.S military and Divisional history official accounts, and was therefore replaced within the Wikipedia article.

N0TABENE (talk) 20:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)Reply

error

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Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Under "Order of Battle" near the bottom of the page, "92nd Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron, Mechanized" is named, but no mention is made of the 101st Cavalry group (Mechanized), which consisted of the 101st and the 116th Cavalry Squadrons, which was attached to the 12th Armored Division from 8 April 1945 to 4 May 1945.

The 101st Cavalry group (Mechanized) or the 101st and the 116th Cavalry Squadrons should be added to this "Order of Battle" list.

Following the war, the 101st Group was inactivated on 25 October 1945 at Camp Myles Standish, Massachusetts., reduced in strength to one squadron, and subordinated to the 42nd Infantry Division. 1-101 Cavalry was disbanded in August of 2006. 2-101 is all that remains and is headquartered in Buffalo, NY.

See references:

[1] [2] [3]

RuJB12 (talk) 06:12, 8 April 2015 (UTC)Reply

This is not an error. There is a difference between a permanent core battalion, a temporarily attached unit (such as the 101st Cav Gp), and a support unit such as the 549th Light Ponton Engr. Bn. which was never an attached unit. According to the actual U.S. Army canonical records [4][5], the official 12th AD Museum [6] historian and all of the references you provided vide supra, the 101st Cav Gp. was NEVER permanently attached to the 12th AD. The 101st Cav Gp was temporarily attached to the 12th AD [7]. Ergo, I am removing the erroneous unit from the Composition of the Division and adding a section with Attached Units per the U.S. Army Historical Archives. Regards,N0TABENE (talk) 21:45, 15 April 2015 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ http://1-101cav.tripod.com/ww2.html
  2. ^ http://www.louisdimarco.com/101stcavalry.htm
  3. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_Cavalry_Regiment
  4. ^ http://www.history.army.mil/documents/ETO-OB/12AD-ETO.htm
  5. ^ http://www.unithistories.com/units_index/default.asp?file=../units/12th%20Arm.Div.asp
  6. ^ http://www.12tharmoredmuseum.com/organization.asp
  7. ^ http://www.unithistories.com/units_index/default.asp?file=../units/12th%20Arm.Div.asp

Note on Veterans section

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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The Veterans section was renamed "Notable Veterans" since several edits have been made adding names of people who may or may not have served in the 12th Armored Division. There were 17,000 soldiers who fought with the 12th during World War 2, and all 17,00 cannot be listed in this article. The list is available at http://www.12tharmoredmuseum.com/members.asp and is clearly referenced. All of the veterans listed in this section of the Wikipedia article have separate articles on Wikipedia. N0TABENE (talk) 18:19, 2 June 2015 (UTC)N0TABENE (talk) 14:31, 8 June 2015 (UTC)Reply

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