Talk:15th Infantry Regiment (Greece)

4th Infantry Brigade

I've decided to include the activities of the old 4th Infantry Brigade in the History section to give context to the formation of the XV Division, as well as add citations. Dragases (talk) 10:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

15th Infantry Regiment (Greece)

With more detailed information now available from reliable sources (cited in the article), I recommend the page be renamed or moved to 15th Infantry Regiment (Greece) to reflect the official reorganization. I confess, it's been a while since I modified any pages here, so I'm not comfortable doing this. If anyone reads this and can do it, great (and Thanks!). Dragases (talk) 06:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

First off, thanks for your expansion of the article. Second, I can do the move, but my question is: a) has the brigade been officially renamed as a regiment, or does it retain its name but with regimental size, and b) was there not already an unrelated 15th Regiment? If so, then we should split this article into three: one for the 4th Brigade/15th Division, one for the 15th Brigade, and its current role would be merged into an article on the 15th Regiment. Constantine ✍ 07:47, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

There was an unrelated 15th Regiment in the Hellenic Army (disbanded many years ago), so I refrained from making any significant changes to the article until I had some solid information (I'm not in Greece, so I'm limited to online searches). The citation I provided gives an indication that it was to be renamed, but this confirmed it - http://www.newsbomb.gr/ellada/ethnika/story/420777/paradosi-paralavi-dioikiseos-toy-15oy-syntagmatos-pezikoy-xv-mp. I've not put this citation into the article (feel free to do so). Dragases (talk) 07:57, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

OK then, I'll have to consider how to best do this, I'll see if there are similar cases elsewhere. Constantine ✍ 07:58, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Much appreciated. I'll try to dig up some information on the disbanded 15th Infantry Regiment. Perhaps that will give us something to go on... Dragases (talk) 08:11, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I've made a query at MILHIST to elicit some more opinions, as there appears to be not clear practice in this regard. Constantine ✍ 12:03, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm probably the military unit and formation specialist, and have answered at length on the main talk page. This unit should be moved to its most recent title, per MILUNIT. THat's the 15th Inf Regt. Now the 15th Inf Regt has previously been active. So the 15th Inf Regt has been formed twice (or three times, or whatever). Set up two separate sections in the article, with descriptive headers (World War II, or Cold War, or Twenty-first century, or whatever) and keep the two or more existences separate. Make sure there are lots of redlinked cross-references to the units that originated them (brigades, divisions, or whatever). Does that help? Cheers Buckshot06 (talk) 03:46, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

In essence, Constantine's suggestion of 07:47 26 July above is correct, with lots of cross-references. The resulting articles may be stubby and short for a while, but will grow in time. Buckshot06 (talk) 03:50, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

OK then Dragases, in light of the above discussions, I propose that we move the present article to 15th Infantry Division (Greece), to which also the 4th Infantry Brigade (Greece) should redirect for now, this can be expanded later. Then we split off the final portions as the 15th Infantry Brigade (Greece), with 15th Motorized Infantry Brigade (Greece) redirecting to it, and a new article on the 15th Infantry Regiment (Greece) covering the two different establishments. If you are willing, we can then start applying the same principle on the other Greek Army unit articles we have. Constantine ✍ 19:14, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you both. The Greek Army unit articles have been without references for ages, which was a major issue - that you're fixing!! Also, in line with WP:MILMOS#UNITNAME (third paragraph), designations should follow the local convention. All Greek division designations are Roman numerals (eg XX Armoured Division, not 20th Armoured Division). Feel free to discuss moves of units to the indigenous designations, provided we follow the WP:Reliable Sources. If the RSs - priority Greek sources - all say XX Armoured Division, it really should be at XX Armd Div rather than 20th. Cheers and again very many thanks to you both. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:45, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Regarding the numerals, it is not so simple. First, internationally, the typical format is commonly used to refer to Greek units (Arabic numerals for divisions, Roman for corps, etc.), so that plays a role. Second, the Greek system cannot be reproduced accurately, because the corps use Greek numerals, for which the closest equivalent would be the Roman numerals rather than "A Corps" etc. Third, Greek usage is not entirely consistent either, with a few divisions being designated with Arabic numerals. I'd prefer to keep established practice so far in this regard. Constantine ✍ 07:44, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that. If the corps are standardised on Greek lettering, I would rather go with that and use the correct symbols (we can set up lots of redirects as required) but it's your field and WP does this in a very decentralised way, so would not want to overrule you two. What are the symbols in question? - Alpha, Beta, Gamma etc? I ask this because these are used as standard on star designations etc - standard scientific terminology. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:38, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Corps numbering/lettering in the Hellenic Army are Greek letters (Α, Β, Γ, Δ, Ε). I've noticed that Roman Numerals have been used for these in WP. The question is, given it's English Wikipedia, are there rules against using the Greek lettering, or do we use the transliteration (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Epsilon) - which can be quite cumbersome? The problem is if we use Greek lettering, how does a non-Greek user search for a particular Corps? Like Constantine mentioned, inconsistency with the Greek unit designation has always been a problem. Dragases (talk) 03:30, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

