Talk:1924 Palace Law of Succession

Use of Handley's biography used as major reference, and issues that result

This article relies heavily on Handley's biography of King Bhumibol, as it appears to be the only quality english-language work that provides details about the Palace Law. I wish there were other authoritative works that I could use as cross references, but I have found none to date. Patiwat 22:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Why were Juthatutch/Chudadhuj Dharadilok/Jutatoot/เจ้าฟ้าจุฑาธุชธราดิลก's descendants disqualified?

One issue with Handley's otherwise fine work is that he notes that the descendants of 2 of Queen Saovabha's sons were disqualified from the succession, one because his mother was a maid, and another because his mother was a foreigner. The half-foreign prince is obviously Chula Chakrabongse, son of Chakrabongse Bhuvanath. The disqualification of half-foreign princes from the line of succession is clear from the law passed by King Vajiravudh - he could have repealed it, but he didn't. But who was the prince who was the son of a maid? Presumably Varananda Dhavaj/Waranonthawach/Waranonthawat/พระองค์เจ้าวรานนท์ธวัช, only son Juthatutch/Chudadhuj Dharadilok/Jutatoot/เจ้าฟ้าจุฑาธุชธราดิลก. But was Waranonthawat's mother really a "maid", as Handley calls her? His mother was Boonjirathorn Chumphon/หม่อมเจ้าหญิงบุญจิราธร ชุมพล, who in turn was daughter of Chumphonsomphot/พระองค์เจ้าชุมพลสมโภช (son of King Rama IV) and หม่อมบุญยืน (grand-daughter of the เจ้าเมือง of Ubonratchathani). Boonjirathorn Chumphon wasn't a maid, even though her bloodline wasn't that inbred/royal - regardless, she wasn't really a commoner either. Regardless, it appears that Vajiravudh specifically disqualified the entire bloodline of the Jutatoot bloodline from the throne for marrying with "commoners." Could somebody explain this particular issue? Patiwat 22:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Note: the above details come from the Thai wikipedia. Unfortunately, the Thai wikipedia is a joke, because editors almost never cite their sources. Patiwat 22:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• I figured it out. Waranonthawat is not the son of Boonjirathorn Chumphon. He was son of Rawee Kaiyanon, a commoner, and quite probably, a maid. His father had no legitimate children with his official royal blooded wife. Patiwat 00:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Clarification

Does this mean that Thailand effectively has male primogeniture, but that the ruling monarch may at her or his discretion decide to appoint another person of royal blood to be his or her successor? —Nightstallion (?) 18:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• Essentially, yes. The law relies on male primogeniture, but also says that it can be amended solely by the King, i.e., without having to go through the parliamentary process. So effectively, the King can appoint anybody, of any sex, he wants. Patiwat 23:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Okay, thanks! How likely is it that the current king would introduce reforms to make it gender-equal primogeniture? —Nightstallion (?) 06:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Highly unlikely, given that he's had the constitutional right to do so for the past few decades, but hasn't bothered doing it. Sorry for the late response. Patiwat 12:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• No problem, and thanks! —Nightstallion (?) 19:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The 1924 law provides for male primogeniture, but this is not reality. Under male primogeniture, Prince Juthavachara, the eldest son of the crown prince, would be second in line. Juthavachara has no public profile and is not becoming king under any circumstances. As for Prince Dipangkorn, the Privy Council will not be putting a five-year-old on the throne whatever the succession law might say. If something was to happened to the crown prince, Princess Sirindorn would likely become successor, although that doesn't follow primogeniture, let alone male primogeniture. The constitution was modified in 1974 to allow for female succession. What kind of male primogeniture allows for female succession? Not even King Bhumipol is qualified under the 1924 rules, since his mother is a commoner. The real law of succession is that the Privy Council will name someone when the throne becomes vacant. When the king dies, the army chief (currently General Prayuth) will become Thailand's boss, so any decision will have to run by him as well. Kauffner (talk) 09:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Removal of incorrect line of succession

What I have removed

The current line of Succession is:

1. H.R.H. Crown Prince of Thailand Maha Vajiralongkorn (Son and the heir apparent of King Rama IX, the current king)
2. H.R.H. Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn (The second daughter of King Rama IX and younger sister of No.1.) She was officially promoted as “Somdet Phra Theprat Ratsuda Chao Fa Maha Chakri Sirindhorn Ratthasima Khunakon Piyachat Sayam Borommaratchakumari” and to be the second in line to the throne on December 5, 1977 since then.
3. H.R.H Princess Chulabhorn Valailak (Youngest daughter of King Rama IX)

The grounds for removal

I have removed the incorrect line of succession and placed such information above, for the reason that, according to the Palace Law in conjunction with the current Constitution, the correct line is as follows:

(Note: "Descendant" means child, grand child, great grand child, great great grand child, and so on.)