A non-Greek user would use either "G" Corps or "Gamma" Corps, and get redirected to Γ Army Corps (Greece). That would be my view.

But WP:MILMOS#UNITNAME says '..A name originally in a language other than English should be adapted by translating common terms (such as designations of size and type) and transliterating the remainder of the name. The choice of which components of the name are to be translated (and how) should follow the conventions employed by reputable historical works on the topic; some collected recommendations for specific terms are maintained by the relevant national task forces. The original name should be provided in the first sentence of the article, following the translated name; for example: The 3rd Mountain Division (3. Gebirgs-Division) was... or Boden Fortress (Swedish: Bodens fästning) is....

Names should generally follow the stylistic conventions used by the service or country of origin. For example, while US and British usage has spelled-out numerals for army-level formations and Roman numerals for corps, editors writing about different countries should follow those countries' normal usages; thus, "3. Panzer Armee" becomes "3rd Panzer Army", and "18-ya Armiya" becomes "18th Army".

Now, you two are blazing the trail here after previous over-enthusiastic over-English-afying. How do you two wish to handle Greek corps designations, especially given the line about following the conventions employed by reputable historical works on the topic? Personally I think the original names should at the very least be in the first line as per the guideline. Buckshot06 (talk) 04:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I recommend we start with breaking-up this article into three/four articles and see if the format works. If it does, then we can begin to tackle the other Greek units' articles (and any consistency with the unit designations). Are we in agreement that there should be four stubs/articles? Dragases (talk) 06:56, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

4th Infantry Brigade (Greece)
15th Infantry Division (Greece)
15th Infantry Brigade (Greece)
15th Infantry Regiment (Greece)

Agreed. Constantine ✍ 08:43, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Excellent. Then I defer to you, Constantine. If you can split-up/create the stubs, I can modify the content and also see if I can find more information about these units and start to build-up the articles. I also agree with Buckshot06 - we should feature prominently the original designations in the first line/paragraph of the article. Cheers! Dragases (talk) 12:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, I'll get to it tomorrow... Constantine ✍ 19:22, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Completely agree with Dragases - start with these four pages, that's just fine. Corps and other designations can wait. Just make sure everything is well referenced is the key thing, in line with WP:RS. Feel free to ask my help as you wish. Finally, WT:GREECE should be notified for any other Greek input. Buckshot06 (talk) 20:42, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Should I assume that Greek divisions were two-brigade organisations originally, and thus redlink in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Infantry Brigade in the 1st and 2nd Division articles? Also, wouldn't the 15th Brigade have been part of the 8th Division in the 1900s ish period? Buckshot06 (talk) 06:18, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes to the first, but there were only three divisions in the 1900s. The 8th Division was not formed until the First Balkan War. Constantine ✍ 06:55, 31 July 2015 (UTC)