1. If Phumiphon Adunyadet is no more, Maha Wachiralongkon (Crown Prince) will be enthroned.
2. If Maha Wachiralongkon is no more, Phatcharakittiyapha (Maha Wachiralongkon's first child), will be enthroned.
3. If Phatcharakittiyapha is no more, Siriwanwari Narirat (Maha Wachiralongkon's second child) will be enthroned, unless Phatcharakittiyapha has any descendant, it will be such descendant. And if such descedant (Maha Wachiralongkon's grand child / Phatcharakittiyapha's child) is also no more, but he/she has any descendant (Maha Wachiralongkon's great grand child / Phatcharakittiyapha's grand child), it will that descendant until there's no any direct-line descendant of Phatcharakittiyapha.
4. If Siriwanwari Narirat is no more and there's no any of her descendants, Thipangkon Ratsamichot (Maha Wachiralongkon's third child) will be enthroned.
5. If Thipangkon Ratsamichot is no more, and there's no any of his descendants, Sirinthon (Maha Wachiralongkon's first younger sister) will be enthroned.
6. If Sirinthon is no more, and there's no any of his decendants, Chulaphon Walailak (Maha Wachiralongkon's second younger sister) will be enthroned.
7. If Chulaphon Walailak is no more, any of her descendants will be enthroned according to the closeness of blood-line.

Question: The section of the Thai constitution allowing a princess to take the throne:

ในกรณีที่ราชบัลลังก์หากว่างลงและเป็นกรณีที่พระมหากษัตริย์มิได้ทรงแต่งตั้งพระรัชทายาทไว้ ตามวรรคหนึ่ง ให้คณะองคมนตรีเสนอพระนามผู้สืบราชสันตติวงศ์ตามมาตรา ๒๐ ต่อคณะรัฐมนตรี เพื่อเสนอต่อรัฐสภาเพื่อรัฐสภาให้ความเห็นชอบ ในการนี้ จะเสนอพระนามพระราชธิดาก็ได้ เมื่อรัฐสภา ให้ความเห็นชอบแล้ว ให้ประธานรัฐสภาอัญเชิญองค์ผู้สืบราชสันตติวงศ์ขึ้นทรงราชย์เป็นพระมหากษัตริย์สืบไป แล้วให้ประธานรัฐสภาประกาศให้ประชาชนทราบ

In particular to be specific it is translated as "princess" but in Thai it is "พระราชธิดา" which technically means "daughter of the monarch". Therefore, the two princesses which are Princess Chulabhorn's daughters should not be included in the line of succcession, at least not unless their mother first ascends to the throne as Queen Regnant. The line should skip them otherwise. If they are to be included, then other princesses should also be included, in particular princesses of rank Mom Chao in the House of Yukol (descended from Rama V) should come before the male Mom Chao princes from the line of Rama IV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.154.82.171 (talk) 18:08, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I will arrange and insert the correct line as soon as possible.

—— Clumsily  • Talk | 2010.12.10, 21:59 hours (ICT)

Why put the crown prince's daughters ahead of Prince Dipangkorn? This assumes gender-neutral primogeniture. The 1924 law specifies male primogeniture, but there are only two qualified males -- the crown prince and Dipangkorn. After that, it would be "a princess," according to the constitution. Thailand has seven qualified princesses. The order for female succession isn't stated, but I am assuming primogeniture. Kauffner (talk) 10:59, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.parliament.go.th/files/library/law2e-b.htm
  • In 1924 Palace Law of Succession on 2011-05-25 02:50:48, 404 Not Found
  • In 1924 Palace Law of Succession on 2011-06-02 03:16:05, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 03:16, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing that can be done about the dead links but grin and bear it. The gov't has taken down the sites and blocked access by archive services such as the Wayback Machine and WebCite. This is entirely consistent with polices that go back to time immemorial, when it was once taboo to discuses the health of the king, and now taboo to discuss the health of the succession process.4. It was taboo to inquire after the King's health.

—Pawyilee (talk) 16:12, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:04, 9 January 2020 (UTC)